WAG Which vault is easier to flip?

[CuriousCate]

Question first, before the long tale of why I am asking! In your experience as a gymnast, coach, judge, parent, etc, is a Yurchenko or a Tsuk easier to flip?

Background is that my DD broke her shoulder at the main growth plate last year, seemed to recover fine. Then this year started having severe pain and weakness after doing a lot of pirouettes and after learning to flip her vault. The xrays showed that she had actually started to close down the growth plate due to repetitive stress (Little Leaguers shoulder). She modified (no weight bearing on the arms) for 8 weeks and xrays looked much better. All that to say that the orthopaedist and therapist are both convinced that Yurchenkos place too much stress across the shoulders and elbows of skeletally immature kids and told her she needed a new vault or would end up permanently shutting down her growth plate and requiring surgery. Their preference on timing for resuming Yurchenkos is when she is more skeletally mature and the growth plate is closer to closing naturally with age and growth. So she moved to a Tsuk 2 weeks before the season started and then had to repeat level 7 because she obviously did not have time to learn to flip the Tsuk. The hope was by the end of the season, she would be flipping them and finish out as an 8, but it just did not happen.

On my observation, the Tsuk seems so hard to flip because of the hand position, but I cannot tell if this is just her poor interpretation of the timer/vault since it is new and different for her. Should the hands hit the table simultaneously and leave simultaneously? Is it hard to block in that sideways position? The Yurchenko looked very natural when she moved from a timer to flipping but the Tsuk looks....well...odd. Much less powerful.

 

[aerials]

Wow...I've never thought of the vaults that way. What a scary situation for you and your daughter to be in with her shoulder. In terms of what is easiest to flip it would look like the Yurchenkos would be easier but it really depends on the gymnast. My daughter could never get a Tsuk good enough and had an easier time with her Yurchenko. However most of the girls on her team flip Tsuks, they find it easier. I think the difference is that it takes less power to flip from a Yurchenko but it has a scarier entry.

 

[QuietColours]

Watching adults learning or trying to get back a flipping vault, most people seem to go for the tsuk, but I'm not sure if it's because it's technically easier (and they just want a flipping vault, they aren't aiming to get a 10.0 NCAA start value), or if it's because they're often training with minimal coaching and the tsuk is less scary and/or technically complex to (re)learn on your own

 

[LJL07]

I remember about the shoulder. That is rough.

I am by no means an expert, but one daughter started with the tsuk on level 8 due to a foot injury. She didn't have time to learn the entry for the yurchenko.

I think the technique and entry for the tsuk is easier but it requires more power to flip it. The yurchenko is more "technically" difficult but requires less power to flip because you are getting a lot of power out of the round off. I have heard plenty of people criticize the tsuk as being the "easy" vault, but I don't believe that. My daughter who did the tsuk is fast and a little more powerful. My youngest found flipping a tsuk to be pretty hard actually. I think the reason the yurchenko is more widely used now is because it is easier to do the layout and twisting layout out of the yurchenko. Once you get past doing a pike tsuk, it gets very, very difficult to do a layout tsuk and a twisting layout tsuk. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Flopsygymnast]

Just from watching lvl 6-10 meets it seems like most kids do yurchenkos from lvl 8 when they actually flip it but they do a tsuk timer in lvl 6-7. I guess this fits in with what @LJL07 is saying.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Learning the entry for the Yurchenko is harder and it takes longer to get it consistent enough to safely flip

But once the entry is mastered the Yurchenko is easier to flip. It has more power and is easier to keep straight after the table.

Many coaches will teach their gymnasts to flip their tsukahara first while mastering the Yurchenko entry, so they get used to the feeling of flipping.

 

[Tigtimes]

so it was explained to me by a coach when my kid switched gyms that they preferred a yurchenko vault as it was easier to achieve a vault with a 10 start value with that entry. The tusk is actually a harder vault as it takes more power and more difficult to progress past a pike. Or so I was told. Mine currently does a tusk layout as she was never comfortable with a yurchenko entry.

 

[kendo348]

This is enlightening! I’ve always assumed tsuks were easier, probably because as was mentioned the entry seems simpler and less scary. I have new respect for the girls flipping tsuks.

On a tangent... Does height tend to be a consideration in which entry athletes choose to pursue, or is that not a main relevant factor?

 

[JBS]

Here is an old thread too...

WAG - Yurchenko vs. Tsuk - which one is harder?

Is a tsukahara or a yurchenko easier to learn? which one has a higher value? DD started with tsuks last week, although she is only L6. All of the girls could do them into the pit. After practice she told me her coach said that tsuk is something really hard. It might look easy into the pit, but...

www.chalkbucket.com

 

[Carabistouille]

For what it's worth, in FIG, Tsuk are worth 0,2 more than their Yurchenko counterparts in start value.
For instance, a tucked Tsuk is worth 3,5 and a tucked Yurchenko 3,3. A piked Tsuk is worth 3,7 and a piked Yurchenko 3,5...

 

[PeanutsMom]

I have to agree with what's been posted previously. A lot (not all) of our girls do the tsuk for level 6-7, but then switch in level 8. However, those who switch in Level 8 take a lot longer to learn the flip because they haven't been doing the Yurchenko entry. We do have several level 8s who have keep the Tsuk and been very successful flipping it. Most of these girls are older/ taller and I don't know if it is because of their size that they are successful at flipping it better than the smaller girls. That would line up with what was said about the power from the round off helping to flip the Yurchenko.

Is it possible for your DD to not do vault for a season while her shoulder heals? We do have 2 level 8s who are specialists for similar reasons. One doesn't do bars or vault due to a shoulder injury that is similar to what you have describe. The other had Tommy John surgery on her elbow and doesn't do vault or bars currently, but will be allowed vault back after rehab. Would it be worth moving up to level 8 as a specialist and training vault a little at time so as not to impact the injury while still improving the skills needed for vault?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Tsuk is easier and less scary to learn, but harder to do cleanly. Yurchenko takes more time to safely develop, but is easier once mastered.

(Having said that, Kazamatsu/Tsuk full is incredibly easy compared to its start value, and I'm baffled that it isn't more popular on the women's side)

 

[sun]

I was just thinking today about tsuk full at practice.. like, a full is p easy.. a tsuk is p easy..
Where are the tsuk fulls??

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I was just thinking today about tsuk full at practice.. like, a full is p easy.. a tsuk is p easy..
Where are the tsuk fulls??

The 1/1 makes it easier to stick, honestly; you can spot the landing so much earlier.

 

[CuriousCate]

Is it possible for your DD to not do vault for a season while her shoulder heals? We do have 2 level 8s who are specialists for similar reasons. One doesn't do bars or vault due to a shoulder injury that is similar to what you have describe. The other had Tommy John surgery on her elbow and doesn't do vault or bars currently, but will be allowed vault back after rehab. Would it be worth moving up to level 8 as a specialist and training vault a little at time so as not to impact the injury while still improving the skills needed for vault?

Her shoulder is healed, thankfully. But with the repeated injuries to the same growth plate, the recommendation was to avoid yurchenkos until she is more skeletally mature to prevent further injury. I doubt her gym would allow her to skip vault for a season unless she was actively injured (God-willing that won't happen again!). From what I've seen, even at level 10, they don't seem to support the idea of event specialization.

 

[gymnastaly17]

I am a gymnast and from my experience a yurchanko is easier to land but harder to flip. So that would mean then a tsuk is easier to flip but is harder to land in my opinion.

 

[Soaring]

A yurchenko is more complex and can be scarier with the background entry. The flipping action itself is generally easier for a yurchenko. I would say that it is easier to attempt a tsuk but easier to perfect a yurchenko.

 

[mhesport]

Tsuk is easier and less scary to learn, but harder to do cleanly. Yurchenko takes more time to safely develop, but is easier once mastered.

(Having said that, Kazamatsu/Tsuk full is incredibly easy compared to its start value, and I'm baffled that it isn't more popular on the women's side)

Sorry, late to this party, but I could not agree more with your comment regarding the Tsuk/Kaz full not being as popular on the women's side! I have an athlete training a Kaz full (back issues, no yurchenkos) and the only issue I've found is that there's not a lot of "training videos" that get into specific detail about this vault. Yes, the basics are out there, but I can't seem to find out enough about the actual twisting and flipping coming off the table which is significantly different than twisting/flipping a yurchenko. Any suggestions as to where I can find more information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Sorry, late to this party, but I could not agree more with your comment regarding the Tsuk/Kaz full not being as popular on the women's side! I have an athlete training a Kaz full (back issues, no yurchenkos) and the only issue I've found is that there's not a lot of "training videos" that get into specific detail about this vault. Yes, the basics are out there, but I can't seem to find out enough about the actual twisting and flipping coming off the table which is significantly different than twisting/flipping a yurchenko. Any suggestions as to where I can find more information would be greatly appreciated.

I don't have any detailed videos on hand, but it's comparatively easy to train. Here's the general process:

First, make sure the athlete is comfortable with a front 1/2. They should be able to do it tucked or laid out, on trampoline or on floor, spotting the landing the whole time, comfortably enough that they can chuck it casually on a whim.

Next step is to develop a kaz-front. That is, 1/4 on, 1/4 off to face forward, front salto. Sort of like RO-arabian, but without ever bothering to square the roundoff. Crucially, they should see the landing after coming off the table and before flipping.

Then it's a simple matter of turning the front salto into a front 1/2. Easy, intuitive, and they can see the ground the entire time.

 

[JBS]

I like this video...