WAG Skill level - if you could choose?

[gymisforeveryone]

I have been wondering the difference between the first competitive levels in different countries. Do you think your levels have equal skills in different events? Do the lower levels build skills and have nice progressions to the optional levels? Do you think there is useless skills in the routines that don't measure the ability of a gymnasts? Would you move some skills to upper/lower levels? Would you add something?

I'll give my example:

We have three different compulsory levels B, C and D (like you have levels 4,5 and 6) but ours are very different to yours.

The most notable differences are floor and bars. We don't do mill circles or front hip circles at all and there is no cast to back hip circle in any levels. We do have long hang pullovers in levels C and D and back hip circle is done straight from there.

Level B bars is done on high strap bar and the routine is:

1) Pull over from dead hang
2) Two casts
3) "Pull over forward" to piked hang
4) Hollow, arch and 4 tap swings

Level C is done on high wooden bar without low bar:

1) Hollow, arch and 1-3 tap swings
2) Kip / Long hang pullover
3) Cast - long hang pullover
4) Back hip circle
5) Underswing to back swing and dismount

Level D is done on uneven bars:

1) Kip
2) Cast - free hip circle to stand on block
3) Pullover
4) Cast - squat on
5) High bar kip / long hang pullover
6) Cast to long hang pullover
7) Back hip circle
8) Underswing and one tap swing
9) Flyaway

(If you don't have a flyaway you can add one high bar kip and do a toe shoot dismount instead)

So as you can see the skill progressions are pretty different to US. I like our routines and I like strap bar and high bar! And if you don't have your kip it doesn't slow you down. And we don't have to waste time doing mill circles

On floor there is one huge difference too. The other skills are much like in USAG routines but unlike your level 4 our level B doesn't have a back handspring. Even level C doesn't have it. It's not competed until level D which is otherwise compared to your level 6....

I don't think we could make our level B's ever do back handsprings! Never. I still wonder how you manage to teach them so early. It's impressive.

I would love to hear your opinions about the compulsories and the skills. What if you could decide the skills that are in routines in lower levels?

 

[Iwannabemargo]

We are different again, we have grades which are an annual national exam , after that each Competition provides its own entry rules, standards and compulsory elements. Usually my lot enter 4 or 5 competitions a year. These will be within the County. There is not set Competition season either, meets are spread out throughout the year.
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[Canadian_gym_mom]

Well here in Ontario (I know someone from another province can better talk about them), there are no compulsory levels. Each level has certain requirements, plus certain restricted skills, but are to be put together in a routine of choice.

Invitational gym is level 2-5 and Provincial levels are 5-9.

So a level 2 bar routine would be a pullover, cast, back hip circle, straddle off. A level 5 bar routine is generally kip, cast, back hip circle, squat on, jump to high bar, kip, pike off.

Level 5 beam would have 2 acro skills but don't have to have connection, but a bonus if they get the connection. It can be anything from front roll to cartwheel, 2 back walkovers, tic toc back walkover, etc. Some do a back tuck dismount, some do a front tuck dismount. No back handsprings are allowed.

Level 5 floor the passes are generally round off back handspring back tuck, and front tuck step out round off back handspring, or front handspring front tuck. They can't do 2 tucks in the same pass. They have to connect 2 leaps but can't do a switch split.

All this being said, Ontario is switching to a totally different system once again for next year, that will apparently be more like the US system, so we are eagerly anticipating what these changes will mean, if competition will start younger, if we will go to compulsory routines, or what.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Your skills are a little closer to ours in Australia, we also don't do front hip circles and stride circles and use the high bar earlier but we transmission between bars.

ours are

Level 4

2 glide swings (and pullover) - glide kip is a bonus
Cast to horizontal
Back hip circle
Bar change (ie squat on and jump to high)
3 tap swings
Long hang pullover
Toe shoot or underswing

level 5
Glide kip
Cast to 45 degree'sabove horizontal
Back hip circle (clear hip is bonus)
Bar change
Long hang kip
toe shoot, underswing or flyaway (layout flyaway is bonus)

level 6
Glide kip
Cast to 45 degree's above horizontal connected to one of the kips
Clear hip circle
Bar change
Long hang kip
(giant is a bonus)
toe shoot, underswing or flyaway (layout flyaway is bonus)

 

[Gymmommy71]

Wow...so the first Aussie level that requires a kip also wants a cast to 45 degrees above horizontal - our L5's (when the kip first becomes a requirement) only need to be AT horizontal and I'd say a lot of them don't make it there. You guys want a cast horizontal the level prior, even before the kip. Aussie's require high casts really early on. Haha - next time my DD is upset about her bars score because of her casts I can tell her "be glad were aren't in Australia!"....

 

[Gymmommy71]

Oh, and to answer the original question, if I could change things in the US compulsories:

First off, I would make the bars easier (yes I'm biased, but it really isn't just my DD that I've seen be perpetually behind on this event...it's like at least half of the gymnasts I see at meets too!). I'd make the L6 bar routine essentially be the L5 routine w/ higher cast requirements and a flyaway (leave the free hip for optionals). I'd make the first half of L5 the same, but put a long hang pullover in instead of the long hang kip. I'd take the shoot through out of L4 and instead give L4 the L3 dismount. I'd also allow straddle up casts in L6, but make the angle requirement be higher for anyone that chooses to do one (like 40 degrees above horizontal if you straddle up, but only 20 if you straight body).

On beam I put in either a front or back tuck dismount in L6 (seems like lots of girls can do these much earlier than they are able to compete them, and they do have progressiveness to them). Besides for that, I actually like the compulsary beam routines as they are (most gymnasts seem to progress along w/ those routines skills-wise over time).

For vault I'd make a half-on be an option instead of the FHS.

For floor I'd put a back tuck in L5, and I'd make L6 do a layout. I'd also require 180 leaps on floor in L6 and I'd take out the split on the ground (c'mon...that split is in every prior level, do they really need to do it again?). I'd also put some form of piroutting element into L6 floor instead of the back extension roll, not that the back extension roll isn't important, but being able to piroutte well is important for higher levels, so a gymnast should be able to do it well at least on floor before heading to optionals. I may even put a press handstand into L6 floor too (another good thing to make everyone have before optionals).

Oh, and of course, the biggest thing I'd change is to get rid of that horrible mill circle from bars! It doesn't belong in any compulsary level!

All these suggestions come from my experience of watching a variety of gymnasts progress through the US compulsary levels for the past 5 years...my opinions as a parent observer .

 

[Aussie_coach]

Wow...so the first Aussie level that requires a kip also wants a cast to 45 degrees above horizontal - our L5's (when the kip first becomes a requirement) only need to be AT horizontal and I'd say a lot of them don't make it there. You guys want a cast horizontal the level prior, even before the kip. Aussie's require high casts really early on. Haha - next time my DD is upset about her bars score because of her casts I can tell her "be glad were aren't in Australia!"....

Lots of kids lose points on the cast. We have a few very difficult requirements. On floor we require 180 degree split leaps before we require any tumbling skill harder than a round off.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

We used to have those 45 degree cast requirements before but now the routines changed like every 4th year and they changed the requirements also. I am a judge also and when there was a 45 degree cast in level B bar routine I NEVER EVER saw a gymnast do it that high during four years....

Now 45 degree cast is not required until level D.

We also used to have 180 split jumps and leaps in every competitive level and in level B there was even a 180 degree scale position on floor. That was so funny because those were ABSOLUTELY NEVER seen in competitions either. I'm happy they have now changed those ridiculous hard requirements and level B only requires 90 degrees scale position on beam and 135 degree split jumps (both legs thought) on floor. In level C and up there is 180 degree split jump / leap / sissone jumps requirement on floor AND on beam. But there is options which jumps/leaps to choose.

You are also required to make your own choreography starting from level B. The order of skills can't be changed but you can do as many steps, dance moves etc as you want to.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

BG are really pushing split leaps, the requirement from the lowest levels is a minimum of 160 degree split to not been deducted. I would like to see harder vaults allowed. Its rediculous to be still doing flat backs for so long in grades. Other than that there is a clear progression and I don't think too many "useless' moves

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[gymisforeveryone]

Oh, vault. I would have so much to say about vault. I just went to a judging course (all the judges are asked to go and update their knowledge every 4th year). Our compulsory vaults are

Level B: Straight jump from running onto 60cm block

Level C: Handstand flat back (well not actually flat back because blocking is required) onto 100cm mat

Level D: Front handspring onto 100cm mat

Vault judging have changed a lot. Some deductions are completely taken away (like dynamics). So now you can score middle 7's even if you only do a forward roll in level C. Most of the judges found this ridiculous... Actually it's HARD to score under 8 in any levels with any kind of vault. Earlier there used to be a "dismount" in vault also (a straight jump off the mat in levels B and C and a front tuck in level D) but they took it away. So that makes the scores even higher. And the gymnasts don't understand that actually they vaulted pretty badly even if the score was 8. something. Even 9.0 isn't that good always. And in other events if you get 8 that was a REALLY nice routine and 9 is super super good, almost perfect.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Wow...so the first Aussie level that requires a kip also wants a cast to 45 degrees above horizontal - our L5's (when the kip first becomes a requirement) only need to be AT horizontal and I'd say a lot of them don't make it there. You guys want a cast horizontal the level prior, even before the kip. Aussie's require high casts really early on. Haha - next time my DD is upset about her bars score because of her casts I can tell her "be glad were aren't in Australia!"....

Also tell your daughter that the deductions are at least double what they are in JO.

Australia requires horizontal casts at level one! So you see plenty of kids with great technique loosing the requirement plus deductions for height. Then you have the kids doing awful things to get the minimum to count. In the long run, those who sacrifice score for good technique are rewarded, would be nice if we asked for less angles and more quality of performance (in many places of the requirements).

We also require kids to swing at level two, which is far too early for most kids in the recommended age/training hours for the program. Then after level four we never require swinging again. Swinging is the biggest part of bars imho. Kips and casts, they are just there to get you in a handstand ready to swing. I remember one coach saying that kids should be able to swing by level four and why are we getting rid of the long kip bonus for level fours. I don't know of any high level gymnasts who peaked their swinging ability at level four (or equivalent).