How do you choose which vault to train?

[BarCoach]

I have one gymnast who has a nice pike tsuk, but she recently started working front fronts. They are ok, not great. But what is the point of switching? I'm wondering how you go about choosing a vault to train? What criteria is used?

Also, I wanted to post this in the coaches forum, but the site wouldn't let me. Anyone know why?

 

[CoachTodd]

I think there are a lot of factors involved.
How likely is the gymnast to twist the tsuk for the upper levels?
Is the start value difference better than any deductions they may be getting with the higher value vault.
How good are they at front twisting?

I also try to keep in mind that having 2 different entry vaults is always a plus if they're looking at going to higher levels or college with this.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have one gymnast who has a nice pike tsuk, but she recently started working front fronts. They are ok, not great. But what is the point of switching? I'm wondering how you go about choosing a vault to train? What criteria is used?

There are a number of criteria I would use to determine this.

Gymnast who have lots of power but do not naturally have strong technique tend to do well with a handspring entry.

Gymnasts who naturally have very strong technique and confidence in their back tumbling tend to do well with a yurchenko entry.

And for gymnasts who don't quite fit into either category, there's tsuks.

Different coaches approach it differently; this is just how I look at it.

Also, I wanted to post this in the coaches forum, but the site wouldn't let me. Anyone know why?

You have to join the coach usergroup in order to post in the coaching forum.

 

[gymch34]

I do lots of drills for both tsuk & yurchenko entry vaults, starting very young (L5 or so.) We have everyone work all the same drills and then start steering them in one direction or another at L7. I definitely only choose kids that have a nice straight roundoff bhs to do yurchenkos! You need to ahve apretty powerful kid to do front fronts-Im actually the pickiest about who does that vault.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I tend to view Tsuk/Kaz type vaults as the default; that is, unless something about a kid really jumps out at me that would define them as either a Yurchenko kid or a Handspring Front kid, I tend towards a Tsuk or Kaz.

That said, I like to have all my boys do some amount of work on all three entries, just in case one of them manages to defy my predictions (which is not all unusual).

 

[BarCoach]

So, if she has been doing nice pike tsuks, there isn't much reason to switch her vault? I don't see why she should be able to get at least a layout tsuk in the two years she has left before graduation.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

For girls, a handspring front is worth more, so if she can do it, great.

But if the pike tsuk looks good, you might as well stick with it in my opinion.

This is assuming there aren't any other issues getting in the way. For example, there is one girl at my gym who used to compete a piked tsuk, and it was absolutely stunning -- but she was terrified of it. For reasons I don't begin to understand, she's more comfortable with handspring fronts (and her handspring front is equally stunning), so that's her vault now.

Out of curiosity, which way does the gymnast in question twist? If she's a kaz-type twister (ie left handed roundoff, left twist or right-handed roundoff, right twist), I might experiment with a tucked Kaz; in my opinion a tucked Kaz is much easier both to do and to teach than a layout tsuk.

 

[BarCoach]

Yes, she does a right round-off, and twists right. But right now she's only a first year level 9. I like the idea of training a Kaz. I don't know how to coach it, but I guess I'll just have to learn.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I can give you the basic idea of how I coach it, though it flies in the face of what many girl's coaches are accustomed to teaching (and what most women's judges are used to seeing).

The short version is that I would teach a Kaz as a tinsica followed by a front 1/2.

If you want the long version, let me know.

Sometime I'm going to put together a video explaining all the nuances of the kaz -- it's one of my favorite vaults both to do and to teach. However, I can't vault due to injury at the moment and I don't currently have any athletes competing a Kaz (though I have one who may well be by the end of this season), so I have nobody to video at the moment. Perhaps this will be one of my projects over the summer.

 

[BarCoach]

Interesting. I would love the long version. Thanks. When you have the time.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Interesting. I would love the long version. Thanks. When you have the time.

YES! I was hoping you'd say that! (I don't know why I derive such pleasure from discussing the nuances of the differences in training and execution of Tsukahara and Kazamatsu vaults, but I really and truly do)

ANYWAY

First thing you need to understand: a left-footed roundoff is not twisting to the left; it's twisting to the right. For a further explanation, check out this video. The rest of this explanation will make zero sense until you have internalized this oft-misunderstood fact.

The Kazamatsu is a 1/4 on followed by a salto with a 3/4 turn in the opposite direction. It is scored the same as a tsuk 1/1, and to the untrained eye looks like the same skill, but it is actually completely different (and, in my opinion, MUCH easier to train).

So what's the best way to train it? It depends on who you ask. My preference is to train it as a tinsica followed by a front 1/2.

For the sake of this example, we'll assume a gymnast who does a right-handed roundoff and twists to the right.

First and most obviously, the gymnast should have strong front handspring and roundoff vaults. They should be capable of, at the very least, doing a tsuk or a handspring front into a pit with a strong block. The gymnast should also be comfortable doing a front 1/2 (NOT a roundoff in the air, but a front 1/2 -- very important that this twists the same direction as all her other twisting skills) into a pit, and spotting the landing. If she can land it on a mat or on floor, so much the better.

At this point, I would have the gymnast work a tinsica on floor. The gymnast should start just like a roundoff, but rather than completing the twist to the left to finish facing the way she came from (as she would for a normal roundoff), she switches directions when her hands contact the floor, and turns back to the right to finish facing the same direction she was when she started. This twist is accomplished with a strong push behind the head with the left arm, and the gymnast should land with the left arm still up (the right arm will generally be somewhat out to the side on the landing). The head should be up, similar to the landing on a front handspring.
This skill may seem awkward on floor, but bear with it; it works spectacularly on vault.

Next, I would have the gymnast do a tinsica on vault (ie 1/4 on, 1/4 off to land facing away from the table) to land on mats stacked to around table height (the higher the better). As on floor, she should land with the left arm still pushing up and back, the head up, and the right arm out to the side. It is very important that the gymnast keep the left shoulder fully extended for a powerful block off the left arm.
The great thing about this is that once you get this technique down, you can get some MASSIVE block this way -- it seems like many gymnasts can get significantly more pop on this sort of vault than they can on a roundoff or front handspring vault.

For the next step, there are two drills that ideally should be worked in parallel. First and most importantly, the gymnast should work the aforementioned tinsica vault followed by a front tuck. For this, I tell my gymnasts to think about squaring it up like they're going to do a front layout before they pull the tuck. One correction I was given on my own Kaz-entry vault (by Slava Boiko, assistant men's coach at Penn State) which I've found particularly useful is to think about driving the heels down and hips up as the gymnast comes off the table.
The second drill I would have the gymnast work on is a double front 1/2 out. This is the less important of the two, but is generally helpful for building the gymnast's confidence and aerial awareness.

Finally, put the two together. Tinsica in, spot the ground, front 1/2 out. And there's your kaz.
The most common error in this step is doing the final 1/2 too early. The gymnast should be sure to spot the ground before initiating the front 1/2, and should maintain visual contact with the landing for the rest of the skill.
Done properly, it is actually much easier and less scary than a regular tsuk in my opinion, as it allows the gymnast to spot the landing almost immediately after leaving the table, and she can maintain visual contact with the ground for almost the entire postflight.

 

[gymch34]

First off, I know NOTHING about men's gymnastics- but I think a kaz is a vault for men. Am I correct? I know its not on the women's vault chart- is there but with a different name? I'm thinking its in the tsuk family?

MOST tsukers in womens gymnastics are weaker vaulters-you definitely see the better higher level kids doing yurchenkos or front fronts. One rarely sees a good full twisting layout tsuk at Level 10. If you think your athlete will get there, or wants to do college gym, I would stick to the front front or the yurchenko.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

First off, I know NOTHING about men's gymnastics- but I think a kaz is a vault for men. Am I correct? I know its not on the women's vault chart- is there but with a different name? I'm thinking its in the tsuk family?

Yes and no. It is not referred to as a Kazamatsu, but I'm 99% sure it is in the women's code. I'll check later today and give you the exact page number.

The reason the Kaz is not seen as commonly on the women's side is that women used to vault side horse and men used to vault long horse; this meant that for women, a 1/4 on simply was not an option until the development of the vault table, whereas for men, it's how we've always vaulted. The result is that most women's coaches are accustomed to teaching these sorts of vaults as a 1/2 on, while men's coaches are accustomed to teaching them as a 1/4 on.

The idea that a tsuk can be a 1/4 on 1/4 off is relatively new to the women's side of the sport (though the current code specifically describes tsuk-family vaults as having a "1/4 to 1/2 turn" in the preflight)

MOST tsukers in womens gymnastics are weaker vaulters-you definitely see the better higher level kids doing yurchenkos or front fronts. One rarely sees a good full twisting layout tsuk at Level 10.

This is currently true, but I don't think it's a necessity; again, I think it's a lingering effect of the days when vaults were done over a horse rather than a table.

 

[CoachTodd]

First off,

MOST tsukers in womens gymnastics are weaker vaulters-you definitely see the better higher level kids doing yurchenkos or front fronts. One rarely sees a good full twisting layout tsuk at Level 10. If you think your athlete will get there, or wants to do college gym, I would stick to the front front or the yurchenko.

I would have to disagree slightly with the above statement. I'd say the more powerful vaulters would be doing the tsuks instead of the yurchenkos. The round off entry gives the gymnast a lot more pop that a regular entry.
I will agree that once these more powerful vaulters get to level 9 or 10, they may opt to start front fronts since they are a higher value vault.
I guess the question comes in : Would you rather 1/2 a front pike or full a back layout in this case? Depending on the vaulter a valid argument could be made for either.

 

[BarCoach]

Hmmm, very interesting. Sounds like an easy way to teach it. But right now she does her tsuk with close to a 1/2 on. Do I go back and train the 1/4 on first or should I begin the progressions from the 1/2 on?

Gymch34, you're right. I was at a big meet this past weekend, and watched a ton of vault. I would say 95% were yurchenko layouts or fulls, 4% were front-fronts, and I only saw one girl do a tsuk full(or Kaz- I'm not sure which).

She does have a decent front-front into the pit. But again, I'm not sure how to coach it. I do better with tsuks and yurchenkos. But I guess I shouldn't keep her away from it because of my coaching limitations. I'll just have to learn. If a gymnast already has a decent tsuk, i the yurchenko an easier progression than a front front because they already know how to flip backward off the table?

Geoffrey, Thanks so much for that explanation. Do you see anything wrong with training both the Kaz and the front front and just continuing with the one that seems most promising? What about the yurchenko? If you feel like giving me a similar lesson for front fronts like the one you gave for the Kaz I would be indebted to you forever .

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Hmmm, very interesting. Sounds like an easy way to teach it. But right now she does her tsuk with close to a 1/2 on. Do I go back and train the 1/4 on first or should I begin the progressions from the 1/2 on?

Experiment and see what works. I would first play around with the skill without changing the entry -- there's a good chance it will fall into place on it's own, I suspect.

Geoffrey, Thanks so much for that explanation. Do you see anything wrong with training both the Kaz and the front front and just continuing with the one that seems most promising?

No problem with that at all -- in fact it's exactly what I would do.

What about the yurchenko?

First off, let me give the disclaimer that I have less experience with yurchenkos than I do with other vaults. I currently do not have anybody competing one (though a couple of my boys are training them and one will likely be ready to compete it next season).

The way I see it, a yurchenko is a great vault for kids who are cut out for it, but many kids simply are not yurchenko kids. It's also a very high-maintenance vault, if that makes sense, simply because there's a lot that can go wrong with it and a lot more adjustments that will have to be made as the kid gets taller (whereas with a tsuk or handspring front, you can pretty much just bump the table up a notch and chuck the skill straight away). However, as I said, it's a great vault for kids who are naturally cut out for it, and it does cater more to the strengths that girls seem to have over guys (ie guys tend to be more powerful and therefor better suited to handspring fronts and tsuks, whereas girls tend to be more flexible in the shoulders and more precise in their technique, making them better suited to yurchenkos). As I said, it depends on the kid.

If you feel like giving me a similar lesson for front fronts like the one you gave for the Kaz I would be indebted to you forever .

I'll see what I can do when I have a bit more time to sit down and tackle it, though I suspect I won't have as much to say on handspring fronts just because they are far less technically complex, and there isn't much going on in one that you can't see from simply watching the vault.

 

[BarCoach]

I'll see what I can do when I have a bit more time to sit down and tackle it, though I suspect I won't have as much to say on handspring fronts just because they are far less technically complex, and there isn't much going on in one that you can't see from simply watching the vault.

I'm actually really glad you said that. There is usually something I can find to correct every time she does the front front right now. What I'm worried about more is making it a pike or a half out later on. But I guess I can tackle that when I come to it.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Been meaning to get back to this thread.

Regarding a kaz on the women's side: I keep forgetting to look it up in the women's code, but hopefully I'll remember when I go in tomorrow.

Regarding handspring fronts:
There really is very little to say about them that you can't see just by watching, but here are a few slightly more subtle tricks that I've found usefull:

1) Board distance. The closer you can get the board without compromising preflight position, the better. Many of the best and most powerful handspring front vaulters in the country use the board 2 feet from the table or closer. (this holds true for any vault, actually -- shorter, faster preflight = higher postflight.

2) Focus on snapping the heels DOWN and hips up on the block. While somewhat counterintuitive, thinking about driving the heels DOWN forces the gymnast to delay the tuck until she's completely finished the block and her hands have left the table.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

about the kaz historically. all we did in the 70's and 80's was hand fronts and kaz's. very seldom that you saw a true tsk full.

how do you tell? watch from the side. left round on, left twist off. if you are standing to the gymnast's right side, you will see stomach on stomach off.

reverse it for right round off. and you watch from right side. you see back on back off.

as you all might know, a left round off is a right twist. therefore, if the gymnast performs a left round off [and from the gymnast's right side you will see stomach on] they will then twist right off. you will then see the gymnast's back coming off.

and it doesn't matter if it was the old horse or the table. a kaz is a kaz and a full a full.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Ok, after checking the USAG women's code.... I'm really not sure how a Kaz would be recognized or scored.

The code describes the tsuk element group as having 1/4 to 1/2 twist in preflight.

It does not appear to recognize the kaz as a separate vault, HOWEVER, the drawing they have of a tsuk 1/1 (vault 3.302) is left-handed entry to left twist.

Vaults 3.306, 3.307, and 3.407 are definitely kaz entry vaults -- in fact, they're tucked, piked, and laid-out variations of the kaz drill I talked about earlier (tinisica to front salto).

It would seem logical to me that if they allow the 1/4-1/4 front, it would make sense to also recognize it with a 1/2 out, but it appears not to have been given its own identification number.

In short, after looking at the code I have no earthly idea how a kaz would be scored on the women's side. It would probably be a good idea to find a women's judge who understands the difference between a tsuk 1/1 and a kaz and ask them how a kaz would be scored.

However, the kaz entry to front salto IS recognized as it's own vault, and has a 10 start value laid out.