WAG Height versus Form on Cast Handstand

[Clover]

I have a question for coaches and knowledgeable parents about cast to handstand. My DD has very nice form on her cast to handstand, but she doesn't get all the way up. At her TOPS testing earlier this Summer the judge actually complemented her on her beautiful casts. However, she didn't get full credit for each one (but did pretty well) because they were not all vertical. I have seen other girls get higher in their casts but they are very archy.

Which is better - nice form but need to work on getting higher or higher casts but need to work on form? Or, maybe it depends upon the girl???

I am NOT going to coach really just curious.

Thanks!

 

[Seeker]

Not a coach, but it seems that if she just keeps working at it, the height will come. Archy casts make my back hurt just watching them!

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

Not a coach, but I remember hearing cast height is measured by the form-- so arched back and protruding belly but "appears" to be a higher cast than a good form cast may not be any higher, or may even be less high- I think it's measured by shoulder angle and lowest part of the body to the ground. Does that make sense? Maybe a coach can come on here and explain it more eloquently and/or correct me if I am wrong.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

Found this on a quick Google search from 2012 TOPS testing, but I am sure it's them same or similar now:

"Only the properly executed cast are counted
A fall is defined as:
 casting over the bar,
 falling forward while returning to the bar
 performing a back hip circle while
returning to the bar.
If an athlete completes a properly executed cast and
then falls, the cast will receive ½ credit on the
casting angle attained with the proper body shape
A properly executed cast handstand has:
 Legs straight throughout the cast,
 Arms straight once the hips leave the bar,
 To receive credit, the athlete MUST
maintain a straight body position from the
time their hips leave the bar to the time the
hips return to the bar. This is HIGHEST
PRIORITY! Any arching or piking of the
body on the way up or the way down will
result in a zero score for that attempt"

Good form is most important-- a cast to handstand with good form is what they are looking for. Floppy/archy high casts don't count. HTH!!!

 

[gymgal]

Are you asking for TOPS specifically or competition as well? In competition, the girl w/ a hs will get credit, then deduction for form. The girl w/o hs will get an angle deduction.

I think in general, coaches like to see good form because they know the rest will come with time.

 

[iwannacoach]

I'd rather see good form, and then work on the cast because it seem that form is harder for many kids to correct.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

orientation. old school. they first must learn "ugly ups" and "ugly ups and over" to understand "handstand". THEN the form will come.

they can't get up cause they're not strong enough. good form is great...but if the child does not understand what they have to do, where they have to go and the end result for a handstand then all the good form in the world won't get them there.

 

[Natasha]

orientation. old school. they first must learn "ugly ups" and "ugly ups and over" to understand "handstand". THEN the form will come.

they can't get up cause they're not strong enough. good form is great...but if the child does not understand what they have to do, where they have to go and the end result for a handstand then all the good form in the world won't get them there.

Dunno, how long would you see this "ugly ups" stage to last? Are you talking just to get the feel of it and then clean them up? My dd was allowed to do "ugly up" Cast Handstands all through competition season. The thing is, she had nice casts up to about 20-30 degrees of vertical at the beginning of comp season.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you can't predict the how long part since all of this is a process. but once they can get up and over then you work technique and form in conjunction with getting up there.

 

[Clover]

Thanks all. This was a general question, not just TOPS. TOPS is just what brought it to the front of my mind.

It sounds like there are two different ways to do this depending upon your coaching style. You either concentrate on form first or height first. Obviously, my DD and her coach are trying for form first. She now needs to work on height.

I do find what Dunno says quite interesting. There must definitely be a need to get "a feel" for the cast handstand. DD thinks she is getting all the way to vertical when in fact she isn't quite there. I guess if she could get up there even with an arch she would at least know what it felt like to be vertical, but I'll just leave the how part to the coach and wait for it to happen.

Thanks again. Interesting info from everyone!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

And my approach is the opposite, clean, clean, clean always trumps ugly.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

A cast is, in my opinion, one of those extremely rare skills where kids should try to get the feel for it first, and then worry about cleanup.

Here's why:

A cast is mechanically an extremely simple skill. The only real technical/mechanical challenge is getting the shoulders in the right position to maintain balance on top of the bar, and that's something kids just have to get a feel for by doing it.

Once a gymnast understands how to balance using the shoulders, then it's simply a matter of developing greater and greater strength. As the gymnast becomes stronger, she will be able to do it with a more extended body, and will therefore naturally start doing it more cleanly.

I honestly PREFER to start by teaching casts in an arch. A tight arch with legs tight together, yes, but an arch nonetheless. Once the gymnast can consistently do an arched cast all the way over top, then she can start hollowing at the top for control. As she gets stronger, this hollow will happen earlier and earlier.

EDIT: This assumes we're talking about a straight-body cast. Things get a little more nuanced when we start talking about straddle casts -- on those, I would emphasize form and technique right from the start.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

And my approach is the opposite, clean, clean, clean always trumps ugly.

well of course it does. but that's not the same as learning the cast handstand. in the history of the sport, both mens and womens, and i've seen A LOT of gymnastics, kids can't learn a handstand with perfect form from the beginning to the end. even the russian and chinese videos of small children show them doing "ugly ups". and over and over again they go. and a couple of years later, those same kids reach the elite level with PERFECT handstands. it's just how it is.

so, well...never mind.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

well of course it does. but that's not the same as learning the cast handstand. in the history of the sport, both mens and womens, and i've seen A LOT of gymnastics, kids can't learn a handstand with perfect form from the beginning to the end. even the russian and chinese videos of small children show them doing "ugly ups". and over and over again they go. and a couple of years later, those same kids reach the elite level with PERFECT handstands. it's just how it is.

so, well...never mind.

==
Don't you think that an elite kid is more capable of making adjustments later as opposed to a college track kid? I have seen kids learn crappy casts from the beginning and well... it pretty much limited them on bars for life. I have also seen kids learn perfect casts from the beginning in a relatively short time frame. An additional problem with teaching an arch cast from the beginning is you will get your clock cleaned in compulsories around these parts. So clean is our philosophy, unless they need it for testing and just don't have it. At that point, arch away but no bent arms. I have a few dozen straights on my team, but we compete straddle because they just score higher.

 

[Hayleigh]

I had a similar problem when I first learned to cast to handstand. I had good form but wasn't quite in handstand but I scored higher in competitions with this than a teammate that had bad form but reached handstand. Obviously I'm not a coach but from my experience you're better off with good form but taking your time to get enough height.

 

[Hayleigh]

What dunno said about ugly ups and over is similar to my coaches opinion but if we have good form she spots the handstand and pushes us over so we get used to where we should go and the feeling of falling so we don't panic.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

this is circular logic. the kids must start somewhere. we have kids as young as 6 years old doing cast handstands. some look good...some not so good. but they're doing them and lots of them to boot. i couldn't tell you if any of those kids will be elites at the age they are now. and i have coached my share. i guess i'm just not smart enough.

==
Don't you think that an elite kid is more capable of making adjustments later as opposed to a college track kid? I have seen kids learn crappy casts from the beginning and well... it pretty much limited them on bars for life. I have also seen kids learn perfect casts from the beginning in a relatively short time frame. An additional problem with teaching an arch cast from the beginning is you will get your clock cleaned in compulsories around these parts. So clean is our philosophy, unless they need it for testing and just don't have it. At that point, arch away but no bent arms. I have a few dozen straights on my team, but we compete straddle because they just score higher.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I feel like a broken record, as I know I've said this many times, but:

SWING HANDSTANDS ON P-BARS. Best drill in the world for training a strong straight body cast handstand.

 

[iwannacoach]

I feel like a broken record, as I know I've said this many times, but:

SWING HANDSTANDS ON P-BARS. Best drill in the world for training a strong straight body cast handstand.

^^^^darn skippy that^^^^

Just make sure each kid really understands how to do them safely befor having them work this as a drill with out spot. I don't know all the particulars of this example because it happened to a kid one of my friends was coaching, but this girl decided to swing a few handstands after working dips for conditioning. Something went wrong and she ended up breaking both thumbs...... now that's *gotta* hurt.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Yes, they should definitely be spotted and safely progressed to.