Thumbs around bar or not?

[Deleted member D3987]

most uneven bar skills are performed with the thumbs alongside the index fingers. when they get atop the bar you will see the thumbs parallel the rail and away from their fingers/fist...kind of like a hitch hiking hand symbol. and you certainly can not do L-grip work with your thumbs around/gripping the rail. although the rail is round [40mm or 1.57 inches) and not egg shaped as its predecessor was, the length of the hand and fingers along with a handgrip and dowel will preclude most kids under 14 or 15 to wrap their thumbs around the bar at all.

and occasionally girls will use their thumbs on front giant work, handstand pirouettes and cast handstands. and you certainly can not do a kip from the ground or a long hang with your thumbs wrapped.

as many of you know, i began gymnastics in the early 60's. and when i began coaching girls we had those awful egg shaped rails. i don't recall anyone ever breaking a thumb. but then, as now, those that attempt to repeatedly use their thumbs end up tearing the cuticle away from the thumbnail. this is usually when the athlete will 'listen' as to what might be a better and less painful way.

the boys steel bar is 28mm or 1.1 inches. much easier to accomplish wrapping of the thumbs. the boys steel bar is polished, and even when chalked with a grip it's much easier for the hand to glide around the bar. the girls have a wood (birch) laminate over (heated and glued with a special adhesive) a hollow fiberglas core. much more difficult for girls for their hands to 'glide' around the rail. simply, the girls rail has more resistance at the hand than the boys steel bar.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

most uneven bar skills are performed with the thumbs alongside the index fingers. when they get atop the bar you will see the thumbs parallel the rail and away from their fingers/fist...kind of like a hitch hiking hand symbol. and you certainly can not do L-grip work with your thumbs around/gripping the rail. although the rail is round [40mm or 1.57 inches) and not egg shaped as its predecessor was, the length of the hand and fingers along with a handgrip and dowel will preclude most kids under 14 or 15 to wrap their thumbs around the bar at all.

and occasionally girls will use their thumbs on front giant work, handstand pirouettes and cast handstands. and you certainly can not do a kip from the ground or a long hang with your thumbs wrapped.

as many of you know, i began gymnastics in the early 60's. and when i began coaching girls we had those awful egg shaped rails. i don't recall anyone ever breaking a thumb. but then, as now, those that attempt to repeatedly use their thumbs end up tearing the cuticle away from the thumbnail. this is usually when the athlete will 'listen' as to what might be a better and less painful way.

the boys steel bar is 28mm or 1.1 inches. much easier to accomplish wrapping of the thumbs. the boys steel bar is polished, and even when chalked with a grip it's much easier for the hand to glide around the bar. the girls have a wood (birch) laminate over (heated and glued with a special adhesive) a hollow fiberglas core. much more difficult for girls for their hands to 'glide' around the rail. simply, the girls rail has more resistance at the hand than the boys steel bar.

also, i have been on the podium with nastia and he kexin at separate meets. here's a couple of videos. best way to educate your eyes is to just 'stare' at the hands. do not look at what they're performing. just stare at their hands. i can tell you that nastia's fingers and hand look to be a 'foot' longer that He's in person, lol. you will see He use her thumb once only, and only because she had to correct a body alignment mistake early in the routine. enjoy!

Uneven Bars - He Kexin Beijing 2008 - YouTube

Nastia Liukin Uneven Bars Finals Beijing 2008 - YouTube

 

[gymdog]

The "You'll break your thumbs" advice for female bar performers is "dated" at best... but it is certainly still heard in gyms around the US... in spite of a high percentage of international gymnasts now using the full grip on almost all skills.

Forty years ago when I started gymnastics the "thumbs" warning was valid, as the x-section of the women's rail was egg shaped - just like the men's parallel bars rails. You HAD to have large hands to wrap your thumbs on those bars let me tell you!

However nowadays the women's bars are smaller and almost perfectly round in x-section. Unless your hands are very small (thumb and index finger do NOT touch when you wrap grip the bar - WITH thumbs around) you should use your thumbs to grip the bar. This grip provides significant additional control for both support and swinging skills in either direction.

It is important to NOTE however that when the thumbs are wrapped the gymnast should NOT "pinch" with their thumbs (imagine you are thumb wrestling... You push your thumb backward over the back of your hand as if you are stretching for your little finger to prevent being pinned by your opponent's thumb). This "pinching" action WILL quickly result in blisters on the inside of the thumb - and also will provide unnecessary friction during swinging skills. Only squeeze with the thumb when it is needed (most often at the top of a swing through handstands but also in supports where a hanging swing turns into a support position as the ascent is attained - (a free/clear hipcircle for example)).

In 1492 Christopher Columbus was told he was endangering his crew and his Queen's resources by sailing off the edge of the (flat) world to seek a new route to India. Even after his return that belief lingered for a few HUNDRED years. Didn't have the web then! SO - spread the word........ The bar is round. Use your thumbs as soon as your hands are large enough to do so.

I don't understand this at all. Are you saying you think it's easier/more efficient to do giants on the women's rail with your thumbs wrapped around the bar? Some people switch their thumbs over if they're falling the wrong way in support, but otherwise I see no point and think it would greatly impede the average optional bar routine (with a few exceptions, front giant, maybe blind and pirouette).

 

[Kiwi]

Interesting. I've always put my thumbs over the bar with my fingers. Recently when I was trying to learn straddle-on, a coach recommended putting my thumbs around the bar, but when I tried to hold the bar that way it felt so weird I gave up and went back to what I was used to.

 

[ivyagogo]

This is a great conversation. I always try to keep my girls from wrapping their thumbs because of the "breaking the thumb" myth. However, whenever I try to cast to a handstand (which I'm having a really hard time with at my age/weight), I feel much more comfortable having my thumb around the bar. I feel it's sort of akin to a side handstand on the beam.

 

[sbonham]

Interesting discussion. Good to see that we are moving in the proper (IMO) direction. If you go to youtube and search for uneven bars, olympics, visa or a specific favorite champion gymnast (my fave Nastia Liukin for example) and download the file so you can watch it frame by frame you will be amazed. Nastia for example has her thumbs wrapped in almost every skill with the exception of her elgrip Endoshoot (forward Stalder). Even grips with thumbs on her simple glide kip mount on the low bar. When she regrasps her Thakchev and Geinger she uses an overgrip without thumbs but quickly changes to a thumb wrap.

With the dowel grips in use today by even intermediate level gymnasts it's has good as having an additional distal phalange (an extra bone at the end of (two or three depending on the grips selected) fingers which ADDs tremendous gripping power even for small hands.

Enjoying the give and take.

Steve

 

[sbonham]

I don't understand this at all. Are you saying you think it's easier/more efficient to do giants on the women's rail with your thumbs wrapped around the bar? Some people switch their thumbs over if they're falling the wrong way in support, but otherwise I see no point and think it would greatly impede the average optional bar routine (with a few exceptions, front giant, maybe blind and pirouette).

Gymdog,

Yes, that is my opinion - that it is more efficient to do bar work in general with the thumbs wrapped ***IF*** (or when) the size of the performers hands permit it. When jumping for a glide kip mount if the thumbs are wrapped the performer can PUSH her center of gravity away from the hands much more effectively than an overgrip without thumbs wrapped. If the thumbs are not wrapped the performer must hyperextend the wrist to push to gain extension (or NOT extend) and and the descent into the glide begins either regrip (move palms back atop rail) or risk losing her grip at the end of the glide. Ideally at the end of the glide the wrists should be flexed (so palms remain atop the rail) as the shoulders are extended.

Here's an illustration of that skill sequence. Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[gymdog]

But I don't have particularly small hands, and I can't imagine doing giants (which I can easily do with my thumbs next to my fingers) with my thumbs wrapped. I also sustained a fairly significant injury to the tendon in my thumb which can still be an issue today so separating my thumb like that repeatedly would hurt. I do it on some inbar turning skills. But to me, catching some releases with your thumbs like that seems it could cause the kind of injury I had. I suppose they could catch and then immediately trying to regrip their thumbs, but it seems difficult to me. When I would catch the bar for say a pak salto, in order to kip out of it I would need to place my hands more over the bar (no wrist flexion) in order to do this with my thumbs over seems uncomfortable to me.

I can't see close enough to form any conclusion about Nastia's thumbs. But by the time most kids who are going to do higher level bar skills are big enough to easily use their thumbs, they would have already learned a lot of bar skills (basic kips and giants). Do you have them go back and learn to do everything with their thumbs? I guess I keep using myself as an example but admittedly set in my habits of what feels natural to me. I can still do giants now, and I don't think I could learn to use my thumbs. I've done giants on the men's rail and I didn't use my thumbs then either, although I probably could have because of the difference in that bar and I wasn't wearing grips when I did it (also can see the point on that bar because I shifted my wrists and ended up on my fingers for a second, but I've never come anywhere close to doing that on the women's rail).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i can't tell if we're saying the same thing or not. i know and have seen nastia personally on the podium. hands are 1 of those things that coaches observe. i can tell you that nastia does not wrap her thumbs around the bar when she swings. her thumbs move about depending on what she does. for example, as you pointed out, when she drops in to her endo her hands/fingers/thumbs are atop the bar. her thumbs are not under the rail 'gripping' at this point. they stay this way thru the bottom. on the way up and as she taps over the top of the bar she moves her thumbs over the top of the bar and moves them again alongside her fingers on the very next skill.

i'll say it another way to clarify. boys can close their thumb to the index finger and can completely go around the bar without opening their grip. girls cannot and don't.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Gymdog,

Yes, that is my opinion - that it is more efficient to do bar work in general with the thumbs wrapped ***IF*** (or when) the size of the performers hands permit it. When jumping for a glide kip mount if the thumbs are wrapped the performer can PUSH her center of gravity away from the hands much more effectively than an overgrip without thumbs wrapped. If the thumbs are not wrapped the performer must hyperextend the wrist to push to gain extension (or NOT extend) and and the descent into the glide begins either regrip (move palms back atop rail) or risk losing her grip at the end of the glide. Ideally at the end of the glide the wrists should be flexed (so palms remain atop the rail) as the shoulders are extended.

Here's an illustration of that skill sequence. Hope this helps.

Steve

View attachment 3396

again, not sure if we're saying the same thing or not. when girls jump to the bar for a glide, their fingers and thumbs are on TOP of the bar and their wrist is closed. when they extend their glide their hands, fingers and thumbs (along with the dowel if they use those) are still on top of the bar but the wrist opens. and when the feet come to the bar and the kipping action takes place, the wrist closes and the hand moves that tiny bit back to the top/center of the bar.

i don't want anyone to think that you wrap your thumbs around the bar from beginning to end. this is not so. let's get this right cause a whole lot of coaches and kids read here.

 

[gymdog]

i can't tell if we're saying the same thing or not. i know and have seen nastia personally on the podium. hands are 1 of those things that coaches observe. i can tell you that nastia does not wrap her thumbs around the bar when she swings. her thumbs move about depending on what she does. for example, as you pointed out, when she drops in to her endo her hands/fingers/thumbs are atop the bar. her thumbs are not under the rail 'gripping' at this point. they stay this way thru the bottom. on the way up and as she taps over the top of the bar she moves her thumbs over the top of the bar and moves them again alongside her fingers on the very next skill.

i'll say it another way to clarify. boys can close their thumb to the index finger and can completely go around the bar without opening their grip. girls cannot and don't.

Well, we are saying the same thing I don't find shifting the thumbs over at the top unusual (although I don't think it's necessary or ideal for back giants, clear hip actions). Can't imagine swinging under the bar like that. Maybe someone is doing it, I don't know, but it seems like forcing an unnatural action to me.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes gymdog, you and me are saying the same thing...