WAG Seeing the previous events' scores

[gymcoach1]

I've sat next to judges at many meets and have many times heard them make comments on the scores on other events. I don't think it would matter that much to dramatically effect their scores. But they do say things like "Yikes she's having a rough meet" or "wow this kids going to be good"

 

[gymdog]

I still think that to improve the objectivity of judging, the previous event's score should not be seen. I also think the order of competition should be randomized, like in States, but that's a different thread.

This is actually a huge pain because it requires the bars to be set between almost every routine with the kids in a random order (usually, compulsory coaches set the bar order by what their setting is). There can be a big range in compulsory level 4 and 5 for example between 7 year olds and kids who are the size of teenagers using the bars almost all the way out. So I don't think most coaches are in favor of this,mint just creates hassle for very little payoff. I don't think the judges really care in which order the kids appear.

 

[Yuenling]

This is actually a huge pain because it requires the bars to be set between almost every routine with the kids in a random order (usually, compulsory coaches set the bar order by what their setting is). There can be a big range in compulsory level 4 and 5 for example between 7 year olds and kids who are the size of teenagers using the bars almost all the way out. So I don't think most coaches are in favor of this,mint just creates hassle for very little payoff. I don't think the judges really care in which order the kids appear.

I see! And that's why it's not as bad at States because the kids are already grouped by age, so they are generally closer in size.

 

[gymdog]

I see! And that's why it's not as bad at States because the kids are already grouped by age, so they are generally closer in size.

It's not so bad at state, just one meet. But I'm not sure it makes a big difference either, more teams are rotating together than usual due to the ages being broken up so it just eliminates the hassle of deciding who will go where. But at regular compulsory meets, it just seems like a lot of hassle.

 

[AmandaLynn]

I see! And that's why it's not as bad at States because the kids are already grouped by age, so they are generally closer in size.

Also, at state, many times you will have more coaches in each rotation. Much easier to change bars quickly with 4 coaches (one for each corner of the bars) than with 2...

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I thought states had more then one judge per event??

 

[Deleted member 18037]

My husband watches the judges pen. He knows if our girl is having a good event when the pen hardly moves during her routine.

As far as events go, kids with good form tend to have it on all events ( though I find vault can be an outlier). Sloppy form tends to carry as well.

Really a kids form is not stellar on floor and then sloppy on beam.

My kid had a practice meet a couple weeks ago. I know where she falls compared to relative to her team. Didn't stay to watch. Came back for placement and pick up. When she didn't place on beam I knew she fell. A couple of parents were like no she didn't fall. Turns out she did.

I also find scores relative, so while at times the scores may seem higher or lower they tend to be consistant. And you will hear things like oh that judge is scoring low, but even so the better kids end up with the better "low" scores.

 

[raenndrops]

This is actually a huge pain because it requires the bars to be set between almost every routine with the kids in a random order (usually, compulsory coaches set the bar order by what their setting is). There can be a big range in compulsory level 4 and 5 for example between 7 year olds and kids who are the size of teenagers using the bars almost all the way out. So I don't think most coaches are in favor of this,mint just creates hassle for very little payoff. I don't think the judges really care in which order the kids appear.

We had a meet (Championships) where the head vault judge insisted that the flights vault totally by level (L6-9 and Xcel Platinum were all competing together). The coaches wanted to vault girls in level order by vault height... so all the girls that vault on "2" would go... starting with L6 and working up. Because the head judge said no, our single Xcel Platinum had to wait an hour to vault while the rest of her team had moved on and already competed bars.
I like judges that are flexible much better.

 

[Gymmommy71]

I don't think its that big of a deal to increase how long bars or vault rotations take because floor and beam take so much longer anyways. However, I tend to see less order of performance bias in those 2 events so not a big deal either way IMO. Floor is the worst as far as scores going up as you go along. It might be nice to see floor and beam randomized.

 

[skschlag]

We had a meet (Championships) where the head vault judge insisted that the flights vault totally by level (L6-9 and Xcel Platinum were all competing together). The coaches wanted to vault girls in level order by vault height... so all the girls that vault on "2" would go... starting with L6 and working up. Because the head judge said no, our single Xcel Platinum had to wait an hour to vault while the rest of her team had moved on and already competed bars.
I like judges that are flexible much better.

HOw did that happen? Do you just have kiddos rotate when done? We all wait until each group is done to rotate to the next event.

 

[chalkbowl]

My husband watches the judges pen. He knows if our girl is having a good event when the pen hardly moves during her routine

A judges pen should be moving during an entire routine, regardless if there are a lot of deductions or not, as every single skill competed should be written out in short hand.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

A judges pen should be moving during an entire routine, regardless if there are a lot of deductions or not, as every single skill competed should be written out in short hand.

Didn't say the pen wasn't moving.

More moving seems to correlate to a lesser score. Husband has been pretty good at prediction so far.

 

[z2akids]

What does everyone mean by randomizing?

At our USAG meets, the girls scores are not recorded on a card that follows them (at least not thst I have seen). The coach puts the girls names in competition order on a card and the scores for that event are written in that card. There is also a volunteer entering those scores in real time into the system so that they are displayed electronically. At the end of s flight, the card with scores is brought to the volunteer in charge of scoring and they confirm that correct scores were entered, etc. Those cards do not travel from event to event. I suppose a judge could catch glimpses of the scores on the electronic monitors, but it wouldn't be easy for them to track 96 girls through 3 other events in order to score them based on their previous event scores.

I do agree that girls who tend to have good form on one event tend to have that hold throughout most events. They may be more or less skilled at the skills on each event, buy pointy toes and tight shapes on beam likely carry over to floor and bars and mean the girl does not get tenthed to death on form in any of the events.

 

[Gym Beam]

My husband watches the judges pen. He knows if our girl is having a good event when the pen hardly moves during her routine.

Hmmm, I prefer to watch my daughter instead of a pen. But hey, what do I know?!

 

[profmom]

I don't think I've ever seen a randomized order of competition for every event. I have seen the following: alphabetical by last name, alphabetical but divided into age groups, somewhat random and either divided by age or not, coaches select one order that carries through entire meet, and coaches select order for each event. I suspect but cannot confirm that the random ones are either order in which our office manager entered the gymnasts or USAG member number. Within each of these systems except for "coaches set order for each event," some meets have the rotation start in the same place and some have a different child kick off the rotation for each event so that the same kids are not first and last on every event at the meet. At boys' states, the coaches traditionally have the guys compete in reverse order of their scores at the previous meet, with some tweaks on events like pbars that require re-setting the equipment. (Yes, when I get bored watching warmups or waiting for a rotation to end, I busy my mind by figuring out the logic behind the day's competition order.)

In all of this, I haven't seen any significant evidence of a later in rotation-higher score correlation that is not covariant with the expected skill level of the gymnast. Mind you, I have not actually gathered the data and performed the statistical test, but that's my general observation.

 

[MeetDirector]

Since for whatever reason I can't quote messages today, let me just say that randomizing is just as the name implies - the competition order of the gymnast's first event is randomly determined. Subsequent events stay in the same order, but with a different lead-off competitor based on dropping down a number of athletes depending on how many are in the rotation group.

And yes, a "random draw" for competition order is required at state championships and above. What I do is to determine my rotation groups (I don't split up gyms) and then I randomly determine what event that group will start on and then I randomly draw (determine) the order of the athletes in that group for their first event. The meet scoring software can randomize the group or you can draw names out of a hat.

 

[raenndrops]

HOw did that happen? Do you just have kiddos rotate when done? We all wait until each group is done to rotate to the next event.

If the event in front was open, they would move up part of the group... our team only had L6, L7, and a Platinum. They were rotating with a couple teams that had L8s and L9s. Because of all the adjusting of the vault and a few score conferences and L8&9 having to wait and getting touch warm ups, vault was running slow. Once our girl got past vault, the other teams we were rotating with let her bump in to warm up and she competed bars as soon as the coach got her score card back (she sent a coach over to expedite retrieval)... so 5 minutes later, she was caught up with her group.
We do continuous rotations at our championships because that is how they do it at YMCA Nationals.

 

[gymdog]

At our USAG meets, the girls scores are not recorded on a card that follows them (at least not thst I have seen). The coach puts the girls names in competition order on a card and the scores for that event are written in that card.

If you use cards for order in your state (as my state does) rather than a heat sheet, then that is probably what we are talking about. The coach hands the scorecards to the judge in order so they are looking at that card when saluting a particular girl to go. In our state each kid has an individual card, I'm not sure if you're talking out one card for the team or not. With the direct entry of scores now the cards are not completely required but all meets in my state still do it because it's kind of expected, plus it's given to the kids at the end. The judges also write down the score on a separate sheet with the competitor number so if there's a problem with the score entry there is still another back up.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Hmmm, I prefer to watch my daughter instead of a pen. But hey, what do I know?!

He is an amazing multitasker and the video guy. You don't need to worry about him or our daughter.

And actually he tends to watch the pen of the key competition more

 

[AgingHippie]

ROTFLMAO