WAG Some news on Geddert himself - suspended

[suds]

How to implement it all though... sigh

Here is a good use for the money from the “Used-To-Be-A-Sponsor-Of-USAG” crowd:

Sponsor several multi-million dollar grants, with layered stages of implementation, for a team of child development experts to advise USOC / USAG on re-thinking how gymnastics coaches should be interacting with children.

It's a win-win situation:

Corporations that still have their hands "Dirty" from being associated with USAG can very publicly be part of the solution. From C-Suite perspective, the positive PR would be redemptive - especially if given the public stamp of approval by 2012 and 2016 Olympians.

Children / Athletes win by having a significantly improved training environment moving forward due to a team of child development experts setting the expectations for interactions.

USAG wins, because they can defer to a team of nationally recognized experts to guide them.

Coaches win, because everyone is not independently, in their own gym, trying to re-invent the wheel based on where they perceive the boundary lines to be.​

With USAG seemingly hanging on by a thread at this point, I'm not sure USAG would have much to lose by trying this approach.

P&G, Kellogg's, AT & T, USAG, and USOC: Your move.

 

[mdot]

Are there any parents out there who voiced concern over coaching methods and saw change for the better for speaking up? I feel like I often hear "...but she gets good results" or "...but this is the only gym in the area" attached to a list of worrisome coaching behaviors from parents.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Are there any parents out there who voiced concern over coaching methods and saw change for the better for speaking up? I feel like I often hear "...but she gets good results" or "...but this is the only gym in the area" attached to a list of worrisome coaching behaviors from parents.

The gym that treated my DD so poorly (I say it was an abusive place, but that’s a different part of this conversation) went out of business a few months after we left. I would say that’s change for the better. If they won’t change they shouldn’t be in a business with kids. That’s my opinion anyway.

 

[Flippin'A]

Are there any parents out there who voiced concern over coaching methods and saw change for the better for speaking up? I feel like I often hear "...but she gets good results" or "...but this is the only gym in the area" attached to a list of worrisome coaching behaviors from parents.

There was a gym near me growing up that a few of my friends switched to. Ironically, they switched to get away from the domineering HC at our gym, but it turned out that the upper optional coach at the other gym was even worse. I won't go into all the details, but let's just say his tactics were Geddert-esque. He wasn't the head coach, though, so a number of older gymnasts and parents got together and went as a group to complain about him to HC. At first it appeared to work. Head coach was receptive and felt awful that she hadn't noticed the abuse. She fired him later that week and I remember one of my friends calling to tell me because she was so relieved.

Two months later, the gym had been unable to find another coach capable of doing 9 or 10, so they brought him back. Suddenly he hadn't been fired, but merely "suspended" and had been told how to change his coaching methods and would be supervised more closely. The whole thing was a fiasco. He went from "tough" to downright vindictive. He was clearly angry at a few of the girls he knew spoke out and they all ended up quitting. Head coach insisted that it was either bring him back or get rid of upper optionals altogether, and obviously thought that would be ridiculous (because putting the wellbeing of children ahead of gymnastics progression would be absurd. I hope you sense my sarcasm.) And as far as I know he's still coaching there all these years later.

This is the only time I was personally aware of gymnasts or parents speaking out about a coach. And as you can see, it didn't go great. The attitude that results outweigh safety is huge in this sport, and I think it's at the root of a lot of these issues. I think a lot of times parents and coaches lose sight of the fact that children are only going to be gymnasts for a few years, but they're going to be humans their whole lives. So making sure that they become the best adjusted/healthiest humans they can be needs to take a front seat, even if it means team USA has to sacrifice a few medals along the way.

 

[GymFan96]

So making sure that they become the best adjusted/healthiest humans they can be needs to take a front seat, even if it means team USA has to sacrifice a few medals along the way.

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment? How about don’t put whiny/bratty kids on the team then you won’t have to resort to yelling, screaming, threats etc to get them to work hard. I think Chow, Mihai, and Aimee Boorman are good examples of coaches who got great results without the harsh tactics. Probably because they know better ways to motivate, and/or they don’t even take on kids who don’t want to work hard in the first place. It’s all about knowing how to pick your battles.

 

[tucktwisttumble]

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment? How about don’t put whiny/bratty kids on the team then you won’t have to resort to yelling, screaming, threats etc to get them to work hard. I think Chow, Mihai, and Aimee Boorman are good examples of coaches who got great results without the harsh tactics. Probably because they know better ways to motivate, and/or they don’t even take on kids who don’t want to work hard in the first place. It’s all about knowing how to pick your battles.

They're KIDS. Sure as they get older they will mature. But even adults have whiny and bratty days. I wouldn't expect them to be perfect 100% of the time - and neither should the coaches in my opinion....


Side note :

Gah! I've exceeded my monthly limit of 5 articles... Can you give a summary?

You can refresh your cookies, and view the article

 

[Flippin'A]

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment? How about don’t put whiny/bratty kids on the team then you won’t have to resort to yelling, screaming, threats etc to get them to work hard. I think Chow, Mihai, and Aimee Boorman are good examples of coaches who got great results without the harsh tactics. Probably because they know better ways to motivate, and/or they don’t even take on kids who don’t want to work hard in the first place. It’s all about knowing how to pick your battles.

The kids I knew who went through this were not anyone's idea of whiny or bratty. Adults who choose to mistreat children don't do it because there's something wrong with the children, they do it because there's something wrong with them. I support redirecting kids who don't have the drive to a less strenuous path when appropriate, but to act as though the only reason coaches become abusive is because of personality flaws of their gymnasts is to blame the victim.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

Totally agree. The kids I saw who I felt were being verbally and emotionally abused were the hardest working Kindergartners you will ever meet in your life. It was a coach philosophy. Who the kid was didn't make a difference.

To say the coaches only abuse the kids because the kids won't work or are bratty shows that someone doesn't actually understand what motivates abusers. There is a multitude of research available on this topic.

 

[Flyaway]

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment? How about don’t put whiny/bratty kids on the team then you won’t have to resort to yelling, screaming, threats etc to get them to work hard. I think Chow, Mihai, and Aimee Boorman are good examples of coaches who got great results without the harsh tactics. Probably because they know better ways to motivate, and/or they don’t even take on kids who don’t want to work hard in the first place. It’s all about knowing how to pick your battles.

Did you have kids? I'm pretty sure even the most hard working kid is going to be whiny some days. Even Simone says she went through a bratty phase. The child you're describing doesn't exist. Now can coaches learn to coach bratty, whiny kids without harsh tactics? You bet. But even Aimee said she sent Simone home early some days.

 

[merritt]

They're KIDS. Sure as they get older they will mature. But even adults have whiny and bratty days. I wouldn't expect them to be perfect 100% of the time - and neither should the coaches in my opinion...

This. They’re children. They should be treated with respect even when they misbehave or act up (as should adults).

 

[sce]

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment? How about don’t put whiny/bratty kids on the team then you won’t have to resort to yelling, screaming, threats etc to get them to work hard. I think Chow, Mihai, and Aimee Boorman are good examples of coaches who got great results without the harsh tactics. Probably because they know better ways to motivate, and/or they don’t even take on kids who don’t want to work hard in the first place. It’s all about knowing how to pick your battles.

Do you seriously think abusive behavior is in response to whiny/bratty children? Do you think Dominique Moceanu, Jordan Weiber, Kaitlyn Oahshi etc. were not hard workers? They all report abusive coaching behavior. I am truly in disbelief of this entire post.

 

[LindyHopper]

So making sure that they become the best adjusted/healthiest humans they can be needs to take a front seat, even if it means team USA has to sacrifice a few medals along the way.

Why does it have to even be a balance of medals vs a non-abusive environment?

The thing that is being forgotten here is how many gymnasts who have absolutely NO hope of even making their regional teams that are being abused by coaches.

It's not only high-level gymnasts who are emotionally abused etc.

 

[duyetanh]

But what is abuse? I think we can all agree that dropping some kid in a spotting belt on the bars for not making a correction is way over the line. But what about the following scenarios?

• Kid does back handsprings with hands turned out. Coach corrects. Kid repeats. Coach corrects. Kid repeats. Coach assigns 20 rope climbs and 200 pushups.
  
• Kid won't go for beam acro that she's been competing all season. Coach tells kid she's not allowed to work on anything else. Kid still won't go. Coach leaves kid on beam for the next three hours, assigning 20 pushups for every balk on the high beam.
  
• Coach explains drill. Kid doesn't hear because not listening and does it totally wrong. Coach sends kid down to work with lower level group for the rest of practice after commenting sarcastically that the kid clearly needs more supervision.
  
• Kid complains of "hot hands." Coach insists on full pbar workout with hanging because there's a meet coming up.
• Kid falls off of beam/horse on a stupid skill that's been in the kid's routine for four years. Coach throws a shoe at kid. Or, if you don't like that idea, what about a foam block?
• Several kids fall on BWO on beam/mushroom circles at the meet. Coach sets assignment of 100 stuck BWO/100 mushroom circles for the group at the next practice after the meet.

We might characterize at least some of these scenarios as abusive, but I don't think it's always that easy to determine what constitutes a crime. I'm not sure any of the above scenarios would provoke interest in most police or prosecutors, though in light of the furor, I could imagine someone getting creative and bringing charges. And I am just going to guess that we couldn't even get unanimity on all of the scenarios above. (Note that I'm not tipping my own hand here.)

If some practices that do occur, are known to occur, and lie within industry norms could possibly cross the line, is it fair to hold people criminally accountable? What would make it fair to enforce criminal standards against behavior that is within, even just barely within, industry norms? It just seems to me that the criminal code is a blunt and inefficient instrument here. It might be a small part of the solution, but I don't think it can be the go to.

I think these scenarios are horrible, and hate that they exist in gyms today.

 

[GymFan96]

They're KIDS. Sure as they get older they will mature. But even adults have whiny and bratty days. I wouldn't expect them to be perfect 100% of the time - and neither should the coaches in my opinion....


Side note :


You can refresh your cookies, and view the article

The kids I knew who went through this were not anyone's idea of whiny or bratty. Adults who choose to mistreat children don't do it because there's something wrong with the children, they do it because there's something wrong with them. I support redirecting kids who don't have the drive to a less strenuous path when appropriate, but to act as though the only reason coaches become abusive is because of personality flaws of their gymnasts is to blame the victim.

Totally agree. The kids I saw who I felt were being verbally and emotionally abused were the hardest working Kindergartners you will ever meet in your life. It was a coach philosophy. Who the kid was didn't make a difference.

To say the coaches only abuse the kids because the kids won't work or are bratty shows that someone doesn't actually understand what motivates abusers. There is a multitude of research available on this topic.

Did you have kids? I'm pretty sure even the most hard working kid is going to be whiny some days. Even Simone says she went through a bratty phase. The child you're describing doesn't exist. Now can coaches learn to coach bratty, whiny kids without harsh tactics? You bet. But even Aimee said she sent Simone home early some days.

This. They’re children. They should be treated with respect even when they misbehave or act up (as should adults).

Do you seriously think abusive behavior is in response to whiny/bratty children? Do you think Dominique Moceanu, Jordan Weiber, Kaitlyn Oahshi etc. were not hard workers? They all report abusive coaching behavior. I am truly in disbelief of this entire post.

The thing that is being forgotten here is how many gymnasts who have absolutely NO hope of even making their regional teams that are being abused by coaches.

It's not only high-level gymnasts who are emotionally abused etc.

Sorry I think everyone is misunderstanding my post, and I worded it badly. I was trying to say that most gymnasts CAN be motivated by nurturing, positive coaching. And that many, like the ones I named would still work hard no matter the environment.

I was just saying that if you have tried everything, and believe a certain kid will ONLY respond to a harsh/abusive styles then it’s better to cut the kid loose than to resort to that. Not everyone is entitled to be on team.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

Yeah, I've never seen a good coach resort to nasty tactics because of the personality of the kid. I think that's kind of a red herring here. Good people who don't abuse kids, don't suddenly become abusive because they have a tough kid.

In the vein of things that police don't care about that are probably/definitely abusive: A girl in DD's training group had poor flexibility. BWOs were a nightmare for her to learn. She was a tough, strong kid who didn't complain. Practices at this gym were very intense, tons of conditioning, NO down time. End of practice is BWOs and she only gets a couple, collapses on the rest. Is complaining that her wrist hurts. Coach lets everyone else go, but keeps her. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. 20 minutes after practice it's now been 35 minutes of failed back walkovers, she's got tears streaming down her face, cradling her wrist; she's collapsing every time. What experienced coach believes that ANYTHING done at this point is going to be productive? She just wanted to win. Against a 6 year old. Again. Again. Again.

Different kid, also not flexible. One station on bars is skin the cats. And they mean PERFECT skin the cats. Well you can only do a perfect skin the cat if you can basically get your nose to your knees in a pike. It's clear she's not physically able to do this station. Instead of accepting the best the girl can do on the skill, or moving her instead to something to help her flexibility, coach (same coach) just keeps her on the same station the whole bars rotation. Until the girl is so exhausted that she falls off on her head. And then gets sat out for crying.

These were things done in full view of the watching parents, unabashedly. What was being said in the back of the gym where we couldn't hear was awful and constant.

 

[BachFlyer]

Yeah, I've never seen a good coach resort to nasty tactics because of the personality of the kid. I think that's kind of a red herring here. Good people who don't abuse kids, don't suddenly become abusive because they have a tough kid.

Excellent point.

As to the rest of your post, I can't "like" it. It is just hurts my heart so much when I read that all typed out. Good God, what are we doing to our kids? I mean really - what is the goal? Why IS sport so dang important to us adults that we tolerate it? I think about all of this young women, some barely older than toddlers, and how much they must adore this sport to keep coming back for more every day in the face of such negativity. I often wonder how much more of the joy they feel for gymnastics they could channel into success (not necessarily medals but personal success) if only their coaches would be kind. Not "borderline-non-abusive" but instead extraordinarily NICE to them. I think about school - my kids love learning, and much of that is due to some rock-star teachers who made them love it when they were young, who believed in them and encouraged and supported the efforts they were putting in, who gave grace when they made a mistake, who led and gave the opportunity to the kids to take turns leading. My YDD was terrified when she started Kindergarten. She was exceedingly shy. What if she had been made to stand out on the playground, alone, shamed, maybe in the cold, being yelled at or ignored until she just "decided" to make friends? Instead, her teacher gently encouraged her, supported her, and now in high school she is the go-to kid whenever her group or teacher needs a spokes-person. Not a reserved bone in her body. I can't IMAGINE what it would have done to her soul to have a tyrant for a teacher back then. I can't IMAGINE the fit I would have thrown if that would have been the case.

I agree that the law can't intervene in such a grey area as it currently is set up. Perhaps there is a way to change what constitutes abuse in the world of sports. I feel like the child endangerment laws could come into play somehow? The trouble is that even if somehow we could define and then lobby for better protections, that takes time. We need to change the culture NOW.

 

[profmom]

I feel compelled to note that it's not just gymnastics! But to me, that merely underlines more forcefully the need for cultural change. I think law can play a role, but law standing alone cannot cause cultural change in most cases.

I also found Sk8ermaiden's post to be very saddening.

 

[BachFlyer]

I feel compelled to note that it's not just gymnastics! But to me, that merely underlines more forcefully the need for cultural change. I think law can play a role, but law standing alone cannot cause cultural change in most cases.

Definitely not just gymnastics! I think gym is a different animal in the way that parents are so encouraged to stay out of things, and the higher practice hours, and the general obedience and over-achieving nature of the athletes, which makes for a more secretive, more compliant, and less-safe environment. But I have been to many a basketball or soccer game with not only the coach screaming from the sidelines but also the parents, and walked away just appalled! And dare I say even grateful for the politeness and relative sanity that is required of us!

Somewhere in between these extremes must lie a sweet spot of balance, where the kids are pushed hard but not damaged, and the parents are welcomed but not allowed to be insane!

 

[raenndrops]

Definitely not just gymnastics! I think gym is a different animal in the way that parents are so encouraged to stay out of things, and the higher practice hours, and the general obedience and over-achieving nature of the athletes, which makes for a more secretive, more compliant, and less-safe environment. But I have been to many a basketball or soccer game with not only the coach screaming from the sidelines but also the parents, and walked away just appalled! And dare I say even grateful for the politeness and relative sanity that is required of us!

Somewhere in between these extremes must lie a sweet spot of balance, where the kids are pushed hard but not damaged, and the parents are welcomed but not allowed to be insane!

Definitely not just gymnastics.
My dad wouldnt let me play football in Jr. High because he knew how good I was and that I would love it and the coaches would be impressed... The 7th grade coaches were great - not abusive at all, caring, encouraging, tough but fair. So were the 8th grade coaches. The problem was that my dad knew I would be on the Varsity high school team by 10th grade year and would be coached by a misogynist, borderline abusive coach and he refused to subject me to that, even though it was what I wanted (I had dreams of college football as early as 2nd grade - crazy for a girl in the late 70s, but whatever... it was my dream).
Some of the gymnastics parents seem to thank that "since Suzy's coaches right now are fine, we can have her at this big name gym even though, if she gets to a high level, she will have this other coach who is borderline (or outright) abusive." It's craziness. There are guys whose parents let them play for the high school football team knowing how the coach was. They did so because their sons loved football and the coach was "good." We did go to State playoffs a couple years in a row while I was in high school, but the trade offs some of the guys faced (mostly those who were varsity, but NOT first string) were not good: higher injury rates, more punishment "conditioning" during 2-a-days in the summer, more emotional abuse, and 1 suicide No bueno.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I still think the best way to start pushing for immediate change in culture is with the almighty dollar. Money will always have the strongest voice. Verbally and mentally abusive coaches exist in part because we still support them with our tuition money. If more parents would denounce these tactics and instead place our children in gyms with supportive coaches, these old coaches would either be forced to change or would go out of business. A lot of power lies with our tuition money. The problem is that some parents care more about success instead of their childrens’ emotional well being and will always overlook those behaviors as long as the child is winning medals.