Transition from Level 10 to Elite

[Muddlethru]

If a gymnast is at a gym that caps at Level 10 and/or does not do elite, and this gymnast decides she wants to go elite (and of course this decision is supported by her ability and desire), would she be at a disadvantage compared to those coming from elite facilities? Is there a big difference between a regular top gym that only goes to L10 to one that trains elite? If you transition from a regular L10 gym to an elite gym is there a lot of catch up work that it may jeopardize your chances?

The questions above are pretty much the same but stated differently. I just was not sure if i was getting my message/question clearly across. BTW, I am referring to USAG. At what level should a gymnast consider looking at gyms that train elite if she wants to go elite?

Please don't shoot the messenger. A few mothers at our gym are just curious.

 

[gymnut1]

There might not be a big difference between a L10 gym and an 'elite' gym and how they train or their facility but there are big differences between the USAG and FIG code and equipment. Some level 10s do routines that will transition more easily than others. So it really depends on your gymnast and the skills and form that they have. A gymnast in an elite bound programme probably uses FIG settings from an early age. They will also be perfecting the elite compulsory routines as part of their training (and they need to be pretty perfect). I guess that would give them an advantage. It wouldn't be too hard to work out how far away a gymnast was from meeting the requirements.

 

[JBS]

Wow...it's really too hard to say. There are just too many factors.

What level is the gymnast we are talking about?...what age?...how did they place at regionals/nationals?

EDIT: Also keep in mind that your top "elite" gyms only train their "elites" as "elites"...they train their L10's like L10's. Gyms that train L10's like elites end up with a bunch of unhappy, sloppy, injured gymnasts.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

spot on ^^^. and someone needs to evaluate the athlete. and that someone should be someone who has been at the elite level.

 

[gymcoach34]

There is really no cut and dried answer. Does it hurt to try Elite if you are not in the "perfect circumstance" or in an elite gym? Probably not if the coaches and parents are smart and have some perspective on things -so the athlete is protected. Every coach & program has to start somewhere..everyone has to have their 1st elite. I think a few things parents need to look at: are ALL the gymnasts fairly healthy, fairly happy, with a good conditioning program, with coaches that are sticklers for form & technique and BASICS?...If those pieces are there for ALL the gymnasts , I feel it says a lot about the coaches & program. Also look for coaches that are organized and come to workout with a plan..rather than just off the cuff workouts. A coach that will sit down w you with a plan for the year (skill wise, etc) for your Level 8 or above gymnast. There is a process or system in place at the gyms that consistently produce the best gymnasts (whether it be JO or elite)-its different in every club-but its an organized plan to achieve the best results. Those are the things I would look for-and if any of them are not there-the club might get one or 2 super talented kid into the elite program, but it wont consistently produce the top kids (and I mean the top Level 7 as well as the top level 10 or elite). Thats why people move to elite gyms, bc there is an established system to help their kids reach the top of the sport. That would be harder in a small gym with only 1 or 2 kids training elite, but it CAN happen, if all their pieces are in place.

 

[gymcoach34]

Wow...it's really too hard to say. There are just too many factors.

What level is the gymnast we are talking about?...what age?...how did they place at regionals/nationals?

EDIT: Also keep in mind that your top "elite" gyms only train their "elites" as "elites"...they train their L10's like L10's. Gyms that train L10's like elites end up with a bunch of unhappy, sloppy, injured gymnasts.

I disagree a little bit with this JBS. I have worked in an elite gym- and all the levels were expected to Train like the elites in regards to: expectations for coaches to plan, for gymnasts to train at their own personal level of excellence, HIGH expectations as far as technique & form, etc. Were the athletes doing the same skills? Mostly not, but the EXPECTATIONS were high and level appropriate-there was a system set in place for the Level 4's, as well as the elites. There are some diffreneces, but a lot of similarities too!

 

[JBS]

I disagree a little bit with this JBS. I have worked in an elite gym- and all the levels were expected to Train like the elites in regards to: expectations for coaches to plan, for gymnasts to train at their own personal level of excellence, HIGH expectations as far as technique & form, etc. Were the athletes doing the same skills? Mostly not, but the EXPECTATIONS were high and level appropriate-there was a system set in place for the Level 4's, as well as the elites. There are some diffreneces, but a lot of similarities too!

We are not an "elite" gym and we also expect the above.

 

[NGL780309]

The one question nobody answered was when is a good time to take your child to an elite gym if they feel like they are headed in that direction. I can't answer that question for you, but I can give you a few examples of kids who have left DD's old gym and gone to an elite gym.

One left after level 7 to a gym that had elites, but not top elites at the time she left. She qualified junior intl at that gym 3 years later or so and made nationals and then left for a top program across the country. She's been at that top program for 2 years now and hasn't done very well surprisingly.

The second left after Level 9 to the same gym I mentioned above. She qualified junior intl there after 2 years and made nationals. Then she left for a different elite gym in the area and has done very well. She made the junior national team and got an assignment to compete abroad.

A third left after Level 8 to the same gym and did Hopes. Then she followed gymnast number 2 to the other gym where she did Hopes again (very young girl). Now she has moved back to her orginal gym (DD's old gym) and competed her first year of Level 10. I'm not sure why she went back because I think her chances of doing elite where much better at the other gym.

 

[JBS]

At what level should a gymnast consider looking at gyms that train elite if she wants to go elite?

I'll answer the the question...right now. If I had a child that was obviously elite caliber and that is what we all wanted...I would be looking into an elite gym ASAP.

 

[JBS]

Here is a two part article from John Geddert's blog:

Link Removed

Link Removed

 

[gymdog]

I'll answer the the question...right now. If I had a child that was obviously elite caliber and that is what we all wanted...I would be looking into an elite gym ASAP.

This where I'm at. Personally I am not interested in coaching elite. If parents came to me and said they could support the goal, and I thought their child had that potential, I would give them a list of nearby programs and let them know they would be better off switching sooner than later. If I privately didn't really think their kid had a shot, I'd probably suggest they get an evaluation and then see what they think. I'm assuming that the child would have reached some level of skill that indicated to me they could pick up advanced skills fast - so probably that is competing level 7, but doing some level 8 and 9 skills.

If I thought my child even had potential for level 10, I'd move to a gym that could train L10s (not all gyms can really even manage that). Being able to spot and teach certain skills is a huge advantage for the gymnasts in reaching their potential.

OR a gym where the coaches were knowledgeable but hadn't had elites in the American system yet. For example, Shawn Johnson's coaches...but obviously they are extremely knowledgeable and it was a good decision for her to stick with them (not that her family would have had many choices without a move out of state).

So I guess I would say if it required moving out of state, then that would give me pause. Like under those circumstances, my hypothetical child would have had to have really and truly maxed out the L10 option (or whatever the limit was) relatively early and REALLY wanted something more, AND I couldn't interest them in other sports options. It is probably not entirely likely that my child would grow up somewhere there was no gymnastics because of my career, but let's say whatever happens and that is the case, it is really a lot of pressure and I would want to avoid that kind of drastic decision if at all possible...however there are chances I'd be open to it.

However, in some circumstances you could stay at a gym longer than in others. For example if the coaches are technically knowledgeable but say "we can't commit to training an elite under this gym" but have done so in another country/gym and are willing to train the child using the FIG standards, strong technical knowledge and spotting and such...you could stay for a longer time and keep re-evaluating whether a move was still desired and necessary as the kid neared maxing out level 10. But if the coaches basically are not capable or interested in coaching those levels.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Wow...it's really too hard to say. There are just too many factors.

What level is the gymnast we are talking about?...what age?...how did they place at regionals/nationals?

EDIT: Also keep in mind that your top "elite" gyms only train their "elites" as "elites"...they train their L10's like L10's. Gyms that train L10's like elites end up with a bunch of unhappy, sloppy, injured gymnasts.

Curious about the highlighted statement. Can you elaborate on that a little? Just curious about what you mean.

 

[NGL780309]

I'll answer the the question...right now. If I had a child that was obviously elite caliber and that is what we all wanted...I would be looking into an elite gym ASAP.

JBS you just sent all the L4 and L5 parents scampering away to find their DD an elite gym! LOL

 

[Muddlethru]

Curious about the highlighted statement. Can you elaborate on that a little? Just curious about what you mean.

Obviously, JBS is the only one who can really explain what she means. But Tammy Biggs was explaining about the difference between L10s and elites. According to her, L10 skills and elite skills are very similar in difficulty. The big difference is the execution and training. Whereas, L10 gymnasts goals are to merely stay on the apparstus or perform the skill, an elite strives for perfection. And even once that is attained, they aspire for more perfection. According to her, an elite gymnast strives on being corrected because they always want to improve on a skill, whereas a regular L10 gymnast takes offense when they are corrected partly because their training does not lend itself to constant corrections. So, I think the environment in which an elite trains and the personality it takes to be an elite is quite different from the trainng environment and personality of a JO athlete. So maybe what JBS means is if you don't have the proper training skills, equipment, personality, etc., to train an elite, you may not produce a true elite. Below is the Tammy Biggs video.

JO Gymnastics vs Elite Gymnastics | Tammy Biggs Videos | Gymnastike

 

[NGL780309]

I asked a coach I know who has coached elite when he feels like a kid needs to look for an elite gym if that is the goal they have and he said maybe around Level 7, but that it depends on how good of a gym they are at. He feels like if they are at a very good gym with great coaching it would not be difficult to switch to an elite level gym even after reaching L10.

Interesting discussion.

 

[gymcoach34]

Obviously, JBS is the only one who can really explain what she means. But Tammy Biggs was explaining about the difference between L10s and elites. According to her, L10 skills and elite skills are very similar in difficulty. The big difference is the execution and training. Whereas, L10 gymnasts goals are to merely stay on the apparstus or perform the skill, an elite strives for perfection. And even once that is attained, they aspire for more perfection. According to her, an elite gymnast strives on being corrected because they always want to improve on a skill, whereas a regular L10 gymnast takes offense when they are corrected partly because their training does not lend itself to constant corrections. So, I think the environment in which an elite trains and the personality it takes to be an elite is quite different from the trainng environment and personality of a JO athlete. So maybe what JBS means is if you don't have the proper training skills, equipment, personality, etc., to train an elite, you may not produce a true elite. Below is the Tammy Biggs video.

JO Gymnastics vs Elite Gymnastics | Tammy Biggs Videos | Gymnastike

wow- that is a harsh and very untrue generalization. I know so many L10's who take corrections very well, and want to improve on every turn and have unbelieveable drive.....I didnt watch the video...but its just not true. Believe it or not, there are some very talented kids who choose to stay level 10- and its not like they are making a bad choice. There isnt 1 right answer to the OP's question. I do agree with the statement about if you dont have the proper training skills, equipment, personality, etc (from both coach, parent & athlete).. There really are not that many kids who have the physical and mental make up to be an elite athlete-hense the term elite. Thereare so many necessary pieces- many you dont even know are necessary until you are in it.

 

[gymdog]

wow- that is a harsh and very untrue generalization. I know so many L10's who take corrections very well, and want to improve on every turn and have unbelieveable drive.....I didnt watch the video...but its just not true. Believe it or not, there are some very talented kids who choose to stay level 10- and its not like they are making a bad choice. There isnt 1 right answer to the OP's question. I do agree with the statement about if you dont have the proper training skills, equipment, personality, etc (from both coach, parent & athlete).. There really are not that many kids who have the physical and mental make up to be an elite athlete-hense the term elite. Thereare so many necessary pieces- many you dont even know are necessary until you are in it.

Ummm...yeah. I feel like sometimes it is lost that getting to level 10 is EXTREMELY hard mentally and physically. These are not average athletes (repeat of the NCAA thread: blah blah blah). There are tons of factors that go into the decision to stay in the JO track or go elite and most of them aren't "I am lazy and don't want to make corrections so I'll "just" do level 10." If someone "takes offense" at corrections, they're not going to make it to level 10. Heck, they probably won't make it in the door of an optional practice, or they aren't going to stay long in any one program.

Personality is a factor to some extent but I think that suggesting the L10 athlete takes offense at corrections and doesn't make them is a huge overstatement. The vast majority of L10s are dedicated and driven athletes. On top of that, being elite requires a singular focus on the sport (so a very social and outgoing girl may decide the sacrifices aren't worth it - on the other hand I've known girls who have participated in elite programs that I'd describe as very social and outgoing...so that's just an example of one factor). I also don't think being more reserved is a bad thing. I'm a very reserved person and that factored into my decision to stay in gymnastics (albeit not in an elite program) for much longer than my peers. So a lot of the same things go for staying in gymnastics through high school and participating in the upper optional program. This will require many sacrifices as well.

Basically I see being able to manage participation in the elite program in the US as something that happens when a variety of circumstances combine (a perfect storm). Not participating, or choosing to drop back to L10 does not indicate subpar athleticism or character. There are many paths to a fulfilling career in gymnastics and merely possessing the athletic ability to do elite level skills does not necessarily mean that will be the ideal path for the individual and their family.

 

[JBS]

Curious about the highlighted statement. Can you elaborate on that a little? Just curious about what you mean.

L10's are like NASCAR's...elites are like Indy cars. You can't put a NASCAR with an Indy car and expect it to keep up.

Bottom line...a NASCAR is very different than an Indy car. A NASCAR can practice all day long and they're still going to be 30 mph slower and sliding all over.

I'm a huge NASCAR fan!

 

[JBS]

Obviously, JBS is the only one who can really explain what she means. But Tammy Biggs was explaining about the difference between L10s and elites. According to her, L10 skills and elite skills are very similar in difficulty. The big difference is the execution and training. Whereas, L10 gymnasts goals are to merely stay on the apparstus or perform the skill, an elite strives for perfection. And even once that is attained, they aspire for more perfection. According to her, an elite gymnast strives on being corrected because they always want to improve on a skill, whereas a regular L10 gymnast takes offense when they are corrected partly because their training does not lend itself to constant corrections. So, I think the environment in which an elite trains and the personality it takes to be an elite is quite different from the trainng environment and personality of a JO athlete. So maybe what JBS means is if you don't have the proper training skills, equipment, personality, etc., to train an elite, you may not produce a true elite. Below is the Tammy Biggs video.

JO Gymnastics vs Elite Gymnastics | Tammy Biggs Videos | Gymnastike

I agree with the first part of the video. When a gymnast is critiqued too much for their personality they crumble...

...unhappy...sloppy...injured...are all things that happen when workouts become too negative.

One thing to remember...any correction given is a "negative" comment to the gymnast.

EDIT: Don't forget that an elite gymnast usually handles critiques a good 10+ hours longer per week than a L10.

 

[Muddlethru]

I am by no means undermining and/or diminishing the hardwork, dedication, talent, personality, etc. Of a JO athlete. To reach L10 is a great achievement, no doubt. I also don't think Tammy Biggs is putting these L10 athletes down. She is merely describing the differences she sees between the two. What I got from the video was not that L10 athletes were inferior in training or talent but that going elite is a completely different "beast", so to speak. And I do agree that they are two different athletes, both in training and personality. And if you see both compete against each other you will be able to tell the two apart.