How do you choose which vault to train?

[Deleted member D3987]

trust me geoff, the women judges wouldn't know a kaz from a full. that's why they don't distinguish in this code. back in the day, they did. and that generation coudn't tell the difference either.

 

[gymkat]

trust me geoff, the women judges wouldn't know a kaz from a full. that's why they don't distinguish in this code. back in the day, they did. and that generation coudn't tell the difference either.

I can tell a Kaz from a tsuk 1/1.

Sincerely,
One of your resident judges who briefly worked a Kaz-style vault 6 years ago

 

[CoachTodd]

trust me geoff, the women judges wouldn't know a kaz from a full. that's why they don't distinguish in this code. back in the day, they did. and that generation coudn't tell the difference either.

Sure they would. You have to tell them what vault the kid is doing before they vault

 

[gymch34]

I do not believe the kaz is distinguished in the womens code. I would not know the differece , and I am a very experienced coach & judge. The kaz is a mens vault. Since the tsuk full is listed in the womens code, I would expect to see a tsuk full (which in my understanding is different from a kaz). If you called a kaz, I would look for it in the code, not be able to find it listed under the name kaz, i would try to score the vault based on what I see, but you are opening your female gymnast up to a lot of issues!
Why not just teach your female gymnasts vaults listed in the female code of points? Leave no room for interpretation, or wonder on the part of the judges. Womens gymnastics is different than mens, and if the guys want to come and coach womens, they need to coach it differently. I would expect to coach the mens side very differently than I do womens.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I do not believe the kaz is distinguished in the womens code. I would not know the differece , and I am a very experienced coach & judge. The kaz is a mens vault. Since the tsuk full is listed in the womens code, I would expect to see a tsuk full (which in my understanding is different from a kaz). If you called a kaz, I would look for it in the code, not be able to find it listed under the name kaz, i would try to score the vault based on what I see, but you are opening your female gymnast up to a lot of issues!
Why not just teach your female gymnasts vaults listed in the female code of points? Leave no room for interpretation, or wonder on the part of the judges. Womens gymnastics is different than mens, and if the guys want to come and coach womens, they need to coach it differently. I would expect to coach the mens side very differently than I do womens.

It seems to me to make very little sense that it is not recognized as it's own vault, since they recognize the kaz minus a half twist. It seems like an odd idiosyncrasy.

EDIT: Also, the "tsuk 1/1" in the code is actually illustrated as a kaz, albeit not with the kaz-technique that I've described here.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I do not believe the kaz is distinguished in the womens code. I would not know the differece , and I am a very experienced coach & judge. The kaz is a mens vault. Since the tsuk full is listed in the womens code, I would expect to see a tsuk full (which in my understanding is different from a kaz). If you called a kaz, I would look for it in the code, not be able to find it listed under the name kaz, i would try to score the vault based on what I see, but you are opening your female gymnast up to a lot of issues!
Why not just teach your female gymnasts vaults listed in the female code of points? Leave no room for interpretation, or wonder on the part of the judges. Womens gymnastics is different than mens, and if the guys want to come and coach womens, they need to coach it differently. I would expect to coach the mens side very differently than I do womens.

this is what i mean. it's ALL gymnastics. men or women, makes no difference. a kaz is a kaz, and a full a full. full is more difficult. kaz just a bit easier.

in men's, they just judge what they see. in women, you put up a number, and in alot of cases, they commiserate as to what the other 'thinks' they saw.

a regular grip giant swing is called a front giant on men's high bar. a regular grip giant swing is called a back giant on women's uneven bars. stupid! men did giant swings first. and both swing the same direction. but the women's side had to screw that up too!

 

[gymch34]

Its all gymnastics but MANY if not all the differences between men's and women's gymnastics are due to different equipment! Different equipment means different gymnastics- yes, men did a giant first, but be realistic, was a giant even possible when the bars were so close we could stand on one bar and hold the high bar to do a scale?

I also believe the difference in mens & womens vaulting came form when there was long horse for men. History teaches us many lessons.

I'm not even going to go into anatomy..... but they are differences. I hope the OP got some good info from his origional question before everyone started thumping their chests and showing us how intelligent they are.

Dunno, it it really stupid that then womens side calls something a different name, or just stupid accoring to you?? Is everyone that doesnt think the same way as you stupid? I found your post quite offensive to womens gymnastics, coaches & judges.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Let's all take a step back here. No need for drama.

Going through the women's code again, I'm 99% sure that a Kaz would be fine, and would be recognized as a tsuk 1/1. The women's code specifically defines tsuk entry vaults as "1/4 to 1/2" turn on preflight, and the illustration of a "tsuk 1/1" is actually a kaz, albeit one with a very dramatic preflight turn.

Right now, Vault is the only event that is literally exactly the same for men and women. The two sides may have taken different routes to arrive where they are now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still the same event.

No point in arguing who did what first.

 

[grizzoline]

I guess, in a way, the issue is that often its a matter of which direction to twist. In a Kaz, you twist back. Even in the days of the old horse many women did a Kaz-style tsuk full. But it wasn't much of a difference really, because, with the horse, you pretty much had to do a true half on. Once it got changed to a 1/4 on, a Kaz is obviously easier, because there is less twisting to do. Sometimes it annoys me, when you can hardly tell, say a front half and a kaz apart. But basically, a true tsuk was always rare - because it forced you to either twist against your natural direction or do your entry the opposite way (except of course you are one of the few people that don't work like most of us do). Now it's just much more apparent and actually a significant change in difficulty.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Its all gymnastics but MANY if not all the differences between men's and women's gymnastics are due to different equipment! Different equipment means different gymnastics- yes, men did a giant first, but be realistic, was a giant even possible when the bars were so close we could stand on one bar and hold the high bar to do a scale?

I also believe the difference in mens & womens vaulting came form when there was long horse for men. History teaches us many lessons.

I'm not even going to go into anatomy..... but they are differences. I hope the OP got some good info from his origional question before everyone started thumping their chests and showing us how intelligent they are.

Dunno, it it really stupid that then womens side calls something a different name, or just stupid accoring to you?? Is everyone that doesnt think the same way as you stupid? I found your post quite offensive to womens gymnastics, coaches & judges.

i regret you misunderstood my tongue and cheek humor. i coach both boys and girls. i teach them gymnastics. not boys or girls. gymnastics. and the long horse had nothing to do with it. as i said, a kaz was/is a kaz and a full was/is a full. all that changed is the apparatus.

and it's not about intelligence. i regret the misunderstanding.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I guess, in a way, the issue is that often its a matter of which direction to twist. In a Kaz, you twist back. Even in the days of the old horse many women did a Kaz-style tsuk full. But it wasn't much of a difference really, because, with the horse, you pretty much had to do a true half on. Once it got changed to a 1/4 on, a Kaz is obviously easier, because there is less twisting to do. Sometimes it annoys me, when you can hardly tell, say a front half and a kaz apart. But basically, a true tsuk was always rare - because it forced you to either twist against your natural direction or do your entry the opposite way (except of course you are one of the few people that don't work like most of us do). Now it's just much more apparent and actually a significant change in difficulty.

that's about it.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

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Here's a video in which Mas Watanabe describes the progression he uses to teach a Kazamatsu (and yes, this is definitely kazamatsu technique, which is COMPLETELY different from tsuk 1/1 technique)

Oddly enough, he calls it a tsuk 1/1, despite the fact that in one of his gym smarts DVDs he very clearly draws the distinction between the two.