WAG Xcel and JO

[ivyagogo]

Yes, I know it's been talked to death here but I'm tired of my Xcel girls being slaughtered by girls skipping JO compulsory levels. It's really just not fair to have girls training 6-8 hours a week competing against girls training 16-20 hours a week.

Will the USAG ever relax the rigidity of the compulsory levels to give the Xcel girls a fighting chance? Also, how can girls register as both JO and Xcel in the same season?

We had a meet this weekend where the winning team took the top 6 spots. There is really something wrong and the USAG needs to address and fix this.

Sorry. Ranting.

 

[2G1B]

In our area USAG Xcel is pretty much exclusively now used for training until girls are ready for optionals and then they just score out of levels 4 and 5. I think that a lot of gyms that want a true Xcel program use AAU Xcel as the lower hour option.

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I mean, it is what it is for our area and most of the state seems to be going this route; but I'm not sure if the other gyms in our REGION are using it this way, so I'm not sure how fair it is for regionals...

 

[MILgymFAM]

Even if they couldn't do both at once, people would still find a way. At my DDs xcel states, for gold, the girl who absolutely killed everyone had done well at regionals at L7, took a season off to train (whole optional team did at that gym) then jumped into xcel gold. Surprising that she totally ran the competition? Nope, but why they would want to do that is beyond me. It's one of the (many) reasons we left xcel for JO. My dd will have a more level playing field, where everyone is training similar hours and has to show the same skills. It just seems more fair imo.

 

[cbifoja]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I agree with the unfairness of it. I also agree with the poster who mentioned the emptiness of winning when you're training at a higher level.

 

[gymbeam]

i completely agree with it not being fair for those that truly want a less rigoruous competitive experience.

i will say that im proud our gym seperates their "Xcel forever" girls from their "Xcel to JO" girls (who compete bronze & silver then jump over to level 4) and does not take the later to the xcel state meets. They could sweep it if they wanted to, but they don't.

 

[GymRays]

This is our first year doing xcel. I definately have noticed gyms that bounce between xcel and jo and back. NoT a fan. We were a gym that did compulsory till this year. Now we are xcel only. Girls that want jo optionals upgrade their gold routines till they are equal to lvl 5 skills (still compete xcel but their full upgraded, not bare min) then will score out and do lvl 6.
We have 3 xcel gold on this path who practice with our Team optional girls ( more hours than my group) and compete for experience until they score out to lvl 6. But again, not bare min so often they get beat by other xcel golds, including my pre team girls at times.

 

[gymgal]

It really depends on where you live. Region 8 had a really strong prep-op program developed long before USAG made it national. And NC/SC and parts of GA/TN had strong programs before it became regionalized in R8. The programs were designed to incorporate compulsory girls - give them optional experience in the off season - and give to options after/instead of L6 (old) if they weren't ready for L7. It was never developed solely to be a less intense alternative program in our area. So it is unlikely that it will go that route now.

In other areas where xcel really wasn't around before nationalizing it, xcel tends to be what USAG wants it to be - alternative, less intense program. It can definitely be frustrating for gyms with minimal hours competing against gyms who have 2x as many hours. But that happens in compulsory as well. as well as gym who work upgrades for future levels vs those who train only the present level.

 

[gymdog]

Even if they couldn't do both at once, people would still find a way. At my DDs xcel states, for gold, the girl who absolutely killed everyone had done well at regionals at L7, took a season off to train (whole optional team did at that gym) then jumped into xcel gold. Surprising that she totally ran the competition? Nope, but why they would want to do that is beyond me. It's one of the (many) reasons we left xcel for JO. My dd will have a more level playing field, where everyone is training similar hours and has to show the same skills. It just seems more fair imo.

Looking at the results it doesn't seem like that was the case for anyone who competed gold at those states. Out of the top ten Golds overall, no one appears to have competed above maybe a level 5 all around, and about half the girls have nothing but Xcel listed at all (no JO level meets). So, maybe someone was mistaken in informing you about that.

Xcel requirements do a leave a lot of room due to there only being five levels with the 5th level not making a whole lot of sense (at least to me, most girls with the skill requirements to have the SVs are in level 8 or IES 9 and 10). So there is a lot of room to either go above certain requirements for your level, or do very easy routines and score higher.

 

[ivyagogo]

Then why bother having two tracks? If there are that many gyms forgoing the compulsory levels, then change the compulsory levels!

BTW, I'm in Region 6.

 

[gymdog]

Relaxing the compulsory levels really isn't going to give kids who aren't scoring high or competitive in Xcel a "fighting chance." There are already kids scoring 9.7-10 in the most competitive regions regularly, if the levels are relaxed I can't even imagine what it would be...either way, if you're not getting 38s because of execution in Xcel I can't imagine how you'll be more competitive in JO compulsories where execution is everything and many kids in competitive areas have near flawless execution.

 

[duyetanh]

At DDs gym, the xcel golds would have been level 4s this year comparitively....
Their season paralleled the JO program, so both were done end of March. My kid's gym does the abridged season, lol...I love it. Dec to late March. Done. There is a meet in Sept to score out for optionals...DD will try this at that time. I do think it would bother me, but it seems very common, as teams want titles, etc. Personally I am glad her gym doesn't do this style, as my kid would have been a level 2 for the second season in a row....instead of a 4. But if all i ever knew was this style, i would probably think it was fine, as this would be what I know, and all I knew. Make sense? If not, apologies...

 

[GYM0M]

I see both sides of the argument, but I don't know where the happy medium should lie. The only way to stop gyms from going the Xcel route is to not allow an Xcel gymnast to crossover to JO and vice versa. Can you imagine the uproar that would create???? I personally do not know of any gyms in my state that compete Xcel, not saying that there aren't any, but I have never seen it. Most girls that are not interested in JO compete TAAF (TX version of AAU, from what I have gathered). TAAF has a tier system (don't know if AAU does that). Once a gymnast receives a certain score, they move up in the tier so gymmies who have never scored above a 32 AA compete against the gymmies in the same boat, but there are no age divisions. So each system has its flaws.........

 

[ivyagogo]

Gymdog, you missed my point. If JO did away with compulsories, those kids would stay in JO keeping a distinction between JO and Xcel.

 

[duyetanh]

But would they only then compete one part of the year, or just continue moving up in JO program for the second part? Sorry...confused here...

 

[MILgymFAM]

Looking at the results...

I may have been mistaken, but looking back at the stuff I do know this the trend- this pic is two girls from the same gym, same level- one girl came from the L5 team and the other only did xcel. This is the common difference in scores I have seen personally at meets. Xcel here seems to do around 6 hrs. L5 between 12-17. IMO, there is absolutely no way kids could be equally prepared.

For the record both these girls had some of the highest vault scores I have seen at gold. The JO vault coach for this gym was amazing. He retired and I would be interested in seeing their vaults going forward.

I totally agree that the incredibly wide range of skills allowed per level is another bigger issue. Just because it was intended to be less intense than JO doesn't mean all the skills had to crammed into half the levels. They need a few more levels, maybe. I don't know. In the end I do know it's impossible to make everyone happy.

 

[z2akids]

Unfortunately, there us no perfect world. Even if you eliminate the issues between xcel and JO, then you have to look at JO. They're you have girls doing TOPS with significant hours and massive skills competing in compulsory levels. In my State there are a few gyms that have TOPS programs, homeschool programs, etc. and this girls are next to impossible to beat. Add the ones who repeat compulsory levels even when they podiumed the previous season. We competed against a team last season where every one of their L3 girls had a gorgeous kip and casts to handstand.

The way we handle it with DD is to remind her that she should be competing only against herself. She cannot control the competition. And, honestly, you cannot even control the scoring from meet to meet.

So as frustrating as it is that none of the playing fields are level, I just smile, tell DD his proud I am of her and go get ice cream.

 

[ivyagogo]

Excellent perspective. Thanks for that.

 

[cbifoja]

Couldn't USAG mandate a maximum number of hours allowed for practice time? So Silver can practice X hours a week but no more or they are ineligble? Obviously, it would have to be on the honor system and you can't help it if coaches flat out lie/cheat but at least it would be even clearer that they disapprove of having JO kids come in and sweep Xcel awards.

 

[twinmomma]

Couldn't USAG mandate a maximum number of hours allowed for practice time? So Silver can practice X hours a week but no more or they are ineligble? Obviously, it would have to be on the honor system and you can't help it if coaches flat out lie/cheat but at least it would be even clearer that they disapprove of having JO kids come in and sweep Xcel awards.

Sure. They could. But how are you going to enforce it? I feel like this encourages "spying" from other gyms and "tattling" rather than focusing on training.

My DD moved from Xcel Bronze to JO L3, training L4. Our gym does not have a strong Xcel program, but we went up against gyms that clearly did. It wasn't apparent in our area that Xcel was getting used to bypass compulsory levels. There just doesn't seem to be enough of an established precedent for that here. But we definitely saw gyms that had girls competing XB who could have easily been L4 in JO, which was incredibly frustrating. I'm a big fan of the Xcel ideal, but execution wise I think it's discouraging the very kids it was supposed to bring in - less intensity, fewer hours, more "fun" competing.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I think even the JO hours vary widely with gyms

These are our minumums
L2 2x a week, 5-6 hours
L3 & L4, 3x a week, 7.5 hours
L5 to L9, 3x a week, 9 hours

Many girls add a day so that would be another 2-3 hours
So our maximums are
L2, 9 hours
L3 & L4, 10 hours
L 5 to L9, 12 hours
Even if they went 5-6 days and few do they would max out at 15-18 hours.

They squeeze in some more time over the summer, with week long gym camps, encouraged but not required. Same with school holidays, they have gym camp days, again encouraged but not required.

We don't have any kid required to be putting 20 hours a week, especially at the lower levels.