WAG Random, possibly naive question about assessing program quality

[josie55]

Just a musing here....

Sometimes when a member posts about looking at other gyms, those offering advice say something along the lines of "make sure you check meetscores to see if their upper optionals are HOME GROWN." The implication, as I read it, is that a program that gets many of its upper optionals from other programs is either (a) not as good as those whose upper optionals are all home grown, and/or (b) not as capable of coaching compulsories. I am not sure if I agree, and want to understand what I am missing.

It seems to me that in many areas there are not that many programs that have a large, successful upper optional program. I'm guessing it's a combination of lots of things, including coaching and equipment. And it makes sense to me as to why -- if a gymnast was ready to move to upper optionals -- that they may want to find a successful program that has a decent-sized team.

So for those programs that take in kids from other gyms at the upper levels, why does this make their program questionable? I "get" that it's an awesome testament for a program to be able to grow a lot of gymnasts from compulsories to L10, but the reality is that most compulsory gymnasts don't make it to L10, so if a program is capable of coaching L10 successfully, wouldn't it be pretty standard that a decent portion of those would come from other programs?

I feel like I've got to be missing something here, but am not quite sure what it is.... What do you guys think?

 

[RTT2]

My own uninformed and possibly naïve perspective on this comes from the fact that DD's gym has a strong optionals program and most come over from other gyms. This concerns me a bit because I sometimes feel that their focus is more on the upper level athletes with less coaching resources going to the lower levels. At times it feels like the lower levels are just a base to support the upper levels- as long as there is a steady stream of paying customers at the lower levels they may not care much (or put much into) their advancement knowing they will pull girls from other gyms at the upper levels. I don't know that this is a planned strategy, but if I were moving to another gym it is a question I would ask because I think it speaks to the overall commitment they have to the athlete's path through the sport.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

I'm not an expert here either, but I think the point is if most of the girls are coming from other gyms, what has happened to the girls that did go through the lower levels at that gym. Why aren't some/more of them still there by level 9/10? If all of their home grown girls are quitting or changing gyms, then that would be worrisome and might make you question the coaching or gym philosophy. So basically I agree with RTT.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Isn't long term customer loyalty a positive sign when evaluating any business? Especially one that is going to be taking a lot of your money and have extensive involvement with your children?

 

[mommyof1]

I don’t think taking in high-level gymnasts is what’s problematic. It’s the failure to get the gym’s own kids to the upper levels that signals a problem with the training at the lower levels. A gym that loses a lot of kids on the way to upper optionals and then brings in a bunch of others to replace them might be a very good gym at the upper levels, but might not be giving the lower-level kids what they need to progress. A gym that gets a good proportion of its own lower-level kids to the upper levels probably has a solid lower-level program, even if it augments that group with a lot of upper-level transfers. So I would say it’s not the proportion of homegrown L10s to transfers that matters, it’s the proportion of L4s or L7s (or, really, of kids at your child’s current level) that eventually make it to L10 at the same gym.

 

[josie55]

Right, and those are some good points. I guess where I struggle to understand is that let’s say a gym has 15 level 3s. I know there’s a lot of attrition with the sport, so at an average gym how many would make it to L10? Two? (I don’t actually know but am guessing someone does.) So do we expect more of a gym that has ten L10s? Because to me, a gym that gets half of their L3s to L10 would signal that they are just REALLY particular about who they would take on team. I wonder what would be a reasonable proportion of L10s to be expected to be home grown, for a program that has a large upper optional team?

I had never thought about the point that a program with really strong upper optional may not prioritize compulsories. I could see that being a concern with some programs perhaps.

 

[amiandjim]

I just took a brief look on mymeetscores and our gym had 14 level 10s compete at state this year. Of those, I think 11 of them were at our gym from level 4-10, with the exception of a couple girls who left briefly and then came back. I think that’s a pretty good number! However, you also have to look at how long a gym has been open, etc... The gym we recently left has only been open for 7-8 years so of course, some of the upper levels were not home grown bc it’s just now getting to the point that a girl would go from level 3-10 at that gym.

 

[josie55]

I just took a brief look on mymeetscores and our gym had 14 level 10s compete at state this year. Of those, I think 11 of them were at our gym from level 4-10, with the exception of a couple girls who left briefly and then came back. I think that’s a pretty good number! .

I think that’s amazing!!! Wow!!

 

[amiandjim]

I think that’s amazing!!! Wow!!

I’m bored so I looked a little further and of the 22 level 8/9s that competed at state this year, all but 3 had been at the gym since compulsories!

 

[RTT2]

I’m bored so I looked a little further and of the 22 level 8/9s that competed at state this year, all but 3 had been at the gym since compulsories!

I think that speaks very well of their program.

 

[gasrgoose]

Right, and those are some good points. I guess where I struggle to understand is that let’s say a gym has 15 level 3s. I know there’s a lot of attrition with the sport, so at an average gym how many would make it to L10? Two? (I don’t actually know but am guessing someone does.) So do we expect more of a gym that has ten L10s? Because to me, a gym that gets half of their L3s to L10 would signal that they are just REALLY particular about who they would take on team. I wonder what would be a reasonable proportion of L10s to be expected to be home grown, for a program that has a large upper optional team?

I had never thought about the point that a program with really strong upper optional may not prioritize compulsories. I could see that being a concern with some programs perhaps.

I think you are reading a little too much into what people have said. The question was asked, "how do i evaluate" and this was provided as an answer. There isn't a ratio that is good or bad, it is just ONE way to evaluate a program and you make the decision with the information.

 

[Gymmamabear]

I don't think this matters! At our gym we have a much stronger upper level optional program than lower levels. Meaning we don't win as much in levels 7 and below. Parents like their child to win so they want a good gym for winning. Our level 8-10 wins and is large so we get a lot of girls at these levels who were at stronger gyms for the lower levels but may not have as strong of upper level program or send as many girls to college so they come to ours.

 

[jillc]

I don't think this matters! At our gym we have a much stronger upper level optional program than lower levels.

But I think this IS the point. If I am looking for a gym for a Level 3 or 4 — the way you describe your gym makes me nervous to go there.

How they score or place at those lower levels isn’t nearly as important as the progress of those at lower levels. If very few of them ever make it to your strong optional program — it might be a terrific gym but maybe not where I want to send a level 3 or 4 gymnast.

If I am looking for a gym for a Level 8 gymnast. Your gym might be a perfect fit.

 

[Gymmamabear]

But I think this IS the point. If I am looking for a gym for a Level 3 or 4 — the way you describe your gym makes me nervous to go there.

How they score or place at those lower levels isn’t nearly as important as the progress of those at lower levels. If very few of them ever make it to your strong optional program — it might be a terrific gym but maybe not where I want to send a level 3 or 4 gymnast.

If I am looking for a gym for a Level 8 gymnast. Your gym might be a perfect fit.

True! I forgot about the people looking for a lower level program. At our gym the girls do stay but we are not that gym that wins compulsories and I feel like now (more than when my daughter was in them) people want a more winning gym.

 

[duyetanh]

But I think this IS the point. If I am looking for a gym for a Level 3 or 4 — the way you describe your gym makes me nervous to go there.

How they score or place at those lower levels isn’t nearly as important as the progress of those at lower levels. If very few of them ever make it to your strong optional program — it might be a terrific gym but maybe not where I want to send a level 3 or 4 gymnast.

If I am looking for a gym for a Level 8 gymnast. Your gym might be a perfect fit.

Oftentimes the gym that works for a level 4 does not work for a level 9 or 10. It’s just the way it is. That’s what makes those gyms that have homegrown girls all the way through the levels truly special. And it’s also why girls leave gyms once they hit certain levels and go elsewhere. It’s not because they don’t like their gym they have been at...but they pretty much have to move on if they are going to further their gymnastics.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

I think it is part of the big picture of a gym. To ME, it says a lot about the gym if they have gymnasts that not only stay with them from compulsories through Optionals, but also visit every chance they get or choose to work there while attending college or beyond. We have several coaches, adults, some that have other jobs as well as some that do not, that were once gymnasts at our (medium sized and somewhat successful) gym. Some that have gone on to coach at other gyms in larger cities and then come BACK to us. I think it speaks positively for the kind of program and philosophy a gym has. Now, bigger gyms can and do churn out great gymnasts, homegrown or not, but some of them may not form that close bond with the gymnasts.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

Adding to my response: looking at retention of gymnasts (having the ability to coach from L3-L10 and beyond) is great. As long as one remembers that of course there is always huge drops in numbers in between those extremes... a gym that has 25 L3’s is, IMHO doing pretty great if they have 5+ homegrown L9’s. Out of the (15or so) girls DD started preteam with, 10 did L4 (there were a few repeaters from the prior year, her L4 team had 13-14 girls in it) and at this point, 5 are still here and competing L8/9. To me, that is pretty good retention!! There are always pretty large drops whenever there is a larger financial/hour commitment (between L3-4, and again heading into Optionals) as well as when kids start middle school or high school. Kids get hurt. Kids get tired of it and want to do something else. Lots of reasons kids quit gymnastics along the way.

 

[josie55]

@SurpriseGymMom Yes, that makes sense to me, and is why I always found it curious when people would warn others about programs whose L10 teams were not all home grown. I'm really amazed and impressed with the track record of the gym that @amiandjim 's child goes to, but I have to imagine that is really the exception, versus the norm. I wonder if a program like MG Elite, where they seem to really hand-pick a highly selective and small group of kids to be on team, keeps most of them through L10 and doesn't take on new kids at the upper levels? I have no idea, actually.

 

[Flyaway]

@SurpriseGymMom Yes, that makes sense to me, and is why I always found it curious when people would warn others about programs whose L10 teams were not all home grown. I'm really amazed and impressed with the track record of the gym that @amiandjim 's child goes to, but I have to imagine that is really the exception, versus the norm. I wonder if a program like MG Elite, where they seem to really hand-pick a highly selective and small group of kids to be on team, keeps most of them through L10 and doesn't take on new kids at the upper levels? I have no idea, actually.

I'm digressing, but I've always been curious about MG Elite's selection procedure since they have very small teams compared to other elite level gyms.

 

[amiandjim]

It’s actually a very well known, large gym. My daughter’s level 4 team will have around 27ish i think (should find out in June). It is selective but not crazily so, they have girls who score 37-38 in compulsory and also some who score 33-36. We just moved last month from another very good gym in the area so I’m not 100% sure how it all works just yet but it seems a very well organized machine who gives each girl a chance to get to optionals. Lots of uptraining (some of the current level 3s have cast handstand, etc) but also doesn’t hold girls back to win. Not many repeating compulsory levels .