WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[duyetanh]

I'm so appalled, but with the sheer numbers of girls that have come forward, I can't say that I'm surprised. I feel terrible for each and every one of them. I'm sure I've voiced this opinion in the past but I will reiterate that I strongly feel it comes down to the culture in this sport where girls are typically trained to be compliant rather than empowered, especially at the higher levels where on top of the expectation of obedience, a girl's dreams are in the hands of just a few people that might not have their priorities straight. I really, really hope that it will start to change going forward. Very proud of (and thankful for) all who have been brave enough to speak out.

Yes, and how many more are left that will speak out is truly the question now.

 

[CAKE]

So the bottom line is we need zero tolerance. To all of it. Coaches saying kids are fat, ignoring them, using punishments. Pushing them so hard with high hours, until they injure.

We need to believe kids when they say a coach is mean, or has said x or y. As parents we need to say this is not acceptable, and go find another club or sport.

What Tatiana says is particularly poignant. Those people knew and didn’t speak up. I have seen that so many times- not sexual, but physical and emotional. We need to teach our kids to tell if a team mate is being ignored, yelled at for no reason.

What is it about gymnastics and sport that makes people think they have to put up with this? We don’t. If our kids quit gymnastics that’s no big deal compared to being sexually, physically or emotionally abused for years.

Thank you for this post!

Parents, we have to change this sport. This is crazy. I dont understand why it is being done like this still. How in the world am I supposed to teach my children to just do what the coach says unquestioningly??? Ill never teach my little girl to just "obey" any man. And yes, I get these skills are scary and require the overcoming of fear.. BUT...coaches earn trust by being excellent coaches, not because the sport has created crazy culture where nobody questions abuse.

WTF is going on with screaming at children? I just dont get why grown adults cant come up with better ways. The dynasty of Karolyi is crumbling. We dont have to do it this way anymore with threats, shame, compliance... overtraining, over impact... Why not innovate and turn this sport into what it has the potential to be?

We are seeing the impact of the training style of "never question authority, just do what your coach says" on our best and brightest gymnasts and we have to take their experience and do something with it so the next generation can chase their dreams without having to endure such nightmares.

It is up to the parents to STOP allowing this crap. Some parents actually ask for yelling, for coaches to be harder on kids. I just think it is crazy cakes. The the same parents that cant tell their child no, Ive literally heard ask a coach to "smack their kid around in privates if they are wasting my money". It wasnt said in that funny of a manner either.

It's a shame the sport is not innovating, but stagnating in an eastern block inspired coaching style that is breaking young people.

 

[CAKE]

Regarding child abuse prevention:

Coaching staff deciding if parents should be “Allowed”, or not, to watch their own (minor) children practice sports is an outdated concept from several decades ago. The world has moved on, and current expectations are certainly much different.

When parents are “Allowed” unlimited access to their children (i.e. made welcome to watch any and all practices, visit with their children at training camps, etc.), then a few things happen:

1. We think coaches aren’t trying to hide questionable interactions with our children.
2. Credibility of the system increases exponentially because of openness.
3. We can sense much quicker when something isn’t right with our own child.
4. Most parents would not watch practices most of the time.

In gymnastics, it also makes it much more likely that we will “Allow” a gym to coach our children.

I almost never watch practices. I intermittently (rarely) do spot checks. However, I need to know that I can check up on my child’s environment – anytime, without notice.

I went all over the U.S. house hunting and looked at many gyms. The ones who had a no viewing policy were immediately off the table. Anyone that would make a rule like that about MY minor child was immediately suspect. Im an educator so it baffles the mind that Im supposed to let someone with no formal degree, no oversight process, no certifications just have private access to my child.

I have no desire to watch every practice but I do stick around like a hawk when Im new to a gym deciding if I trust these people to do very dangerous things with my very young children. If you refuse to pay the tuition to a gym with closed viewing no matter how many elites they've turned out the tide will continue to turn and I believe parents are getting wiser and expecting more excellence instead of letting this abuse continue to be the way gymnastics is done.

Coaches and gym owners that do this, you really need to reconsider your approach. You can have all kinds of opinions about us crazy gym parents, but Im looking to pay my money to a gym that cares about my child's whole person and that realizes the sacrifices my family makes to support our children. To think you have any right to tell me when I can see my minor child is a level of control that scares me that you'd be so presumptuous to assume you should have. I really think your gyms are going to feel the impact in the next few years if you dont reconsider.. maybe some of you elite level folks that are currently producing can keep doing it, but there are up and coming gyms that want to work in partnership with parents that will end up winning your elites if you dont start realizing that this is the old way. You may not like being being pushed but parental eyes to resort to innovative new coaching strategies not the old shame and break compliance but the old way is dying. Parents arent going to put up with this much longer, especially now that we realize how rampant the abuse has been.

All I know is it aint happening on my watch and if a gym doesnt consider me a partner with my child and only wants me to hand over money, I guess they can find some other suckers until they all run out, because they will.. the sport has to change or it will die. I went to the P&G this year, the seats are not filled and JO programs are closing for xcel left and right...

Innovate or die for all but the wealthiest.

 

[suds]

One of the many, important take-home points:
Being dismissive of someone / their concerns has disastrous consequences.

Varying degrees of culpability exist that led to the current darkness.
Anyone with an interest in gymnastics / children / athlete safety has power.
Listen more, learn more, believe more, and have the courage to insist on positive change .
A culture of safety requires this.

Do I have the courage to speak up, right now, in my part of the world? As I soul-search on this one, I realize: speaking up and insisting on specific changes that I believe would help, is nothing compared with what children / athletes have endured at the hands of abusers.
Ignoring symptoms = bearing responsibility.
It is easy to tell someone else to speak up.
The difficult question is, can I, right now, speak up and insist on specific changes?

Any situation that includes trivializing our children / our athletes and their concerns should be:
1. Recognized for what it is (dismissive) 2. Red-flagged 3. Changed.

Respect, personal dignity, safety, emotional and physical health of our children / athletes are the top priorities.
Note to USAG: This is not incompatible with high-performance athletes.
Quite the opposite.

Aly has spoken up. McKayla has spoken up. Over 140 women charging Larry Nassar have spoken up.
I see a sub-optimal system that has resulted in child abuse. Can I speak up?

I can.

I will.

 

[duyetanh]

Honestly, if you feel you cant talk to your child's coaches (not lets have tea, but a quick chat that doesnt interfere with coaching time if it is of importance), how can you expect your child to?
Eta: i am not one to watch the practices, makes me physically ill. But when a close member of the fam was having a surgery, i felt it was important to quickly let them know, as my kid was a hot mess, and practice had potential to be er, shall we say, interesting.

Again, not saying you need to talk every day. But if the window isnt ever opened just in case you needed to? I would find another gym.

 

[suds]

Honestly, if you feel you cant talk to your child's coaches ... how can you expect your child to? .... But if the window isnt ever opened just in case you needed to? I would find another gym.

Yes, I agree. I apologize for not being more clear.
(Let me try again).
The points:

1. The distinction: Instead of the mindset, “They” should do something about USAG, to realize that anyone with a USAG member in their family is “They”. It is us. We are the ones who should act. Some of the issues pointed out on Chalkbucket: harmful Eastern Bloc mindset, dismissive of both athletes and parents, expecting submission of gymnasts, focused on winning at any / all cost, near-complete isolation of the national training facility. Anyone uncomfortable with USAG’s current culture / policies / procedures / focus / logistics / etc. is in a position to make contact with USAG (repeatedly if necessary) and make known these concerns, and persistently (read: stubbornly) insist on change until it occurs. Not speaking up, i.e. ignoring symptoms, makes each of us complicit.

2. Each of us is uniquely situated. We each witness / hear about / read about different specific problems within USAG. We (the gymnastics community) are seasoned elite through new rec. families. Like the blind men and the elephant, we all see different pieces of the bigger picture. Some common themes, to be sure. If the part we see / hear about / read about does not embrace the philosophy of respect, personal dignity, emotional and physical health, and safety of the athlete: then we need to speak up. The high volume of child abuse (physical and emotional) that has occurred compels urgency.

3. One of the best ways to empower our children, is, as parents, to role model what empowerment looks like.
It is easy to tell someone else to speak up. The difficult question for each of us is, can I?

 

[CAKE]

It is easy to tell someone else to speak up. The difficult question for each of us is, can I?

Im sorry, but Im new to this whole community. Im a silicon valley innovator and we have no problems speaking up..LOL..

But does gymnastics allow anyone to speak up?

The gymnastics community feels worse than a dysfunctional family Christmas. Everyone is so scared of how it will effect them to be honest that the whole sport needs a revamp from rec to elite in the culture. This is a culture problem and the sport must stop grooming girls. It's kinda gross what is expected. Dont talk back, do what I say even if you are terrified. Usually coming from men. I am so mad that so many women had to be abused and stay silent to get to the olympics. That is disgusting. Abuse effects your entire life.

Im willing to support these girls that are coming forward that want this to stop. They have all paid enough price to the sport.

Some places to start

Require training of every employee at any USAG certified gym. Im aghast that training is not mandatory. All of this should be mandatory

• You must be Instructor Certified
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SafeSport training should be an absolute bare minimum of every instructor or coach and there needs to be a better national reporting system. An independent 3rd party must be created to act on the behalf of atheletes who will bulldoggedly pursue prosecution of any improprieties. This may exist or be part of what Aimee b is creating...

USAG runs all background checks on employees at member gyms so they dont have to worry that a gym doesnt self report. In the JO programs every coach participating should be certified and recorded so it should be no problem for the usag to run those checks at the minimum, yearly.

USAG starts doing random gym observations like a secret shopper. They dont know you are coming and if you catch them creating a culture that isnt what the USAG should be cultivating the clubs get penalized and removed from the JO program. It doesnt matter if they are even producing elites.. if they are doing it the wrong way, the USAG must put their foot down. The USAG must be the ones to do it, they must become a much larger organization and I get the staffing and growing pains that will create, but these are children we are talking about and it is beyond time.

Also, it's time for the heat to finally fall on the Karolyis. This dysfunction stems so much out of the culture they have insisted upon. Stop elevating a dysfunctional control freak to greatness because he used fear and intimidation. Close the ranch. It was the wrong way. The price was too high. We have to innovate and do it another way. Stop elevating coaches that use fear and intimidation to greatness so the next generation thinks that is the way to do it, its like passing abuse from generation to generation.

 

[skschlag]

I agree. things need a drastic overhaul. . The scary part is, just this weekend, I heard and/or saw the following things:

1. a parent talking about how the coach offered to drive her dd to a meet to cheer on her teammates.
2. a coach babysitting team kids so parents could go out.
3. a coach driving gymnasts to another gym for a practie
4. Parents dropping kids at private lessons.

It seems that some gyms are choosing to not pay attention to any of this and it is sad. Why are parents still allowing these things? When I said something about these things, the parents looked at me like I was being an overprotective, helicopter parent. And I cannot imagine as a coach putting myself in this situation.

And if I hear one more time..."but I trust her/his coach completely" I WILL scream. It is just so sad that we have to think this way, but as a parent, I woudl not want to put my gymnast in that position, OR the coach!

 

[CAKE]

Oh, so many people think Im a crazy gym parent because I wont just give my kid over to strangers. I could care less. I dont understand them either. I pray their family never has to handle the life long effects of abuse and that they never have to understand me. But the fact is that 1 in 5 women (and we know that is conservative) has been abused... why take the chance? I wouldnt drop my kid off for one on one private tutoring either.

Proper boundaries are healthy and exist to protect everyone.

I trust very few people completely. My mother trusted way too many people with me that she never should have. I learned very early on that adults are not guaranteed to protect you. But I was allowed to get away from the people to protect myself. I cannot imagine if my dreams would have been contingent upon letting people abuse me verbally, physically or sexually.

Until the culture is corrected and safeguards put in place, children are at risk. Unfortunately, it isnt enough for individual gyms to do it, it must come from the USGA. The USGA has to be less afraid of losing coaches who produce scores but break humans.

If they take a strong stand right now and strong correction, the sport can flourish.

If they sweep this under the rug, especially right now when #metoo and scandal after scandal has brought it to society's attention, this sport will continue to decline in numbers. Who in the world would sacrifice their children's psyche and childhood to a sport that will not even try to protect them? Barely anyone I know understands why we participate in it as is, the improper response to this scandal will just increase the declining numbers.

Sorry, Ill stop my repeated interjections, I just feel strongly that there is a need for change!

 

[bogwoppit]

US gymnastics is culturally broken. I have long been amazed at the lack of training required to coach. Also the lack of safety training and actual sense in coaching children. Nobody should ever want to be alone with a gymnast, it is crazy that it is even a thing.

USAG can easily look to other countries where governing bodies work much harder to qualify their coaches and to keep the gymnasts safe.

It does seem that, despite parents paying $1000's a year, they feel as though they cannot speak up for fear of reprisals. That alone is a bit twisted. Even in many "great" gym there is systemic, low level verbal abuse.

 

[skschlag]

US gymnastics is culturally broken. I have long been amazed at the lack of training required to coach. Also the lack of safety training and actual sense in coaching children. Nobody should ever want to be alone with a gymnast, it is crazy that it is even a thing.

USAG can easily look to other countries where governing bodies work much harder to qualify their coaches and to keep the gymnasts safe.

It does seem that, despite parents paying $1000's a year, they feel as though they cannot speak up for fear of reprisals. That alone is a bit twisted. Even in many "great" gym there is systemic, low level verbal abuse.

It is weird because in order to coach rec, D had to take safe sport, level 1 coaching and child abuse reporting. BUt I guess this isn't required all the time

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Having traveled to Asia frequently, it's rather common to do that in order to adjust to the time differences. I'd bet most of the people on the trip took them.

I'm not defending or justifying any of the other stuff, but there is a reasonable purpose for ambien or similar in that circumstance. It's hard enough to adjust well enough to stay awake in chairs in meetings; I can't imagine how high level athletes adjust well enough to compete.

OR maybe it was not a sleeping pill...but something else......

 

[bogwoppit]

It is weird because in order to coach rec, D had to take safe sport, level 1 coaching and child abuse reporting. BUt I guess this isn't required all the time

No, that will be your gym that requires it. Many coaches, even abusers, do not take certification. As long as they do not want to coach on the floor at a USAG sanctioned meet, they can get away with it. Remember there are more gym federations in the US than USAG a well.

 

[bogwoppit]

More than that gymnasts are still travelling alone to the ranch with their coaches. This needs to change. Camp needs to be in a more accessible flight hub, enabling kids to travel more safely and in groups, this would serve to protect the coaches too.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

So the bottom line is we need zero tolerance. To all of it. Coaches saying kids are fat, ignoring them, using punishments. Pushing them so hard with high hours, until they injure.

We need to believe kids when they say a coach is mean, or has said x or y. As parents we need to say this is not acceptable, and go find another club or sport.

What Tatiana says is particularly poignant. Those people knew and didn’t speak up. I have seen that so many times- not sexual, but physical and emotional. We need to teach our kids to tell if a team mate is being ignored, yelled at for no reason.

What is it about gymnastics and sport that makes people think they have to put up with this? We don’t. If our kids quit gymnastics that’s no big deal compared to being sexually, physically or emotionally abused for years.

hence...why i've suggested here that in some issues the child learns to put up those 2 Italian fingers....in front of everyone.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

It is weird because in order to coach rec, D had to take safe sport, level 1 coaching and child abuse reporting. BUt I guess this isn't required all the time

it is now required.

 

[skschlag]

it is now required.

THat is good. I hate hearing of coaches babysitting team members, driving them all around, taking them to meets. Just opens doors that should remain closed

 

[bogwoppit]

it is now required.

Is it required of every person who coaches in gym that competes USAG?

 

[Seeker]

Is it required of every person who coaches in gym that competes USAG?

And how is it monitored?

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

It is required here to take multiple exams to just ASSIST a coach. In the course leading up to the exams, you will learn about proper attire and behavoiur with parents and kids, technique and a bunch more. This does not happen all the time though, since the course is 14 and up and most assisting people are not 14 and up.

Yes, this is just for rec