Transition from Level 10 to Elite

[NGL780309]

I am by no means undermining and/or diminishing the hardwork, dedication, talent, personality, etc. Of a JO athlete. To reach L10 is a great achievement, no doubt. I also don't think Tammy Biggs is putting these L10 athletes down. She is merely describing the differences she sees between the two. What I got from the video was not that L10 athletes were inferior in training or talent but that going elite is a completely different "beast", so to speak. And I do agree that they are two different athletes, both in training and personality. And if you see both compete against each other you will be able to tell the two apart.

Most of the time yes, but not always. I know there have been a lot of junior intl in our state that drop back to level 10 and I often find them to be sloppier than a lot of the level 10's that have never done elite. I've always attributed it to the push to do bigger skills without great form.

 

[Muddlethru]

[/B]
Most of the time yes, but not always. I know there have been a lot of junior intl in our state that drop back to level 10 and I often find them to be sloppier than a lot of the level 10's that have never done elite. I've always attributed it to the push to do bigger skills without great form.

There aren't a lot of junior elites but there are many aspiring junior eites who have not really qualified and call themselves junior elite. I am hard pressed to believe that a current junior or senior elite or one freshly off elite status would be sloppy period. Every gymnast that makes elite status is hardly ever pushed to bigger skills without great form. That is what distinguishes elites from regular JO athletes. You will not even be invited to the ranch if you do not have great form. It starts with TOPS and then HOPES. The only reason i can see this happening is if the former junior elite was an elite many many years ago and no longer in the top form she was in when she was an elite. I believe you are misinformed on what it takes to be an elite.

 

[3rd_time_around]

My daughter is beginning her L10 training, and she wants corrections. She wants her coach to tell her when she has done something wrong and how to fix it. She eats properly even when unsupervised. She wants a college scholarship, so she is driven to be the best. Her teammate was given a full scholarship to a major college, and she was only level 10. She could have easily gone elite, but decided years ago not to because she wanted to "have a life." And she is on the same college team with former Elites, National Team members, and even former Olympians. She did very well this past season and even earned All American distinction. So I don't think JO athletes take offense at corrections, or work any less, or are less dedicated. I've seen some like that that, though, and then they wonder why no schools are knocking down their doors.

 

[gymnut1]

I agree GA there are so many reasons why girls go elite or go 10 which have nothing to do with taking corrections. I totally disagree with that statement who ever said it.

 

[gymcoach34]

I feel bad fo the OP that this thread was hijacked..... but I have one thing left to say..... !. Tiffany tolnay-never went elite but was an amazing athlete-or indy car as it was said- and anyone who saw her compete her senior year at JO Nationals would 100% agree. We wre all watching her and not our own athletes. She was a ROCK STAR athlete. 2. And I could list multiple "regular race cars" who were successful elites, but were super hard workers and had great coaches.... Nastia Luikin (she did ok for herself), Katie Heenan, Sam Sheehan... those kids have a world or olympic medal to show for themselves... and they were not the best athletes at all... just phenominal workers w great, smart coaches..

The longer you coach the more you can see there's not 1 formula for all gymnasts...

 

[JBS]

This is a fun thread...a bit nutty. Since many of the posters in this thread are considering certain gymnasts and not the average L10 and the average elite...let's post some video examples.

http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/c...cs-vs-level-10-gymnastics-video-examples.html

...and I think gymcoach34 just answered the OP's question...

At what level should a gymnast consider looking at gyms that train elite if she wants to go elite?

Nastia was trained by two world champion parents. I'm not really sure there was ever a transition to elite gymnastics for Nastia. She was trained by people who knew elite gymnastics very well from the very beginning. In my opinion, Nastia never drove NASCAR...she drove Indy from the very begining...her Indy car just drove a bit slower at first...like a go-cart.

EDIT: Wow...I kind of just summed up my thoughts above. It is possible to be an average L10...it's not possible to be an average elite. There is something (physical, mental, ethic, whatever) that is above average about every elite athlete.

 

[NGL780309]

There aren't a lot of junior elites but there are many aspiring junior eites who have not really qualified and call themselves junior elite. I am hard pressed to believe that a current junior or senior elite or one freshly off elite status would be sloppy period. Every gymnast that makes elite status is hardly ever pushed to bigger skills without great form. That is what distinguishes elites from regular JO athletes. You will not even be invited to the ranch if you do not have great form. It starts with TOPS and then HOPES. The only reason i can see this happening is if the former junior elite was an elite many many years ago and no longer in the top form she was in when she was an elite. I believe you are misinformed on what it takes to be an elite.

I have seen them in my state and I'm not talking about those that are trying to be elites. I'm talking about those that have made junior international. Go to a US classic sometime and there are plenty of junior international elites that I think are sloppy. I sat at our regions Level 10 regionals this year and many of the wonderful level 10's in our state looked better than or as good as some drop backs. I can name a few names, but don't like to call out kids in public. I can name a jr intl on the National team right now whose bars are the very definition of sloppy, but I know her parents have read here before and I'm not here to bash any gymnast.

Heck, I can go the world championships and pick out some sloppy gymnasts from many of the top countries.

So I disagree. And by the way there were A LOT of junior international elites last year that tried to make it to nationals. There were so many that the classic had to be split into 2 sessions. All of them had qualified elite and A LOT of them were sloppy and no better than and often times worse than many of the great level 10's in my state. I saw some truly great yurchenko 1.5's at regionals this year and I saw plenty of sloppy, scary yurchenkos at classic's last year.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I have seen them in my state and I'm not talking about those that are trying to be elites. I'm talking about those that have made junior international. Go to a US classic sometime and there are plenty of junior international elites that I think are sloppy. I sat at our regions Level 10 regionals this year and many of the wonderful level 10's in our state looked better than or as good as some drop backs. I can name a few names, but don't like to call out kids in public. I can name a jr intl on the National team right now whose bars are the very definition of sloppy, but I know her parents have read here before and I'm not here to bash any gymnast.

Heck, I can go the world championships and pick out some sloppy gymnasts from many of the top countries.

So I disagree. And by the way there were A LOT of junior international elites last year that tried to make it to nationals. There were so many that the classic had to be split into 2 sessions. All of them had qualified elite and A LOT of them were sloppy and no better than and often times worse than many of the great level 10's in my state. I saw some truly great yurchenko 1.5's at regionals this year and I saw plenty of sloppy, scary yurchenkos at classic's last year.

Our hc/owner was an Elite/National team member, almost made the Olympics--she went to the Classic last year and said the exact same thing. Whatayaknow?

 

[bribri514]

I have seen them in my state and I'm not talking about those that are trying to be elites. I'm talking about those that have made junior international. Go to a US classic sometime and there are plenty of junior international elites that I think are sloppy. I sat at our regions Level 10 regionals this year and many of the wonderful level 10's in our state looked better than or as good as some drop backs. I can name a few names, but don't like to call out kids in public. I can name a jr intl on the National team right now whose bars are the very definition of sloppy, but I know her parents have read here before and I'm not here to bash any gymnast.

Heck, I can go the world championships and pick out some sloppy gymnasts from many of the top countries.

So I disagree. And by the way there were A LOT of junior international elites last year that tried to make it to nationals. There were so many that the classic had to be split into 2 sessions. All of them had qualified elite and A LOT of them were sloppy and no better than and often times worse than many of the great level 10's in my state. I saw some truly great yurchenko 1.5's at regionals this year and I saw plenty of sloppy, scary yurchenkos at classic's last year.

I haven't been to classics but I've been to L 10 nationals. And I've watched a lot of junior international elite routines online. I agree. Not to discredit any gymnast, they all work very hard, but sometimes I feel like some girls pushing at a young age for international elite end up just pushing for big skills without perfection and outpace their own physical development. There's some excellent L 10 gymnasts, many who don't have the financial or other means to "go elite" and many more who wouldn't even go if they could. I know some girls who were at L 10 for many years, turned down many elite opportunities, competed at D I colleges, avoided injuries (mostly! I mean it is gymnastics) and were happy and healthy with their decisions. I honestly thing FIG and JO are just two different systems, one isn't inherently "better" than the other, we just tend to thing FIG is because "elite" is associated with it. Not trying to make this off to be elite vs. JO or anything just my two cents (as a huge huge fan of JO L 10 girls )

 

[NGL780309]

One other thing that I dislike about elite vs Level 10 is that the elite gymnasts don't get to compete very much. The level 10 girls get to go to a lot of meets and get that fun experience with their teammates. Especially in recent years its seems like many of the elite girls hardly compete at all. They go to the training camps and the Classic meets (some of them, others qualify directly from camp) and maybe Nationals if they make it, but other than that most don't compete much. Some still do invitationals, but that seems to have really decreased in recent years. If a gymnast is an elite gymnast, but not good enough to get assignments, it just doesn't seem like it would be worth it. Let's train a crazy amount of hours and never really get to show anyone what we can do. Sounds totally worth it!

 

[3rd_time_around]

One other thing that I dislike about elite vs Level 10 is that the elite gymnasts don't get to compete very much. The level 10 girls get to go to a lot of meets and get that fun experience with their teammates. Especially in recent years its seems like many of the elite girls hardly compete at all. They go to the training camps and the Classic meets (some of them, others qualify directly from camp) and maybe Nationals if they make it, but other than that most don't compete much. Some still do invitationals, but that seems to have really decreased in recent years. If a gymnast is an elite gymnast, but not good enough to get assignments, it just doesn't seem like it would be worth it. Let's train a crazy amount of hours and never really get to show anyone what we can do. Sounds totally worth it!

And usually when it's an international, only a couple USA girls are in them.

 

[LMV]

Interesting thread...

Our daughter is 11 and training L10 [which she should compete in 2011-2012 if all goes well]. She is at a gym that does not train elite but does train up through L10 and I think they do that well. We [referring to my husband and I] have no desire for her to go the elite path and in the past it wasn’t something she seemed to be interested in either. The latter has changed and we’re kind of in this nebulous “Can she do this? Can we let her try?â€￾ zone. I actually posted about this a month ago or so and got some helpful suggestions. After that I looked at the elite compulsory requirements and she can do those skills although her execution may not be flawless enough to score well [although apparently her coach was using the compulsory bar routine for training purposes and he thinks she could do very well with that---which still leaves three other events ]. This would probably be the time for us to switch to a gym that trains elite but there are so many other factors, including the reality that at the moment her nephrologist is not comfortable with allowing her to train more than 15 hours a week, which complicate things. At the moment she is going to stay at her current gym at least for another year and the HC who has never wanted to train elite is talking to a friend who has coached girls onto national team and we’re kind of waiting to see how that settles out.

We don’t want to force him to do something he doesn’t want to do but I think if he offered to work with her at least through a point where she either qualified to elite or it became apparent that she couldn’t do that either because of health issues that derail things, maxing out her own talent limits, or losing interest, I think at this point we would go with that. We have always trusted his ability to keep her safe [or at least as safe as is possible in a sport where kids fly through the air in various contortions] and although we did have some disagreements about how fast she should progress we feel we’re all completely on the same page now. Even when we felt things were moving too fast it wasn’t a scenario of pushing skills she wasn’t ready for but just one of competing a higher level and how that was going to be in light of everything else going on in her life. We realize that working with a less proven or perhaps just one who is less experienced in navigating the system probably diminishes the likelihood of success but when we look at the big picture we think having her in a nurturing gym that won’t insist on a set number of hours is important too.

My other sense is that for her to truly pursue elite we would probably need to move as a family. At this point that is not something we could really consider. I’m a physician with certain commitments [which doesn’t eliminate the possibility of moving but it does alter the timeframe] and we came back here mostly because we did have so much family here so that would be hard to give up. However, life evolves and changes and while we [as parents] don‘t think this would be a good decision for our family in 2011 when she is 11 we might feel differently in a few years.

 

[txgymfan]

LMV, good to hear you and coach are on the same page. After struggles, its nice to hear that things are going as smoothly as possible. Good luck to your DD this season. Sending faries for a healthy and fun level 10 season. She sounds very talented. I hope you are enjoying being back at work and alowing your husband to be more of the gymdad.

 

[LMV]

LMV, good to hear you and coach are on the same page. After struggles, its nice to hear that things are going as smoothly as possible. Good luck to your DD this season. Sending faries for a healthy and fun level 10 season. She sounds very talented. I hope you are enjoying being back at work and alowing your husband to be more of the gymdad.

Thanks so much! As far as my husband, he seems to be surviving as a gymdad [or perhaps he just knows that since he was the one who put his litigator skills to work and helped his baby sister lobby their mom to let her do gymnastics over ten years ago he better not complain about any of this experience to his mom]. Even better, his sister is home from a very successful freshman year of college and doing her summer training in the same gym which is really good for our daughter. She thinks she has such a cool aunt [and she does ].

 

[LemonLime]

Our hc/owner was an Elite/National team member, almost made the Olympics--she went to the Classic last year and said the exact same thing. Whatayaknow?

So far, there are only around 40 jr international elites in 2011, but there were over 70 in 2010. Not every year is the same. The rules change, the parameters change (i.e., building years vs. Olympic years), and the qualifying procedures change. At the three national qualifiers in 2011, maybe only five kids have qualified as new jr international elites.

Skillswise, currently, there are very significant differences between L10 and elite. In elite, only 8 skills count and on fx and beam, 5 of those must be dance skills. That means that young children need to be introduced C and D dance skill timers at roughly the same time they are introduced C and D acro timers. Children who lack flexibility may have trouble with dance requirement at elite, but not at JO.

It is also very difficult to get connection awarded in elite (called bonus in JO) and connection is the heart of success at elite on bars, beam and fx. You cannot have a competitive start value without it. What this means is that a super tumbler elite gymnast may emphasize CC, EA and CD connections while a super tumbler JO gymnast may emphasize isolated Es or a double layout.

There are also significant bar differences at elite. A super clean Level 10 routine with added reverse grip and added circling elements (elite gymnasts tend to do toe hand, clearhip and stalder hand in elite in order to hit 8 elements after performing their L10 elements) can get a basic score, but "clean" means nearly perfect. Also, by and large, 90% of elite gymnasts do bar skills that 90% of gyms in this country do not coach. Front giants and D dismounts are semi-rare in JO, but certainly used; however, circling 360s (not from a giant), eagle grips, DD and DE connections aren't in a normal - or even winning - JO routine.

 

[Muddlethru]

So far, there are only around 40 jr international elites in 2011, but there were over 70 in 2010. Not every year is the same. The rules change, the parameters change (i.e., building years vs. Olympic years), and the qualifying procedures change. At the three national qualifiers in 2011, maybe only five kids have qualified as new jr international elites.

Skillswise, currently, there are very significant differences between L10 and elite. In elite, only 8 skills count and on fx and beam, 5 of those must be dance skills. That means that young children need to be introduced C and D dance skill timers at roughly the same time they are introduced C and D acro timers. Children who lack flexibility may have trouble with dance requirement at elite, but not at JO.

It is also very difficult to get connection awarded in elite (called bonus in JO) and connection is the heart of success at elite on bars, beam and fx. You cannot have a competitive start value without it. What this means is that a super tumbler elite gymnast may emphasize CC, EA and CD connections while a super tumbler JO gymnast may emphasize isolated Es or a double layout.

There are also significant bar differences at elite. A super clean Level 10 routine with added reverse grip and added circling elements (elite gymnasts tend to do toe hand, clearhip and stalder hand in elite in order to hit 8 elements after performing their L10 elements) can get a basic score, but "clean" means nearly perfect. Also, by and large, 90% of elite gymnasts do bar skills that 90% of gyms in this country do not coach. Front giants and D dismounts are semi-rare in JO, but certainly used; however, circling 360s (not from a giant), eagle grips, DD and DE connections aren't in a normal - or even winning - JO routine.

Pretty good comparison above. I am hard pressed to believe that those gymnasts that qualify to the elite level are sloppy as some people in this thread have indicated. I think often times the "elites" they describe are not true elites but gymnasts merely trying to qualify to the elite level. Many make the misconception that these gymnasts seen at elite qualifiers are already elite, when in fact they are not. Even gyms label their girls elite once they are put in an elite program, even if they still have not qualified. Our gym is even guilty of this. Our "elite gymnast has not qualified in 4 years and in her website she lists herself as a senior elite. I don't think she is trying to mislead anyone. I think sometimes the gymnast herself is not fully informed of the rules and requirements. Very few of the girls that are put in an elite program actually make elite. I have seen many "sloppy" gymnasts at elite qualifiers and those gymnasts never make it to elite unless their routine is pristine. It is quite evident when true elites are put up against a L10 JO, their skills are still of a different caliber. I can guarantee if you pick any junior and senior elite in the VISA Championships and compare the quality of the skills to any JO champion, there will be a markedly difference.

As another poster said, this year there are only 40 junior elite gymnasts. The US has 50 states. So, it is even unlikely there is a junior elite gymnast in your state. However, there may be 50 trying to qualify in each state. So when another poster said they saw a "lot of elites" at meet who were sloppy, it is clear to me that what they were viewing were not true elites yet but girls trying to get to the elite level. And only a few of these gymnasts training to go elite actually make it to the elite level.

As an aside, many gymnasts who participated in a TOPS testing think they made it to TOPS. The names of all the gymnasts that made it to the TOPS National Team, A and B and even the younger group, Diamond and Gold level, since its inception is posted in the USAG website. I have yet to see a name of someone who has told me they made it to TOPS in the website. Again, our gym does the same. They call my daughter a TOPS member, but she never qualified to the National Team only to the national testing. I let our gym call her that but I personally don't make that representation because I've read enough about the program to know better.

 

[monkeysmom]

Keep Em Sweet and Tender

In the words of that crusty old guy who used to be on TV "I've learned its best to keep my words sweet and tender because I may be eating them one day."

To the previous poster's quote: "I can guarantee if you pick any junior and senior elite in the VISA Championships and compare the quality of the skills to any JO champion, there will be a markedly difference. "

You might need to add some strawberries or chocolate sauce and eat those words this year (perhaps one or two of them will be at VISAs).....

 

[Muddlethru]

In the words of that crusty old guy who used to be on TV "I've learned its best to keep my words sweet and tender because I may be eating them one day."

To the previous poster's quote: "I can guarantee if you pick any junior and senior elite in the VISA Championships and compare the quality of the skills to any JO champion, there will be a markedly difference. "

You might need to add some strawberries or chocolate sauce and eat those words this year (perhaps one or two of them will be at VISAs).....

To monkeysmom, I am just keeping it real. The negative connotations you put onto that statement, is your own and not mine. As such, there are truly no words that need to sweetened (or eaten in the future). To state that there is a markedly difference between a JO athlete and an elite athlete is the truth. And there is no way around it. I did not say one was better than the other, just that they are different. For me to even imply that they may be the same is wholly inaccurate. I also never said a JO athlete can never get to the elite level.

The purpose of my post is merely to stand in defense of elite athletes being called sloppy. I just wanted to be clear in that the gymnasts being called sloppy are actual current elites and not just aspiring elites. In addition, I was agreeing with the differences lemonlime was making between a JO athlete and an elite athlete.

Training for Elite is drastically different in many ways than training a J.O. team. It requires extreme mental flexibility and careful planning and is a much tougher job for coaches. The seasons are totally different. J.O. competitions are in the spring and the J.O. gymnasts are in their off-season in the summer. Elites must be training routines in the summer because the official Elite meets are in the summer and international meets are in the late summer and early fall.

Basically, training for Elite means switching to the new set of International rules and training for maximum difficulty. Elites need to get and train according to FIG rules unlike USAG values of many skills. The level of difficulty to make and be successful at the Elite level is as high or even higher now than it ever was.

There are more and more gyms opening each year and yet less gyms producing Elite gymnasts. Producing an Elite gymnast, especially one who does not make the Olympic Team is often a money losing process for a coach and gym. So elite programs have to be more stringent, requires more time, commitment, money, skill, etc.; a lot of extras! I have never implied or even think that elite gymnasts are better than JO athletes. The two programs are vastly different, so I would hope that the product would also be vastly different. I don't think there is any harsh about that. It is what it is.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

4theloveofsports: Very well written post. If anyone reads any negativity or judgment in what you've posted, well then, they're just looking for an argument!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

elite is what it is. 4theloveof sports stated it very well.