gyms knowingly taking deductions.

[clrmom]

So, at my dd's practice after her second meet, her coach came out and talked to the parents. She said that she stayed for the second session of the meet and watched (it was another session of L2) and when speaking to someone (judge, I think) found out that our girls were getting deductions on certain elements due to the way our gym is having our girls do the elements. One deduction was at least a .3 deduction, on some of the others she didn't give exact numbers.

She explained that our HC has said we will continue doing some of the elements exactly as we are doing them and take the deduction because it will help them in the long run in the higher levels to learn the skill the way our girls are currently learning it.

Do other gyms do this? Do they deliberately teach a skill "their" way even if it means taking a deduction for ever girl on that skill? Are there skills at the lower levels that if taught to the expectation of that level can make it more difficult when at the higher levels? (for example: casting into an undershoot vs. not casting and going straight into the undershoot.)

I am curious to hear how normal this is and your thoughts on this practice.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

So, at my dd's practice after her second meet, her coach came out and talked to the parents. She said that she stayed for the second session of the meet and watched (it was another session of L2) and when speaking to someone (judge, I think) found out that our girls were getting deductions on certain elements due to the way our gym is having our girls do the elements. One deduction was at least a .3 deduction, on some of the others she didn't give exact numbers.

She explained that our HC has said we will continue doing some of the elements exactly as we are doing them and take the deduction because it will help them in the long run in the higher levels to learn the skill the way our girls are currently learning it.

Do other gyms do this? Do they deliberately teach a skill "their" way even if it means taking a deduction for ever girl on that skill? Are there skills at the lower levels that if taught to the expectation of that level can make it more difficult when at the higher levels? (for example: casting into an undershoot vs. not casting and going straight into the undershoot.)

I am curious to hear how normal this is and your thoughts on this practice.

Not all that unusual. There are many different ways to teach some skills, and the compulsory routines tend to play towards a very specific set of progressions. Coaches who prefer a different approach may not teach the specific technique that judges want to see at compulsories, because they've found another approach to be more effective.

 

[10.0]

I have no idea what other gyms may do or why. I do know the skills are designed to be able to build a solid foundation for higher level skills and I can't imagine why they would accept these deductions to teach things "their way" do you remember what specific skills they were? I know we don't teach a cast before an undershoot as they have to do that dismount in level 4 and do it straight out of a back hip circle, so teaching a cast first would actually be counter productive.

 

[Coacharella]

What were the skills that are being taught in a different eay?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I do know the skills are designed to be able to build a solid foundation for higher level skills and I can't imagine why they would accept these deductions to teach things "their way"

There are many equally solid routes to the higher-levels, and the compulsory routines play to a very specific route.

To give an example, let's look at level 4 vault. You can very easily get a high-scoring level 4 vault by putting the springboard way back from the mat, which causes a very stretched-out, floaty preflight. It looks fantastic and will generally score well at level 4 -- but a long, floaty preflight is of zero use to anybody hoping to train strong upper-level vaults. In order to train strong upper-level vaults, it's often more effective to have kids vault with the board close to the mat, even though it often causes them to score lower.

Casts on bars at compulsories score best if they are hollow right off the bar, yet I've found a cast starting with a heel drive (ie arch off the bar) to be MUCH more effective in training a cast handstand. I prefer to train casts starting in an arch, and as the gymnast develops the feel for it, I teach her to hollow as she hits the top. Yet again, the deductions at the lower levels are worth it once they reach the upper-levels.

And don't even get me started on level 3.

 

[clrmom]

What were the skills that are being taught in a different eay?

One was a cartwheel. Our gym faces forward to start (after a step kick). I guess the gymnast is supposed to turn sideways when they kick, into a lunge and do it from that position?

The other was the undershoot dismount on bars. Supposedly the judges are taking a .3 deduction because our girls are going straight into the undershoot without a cast. (some of our girls, stop after the bhc to get control and then undershoot, some go straight into the undershoot as they swing out of the bhc)

On beam, our girls are doing their tuck jump on beam and then, step lock, turn dismount (tuck jump). I guess they are supposed to just turn and dismount without the step lock.

There was one skill we received deductions for on floor that they did fix. (Tripod handstand to pike-I had mentioned this skill in another thread...gymnasts will now leave feet on floor as they move to pike)

Sorry so long! Thanks for the responses so far. I like hearing the different ideas as I can see both sides as well.

 

[Sunobo]

The other was the undershoot dismount on bars. Supposedly the judges are taking a .3 deduction because our girls are going straight into the undershoot without a cast. (some of our girls, stop after the bhc to get control and then undershoot, some go straight into the undershoot as they swing out of the bhc)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the level 2 dismount a straddle sole circle?

 

[10.0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the level 2 dismount a straddle sole circle?

It can be, I am guessing she competes AAU and it can either be an undershoot or a straddle sole with no deduction.

 

[BlairBob]

Dunno, I prefer to teach a side lunge X cartwheel first before a front lunge to cartwheel but many gyms skip side cartwheel and move straight to a lunge even on day 1.

To reiterate what one of the authors of the USAG compulsory program said...the compulsory program as it is designed IS NOT NECESSARILY a program for elite gymnastics. It's designed for everyone and can fit into an elite program...possibly.

 

[clrmom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the level 2 dismount a straddle sole circle?

In AAU you can do either. Our gym chooses to do the undershoot. You have to do the straddle sole circle in level 3.

 

[gymdog]

Dunno, I prefer to teach a side lunge X cartwheel first before a front lunge to cartwheel but many gyms skip side cartwheel and move straight to a lunge even on day 1.

To reiterate what one of the authors of the USAG compulsory program said...the compulsory program as it is designed IS NOT NECESSARILY a program for elite gymnastics. It's designed for everyone and can fit into an elite program...possibly.

I teach side cartwheel first too, however (this is just an observation, I couldn't say specifically obviously) it seems to me that many gyms that actually compete L2 or 3 have kids that to me are a level or two higher than those levels. I am guess if they do like 3 to 4 hours a week of practice they are well beyond side cartwheel and working ROs so I could see why they're doing forward cartwheels which is obviously farther along the progression. But I don't necessarily see a detriment in practicing and doing side cartwheels also at higher levels (helps the kids go straight and go over the top sometimes) so if I was going to have kids compete those levels, I suppose I'd just have them do the side cartwheel. That's not to say there's anything progressively wrong with doing the forward cartwheel.

Same issue on the connection with the dismount, if they are doing it correctly (big if since a lot of L5 and under have a lot of issues with the undershoot) then it is actually just higher on the progression scale, not "wrong". But unless they were doing it perfectly and if I chose to compete those levels I guess again I would just do it the way the routine says but because of those things I don't favor competing those levels...so I can see where they might come from.