Parents That lady you hate on Twitter

[JBS]

Bottom line... the culture is changing... slowly... but it is.

If your gym is a "roller coaster"... then the question is why?

There are thousands and thousands of youth athletes that have very good journeys in youth sport. The thing is... they are getting on a regular train that goes somewhere... not a roller coaster... a roller coaster takes you for the same crazy ride over and over and each and every time... IT ENDS UP BACK IN THE SAME SPOT.

 

[Tigtimes]

Bottom line... the culture is changing... slowly... but it is.

Well I hope you are right but I do not see it. Kids, young ones, are still in the gym for insane hours all over social media and I do not belong to any those groups and I see it. When they burn out there is another right behind. Parents feed on it. Gyms feed on it. The push for that college scholarship has only gotten worse.

I pose a question to you as a coach. You have intagram for your gym, you have a 16 yr old level 9 and a 10 year old level 9. Who gets posted the most and tagged. Well it’s the 10 year old, usually with some comment saying “ only _ years old “ or some reference to age. Don’t believe me look around at gyms in your area.

Yes there are many youth athletes that have good journeys but the athletes that are allowed to participate in the journey has gotten narrower and narrower. Few kids play more than one sport or are even allowed to attempt it - rules of many club sports won’t allow it. The come from behind kid who matures later is a thing of the past cause kids are selected at such a young age.

I hope your statement is right and it is changing but as a parent in our 10th competitive year it looks exactly the same if not worse in the parent world.

 

[ladybird]

What a great analogy and I hope everyone sees this!

We got off this roller coaster this past summer. Over 30 of my dd’s teammates have either quit all together or are happily continuing in their new gyms. That lady you hate summed it up perfectly. No matter how many times I hear it and how many people I talk to from our former gym it’s the same playbook that these coaches use and everyone thinks they are alone.

Even if nothing comes of it, I think I am finally ready to file a report with USAG. Time’s up!

 

[profmom]

JBS, you are so right. I saw exactly that dynamic play out and was myself used by the problematic parent. The problematic coach (who was working hand in glove with the problematic parent) later left but the toxicity took years to resolve. Now I look back at it, and wow. For what? So much hurtfulness, so much misery, so much ridiculous jockeying for position. Nobody's going to the Olympics, and it's not because the problematic coach left the gym. The gym lost some good athletes though (and I mean lost to the sport), and I believe that in the long run, even the guys who stayed had worse outcomes as a result, including the "star" child.

(Nearing the end of the journey here and can't help feeling somewhat bitter about the way the sport discards boys who are late bloomers, but I suppose that is true of athletics generally.)

 

[JBS]

Sorry of quoting in the wrong order.

Yes there are many youth athletes that have good journeys but the athletes that are allowed to participate in the journey has gotten narrower and narrower. Few kids play more than one sport or are even allowed to attempt it - rules of many club sports won’t allow it. The come from behind kid who matures later is a thing of the past cause kids are selected at such a young age.

I've posted all of this before on this forum...

WAG - Long Term Athlete Development in Gymnastics

EDIT: This is a conversation split out of another thread. You can view that thread at the following link to see how the conversation started... https://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/level-4-much-harder-than-3.63006/page-2#post-562017 The concept of this conversation is basically... "Can...

www.chalkbucket.com

Also check out Project Play...

Project Play - An Initiative of the Aspen Institute

Project Play develops insights, ideas and opportunities to help stakeholders build healthy communities through sports. As the signature initiative of the Sports & Society Program at the Aspen Institute, Project Play offers tools and resources for youth sports, school sports and rec sports admini

www.aspenprojectplay.org

I hope your statement is right and it is changing but as a parent in our 10th competitive year it looks exactly the same if not worse in the parent world.

Well... not from my world... and I'm a parent too.

I pose a question to you as a coach. You have intagram for your gym, you have a 16 yr old level 9 and a 10 year old level 9. Who gets posted the most and tagged. Well it’s the 10 year old, usually with some comment saying “ only _ years old “ or some reference to age. Don’t believe me look around at gyms in your area.

The 10 year old level 9. I do this as well. Talent sells... it's just the way that the algorithms work on most social media with many people. Watch...

The Social Dilemma - A Netflix Original documentary

We tweet, we like, and we share- but what are the consequences of our growing dependence on social media? Discover what's hiding on the other side of your screen at TheSocialDilemma.com

www.thesocialdilemma.com

If you don't have Netflix... buy if for a month just for this.

Well I hope you are right but I do not see it. Kids, young ones, are still in the gym for insane hours all over social media and I do not belong to any those groups and I see it. When they burn out there is another right behind. Parents feed on it. Gyms feed on it. The push for that college scholarship has only gotten worse.

Yes and no... read the GOAT in this post...

What do a GOAT + a generation + a movement + a virus = CULTURE SHIFT

Is the culture of gymnastics changing?... you better believe it is. As a coach... I can definitely feel it shifting... and definitely in a good way. I could probably go on about this forever... but I'm not much of a typer (typist). I'd love to hear what everyone else is thinking about this...

www.chalkbucket.com

Many clubs are finally starting to realize that no matter how many hours the average athlete does... they will never be a GOAT in this sport. You have to have something special. Other clubs have still not figured this out.

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

I do think the culture is changing. I just think it's slow. And crazy parents are half the problem. There are gyms in my city where girls can have positive gymnastics careers, but there are also still parents flocking to the abusive ones because of their "results."

I also view gyms (or any sport) that constantly post about their super young high level girls as a giant red flag. Just like I do when gym moms post like that. I like a gym that posts evenly about all their gymnasts, JO and Xcel, superstars and not, rec and preschool too. And it's something I have watched for on social media when considering gym switches. If you constantly use your youngest, highest level girls in social media because it's good advertising, you're going to attract the crazy gym moms to your gym.

And to Tigtimes...there is a selection bias there. Which parents are posting their kids all over social media? Because I *am* in the Facebook parent groups and I can tell you...it is the crazy ones, and also the ones who are too new to the sport to know they're on the roller coaster. So if the girls you see on social media are your barometer for how the sport is doing, you're always going to skew crazy. Normal parents whose kids have balance don't make their kids' gymnastics their personality and career.

And what I see with the rise of Xcel, is actually a wider and wider swath of girls allowed to participate. I know it's different everywhere, but in my large city, those girls (after competing Platinum or Diamond) have no problem transitioning to JO programs (who would never have accepted them as compulsory kids) if they want to. There's also a place for burnt out optionals to go, permanently or for a few years. I think Xcel has been the saving grace of USAG as far as financials/participation.

 

[Tigtimes]

JBS- we cold debate this back and forth each countering the other with valid points. I respect your opinions and glad you are seeing change. Maybe someday the “other clubs who haven’t figured it out“ as you state will join your ways.

But as you also stated “talent sells” and so the cycle continues cause well..... all it will take is a few weekly privates to earn your 10 year old that Instagram spot

 

[Tigtimes]

And to Tigtimes...there is a selection bias there. Which parents are posting their kids all over social media? Because I *am* in the Facebook parent groups and I can tell you...it is the crazy ones, and also the ones who are too new to the sport to know they're on the roller coaster. So if the girls you see on social media are your barometer for how the sport is doing, you're always going to skew crazy. Normal parents whose kids have balance don't make their kids' gymnastics their personality and career.

I do not use social media as my barometer, just used it here as an example. We have been in this game long enough to know there are many normal parents, many who have been great friends, cause honestly if there weren’t I would have thrown in the towel long ago !!

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

It is also the gyms fault. It is the combination of the parent and gym. WCC should not be allowing a 10 year old to do 34 hours. They have a responsibility as well. But never forget Gyms are a business and your kid is their currency ......

Yes and you would think that given the circumstances of WCC existence and Biles early years in the sport they would follow what worked for a talented child to keep her in the sport. To be honest if that kid is doing 34 hours a week she is not that amazingly talented because other children are capable of that on far less hours. I guess she needs an extra 14 hours to be competitive. I love hard workers, but there is a certain point where we all need to be realistic and realise natural talent often works hard too and doing extra hours will not make you better but it might ruin your body/mind for life.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

It is also the gyms fault. It is the combination of the parent and gym. WCC should not be allowing a 10 year old to do 34 hours. They have a responsibility as well. But never forget Gyms are a business and your kid is their currency ......

I thought the same thing when I read it was WCC. I know Simone doesn't own/run the gym herself, but I find it so disappointing that they would have 10 year olds training 34 hours a week. It just doesn't seem sustainable or necessary.

 

[JBS]

JBS- we cold debate this back and forth each countering the other with valid points.

Yes... definitely... but I do have the insider view on this one.

It's not really opinion based for me... it's statistical. There is one stat that is ringing through loud and clear right now... as the old school coaches disappear (in one way or another... check your recent news)... most new coaches no longer want to follow the path of these coaches that were once idolized in this sport. There are many names that just a few years ago many coaches were saying... "I want to have Olympians just like ___________. I want to run my program just like _____________." Just the opposite now... more like... "I can accomplish more than __________ ever did because it's not about me... it's about my athletes. If my athlete has the talent and the drive... then I know I can get them as far as they want to go."

Coaches used to know that they had to be "tough" and run a "strict" program in order to develop talent. "Tough" and "strict" were things that you looked to other clubs and coaches for just to see how "tough" and how "strict". Everything was sliding in the wrong direction. Things are still "tough" and "strict" at the upper levels... but not the same as they were. Nationwide... things are now sliding (very slowly) in the other direction.

Keep in mind... the "old school coaches" have not all disappeared yet... and for some of them... it will still be years and years before they are replaced. It's up to the parents to make the right choices.

One more thing to everyone... hours aren't the major issue... things can go drastically wrong in 12 hours per week and stay normal in 34. That's a ton of hours... but I've had kids doing lot's of hours as well. Not 34 at age 10... but 24 to 26 at age 10... yes. Some people say that the hours that I just listed are "fine" and others say that I'm crazy too.

I know everything seems like it just keeps getting worse... but it's not as a whole... it's getting better.

 

[Tigtimes]

It's up to the parents to make the right choices.

THAT has been my point

 

[Flicfliclay]

And she did how many interviews, TV appearances all marketing her as the next Simone, future Olympian etc before she even did level 9! It doesn’t matter how good they are at 10 if they’ll be burnt out by 13.

I saw the video of the other kid at WCC, 34 hours at 10 is absurd! And the parents just going along with it! I don’t know why people put all their hopes on a 10 year old kid being the 1 in a million on that Olympic team! Her mom mentioned she’s been at WCC for over two years, since she was 8!! So they moved from NJ to TX for an 8 year olds gym career? Insane! And all this was before MG Elite came crashing down, so there were 2 gyms in NJ with Elites, why go to Texas?

You see that all the time.. ( parents moving across the country for their kids gymnastics )! I'm sure there are parens on this board that have done it or do it.. I would love to hear what they say? I find it intriguing. LOTS of kids go over 30+ hours.. scary.. not thanks

 

[Lucia]

I do feel cautiously optimistic, though I think there’s been too much trauma to get to where we are now. I was a JO gymnast who competed under the old class system, prior to the level set up that exists now. I would’ve loved an option like Excel when I was a teen with overuse injuries to my back and new fears setting in. Instead I felt unwelcome at that point. And I had a coach who was a photographer who would take photos of us and give families copies which they loved. Turns out he was later arrested for child pornography. I always felt funny when he was taking pics, but it never dawned on any of us to question it. This is all to say that while I detest social media in many ways, hopefully the sharing of stories we here now will cause some families to be less naive. My parents had no way of sharing stories easily back then (I’m old). My hope is that cautionary tales won’t stay hidden as easily, and parents can be more educated about their child’s sport. On another note, I wonder how the changes in the elite scoring system have impacted overtraining of young girls? Has the addition of a difficulty score encouraged gyms to push young girls too early and hard? I don’t know, but curious others thoughts.

 

[Nikki4]

I can’t decide if I think it’s all moving in the right direction or not. Every time I think it is another story comes out. But I do think there are things/ people really working to move things in the right direction. Look up mind flow athlete on Facebook.

 

[kendo348]

I think more stories coming out IS a sign of moving in the right direction. The fact that abuse is being recognized, called out, talked about instead of being hidden and enabled is progress. There is lots yet to change but this is very much a “tear it down to build it back up” situation.

 

[Nikki4]

I think more stories coming out IS a sign of moving in the right direction. The fact that abuse is being recognized, called out, talked about instead of being hidden and enabled is progress. There is lots yet to change but this is very much a “tear it down to build it back up” situation.

So true!!

 

[SupportingHerDreams]

I'm not super involved in the sport, my daughter isn't even competing yet. She just turned 7 and our gym doesn't compete until JO Level 4, she is on preteam. I'm probably not educated or experienced enough to comment but I think the majority of responsibility lies on the parents. We have to have good communication with our children and our child's mental and physical health has to be the biggest priority. I don't mean to victim shame but reading through this twitter feed I saw red flag after red flag that I hope I would not discount. We, as parents, need to take these first hand stories and seriously look at ourselves to see where we need to work on how we protect our children.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

You know, I honestly found it quite jarring how closely some -- not all, but some -- of that lined up with my own experience as an athlete in the sport.

I had one particular mean coach growing up who put all the blame on me for his grumpiness, and told my parents as well as other coaches (both from my gym and from other gyms) that I was "uncoachable," and directly prevented me from getting a job coaching at the gym where I grew up.

If the culture is changing, great, but it isn't changing fast enough -- that coach is currently a Men's Gymnastics State Chairman, and has been for more than 10 years now.

 

[Dahlia]

I pose a question to you as a coach. You have intagram for your gym, you have a 16 yr old level 9 and a 10 year old level 9. Who gets posted the most and tagged. Well it’s the 10 year old, usually with some comment saying “ only _ years old “ or some reference to age. Don’t believe me look around at gyms in your area.

It happens younger than that. Most gyms only post the younger athletes at any level. Cute 7 and 8 year olds in level 4 sell better than 11 and 12 year olds in level 4. It's sad that older gymnasts often get ignored and I wish more gyms made an effort to represent their athletes fairly. Even our gym, which is fantastic for my daughter and has taken stands against coaches with questionable practices (as in they will be fired) over-represents the younger gymnasts on social media. I think part of the disconnect is that it's the owner and front office that run social media, not the coaches. I think the coaches would be more fair and more independent of "cuteness factor" when choosing posts.