Parents Judging harder in some states or regions?

[LizzieLac]

Region 6 here. We go to meets in 4 of the 7 states in out region and I notice almost no difference in scoring aside from a random event here and there and the difference is small. I never see the big 1-2 AA score differences. We go to a couple of meets that are notorious for being high scoring but that is understood by every gym that attends.

Even at regionals, I have not really noticed tougher scoring.

We go to at least one meet out of our region every year and I haven't heard much buzz from our girls or parents about those meets either. We have that meet coming up this weekend, so i will pay close attention.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

We have decent gyms (including an elite gym with a former world team member) in our state and almost never see 38s. I am told it is a tough scoring state, and we have done two out of state meets recently. DD got her two best all around scores with really no better and some times worse routine at these meets, so there does seem to be some truth to it. We rarely see scores on most events above 9.5, though they do happen.

 

[Flicfliclay]

We are in Region 8 so not the same area but when my dd did Xcel it seemed scoring was within range in other state, a few tenths give or take in the overall score. At regionals last year in TN she got her lowest AA score of the season for well polished routines and it was about 8 tenths down from what she was getting. That was the biggest discrepancy we had seen until this year...
Dd started L6 and has competed 4 different states so far (including our own but all within region 8) and WOW...the scores are the biggest fluctuations I have ever seen. She has fluctuated up and down as much as two entire points in her AA score from state to state for similarly executed routines. It's not just her but her teammates as well. I can honestly say when we go into a meet now I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what to expect (and I used to be pretty good at predicting a score within a half point or so, but not anymore. They could pull her scores out of a hat and it would make about as much sense to me at this point. LOL!

That is insane to me!I just can't see scores being THAT different! It is so hard for the girls to be able to "learn" from their mistakes if they are doing basically the same routine and getting scores over a point lower? I guess there is not a thing we can do about it, but it just doesn't seem right!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

for similarly executed routines.
!

What looks similar to us, parents, in the stands are not similar to the judges.

As you go up in levels, there is less wiggle room for skills. A leap in level 4 needs a 120 angle for full credit, in 5 it's 150, after that it's 180. So what we see from the stands looks like the same angle but how off will impact the deductions.

Form from our viewing point can look fine, but we might not be able to see if they are hollow/arched or the degree.

And as the degree of not meeting the skill gets worse so does the loss of points.

I think it's a higher level and widening range for deduction thing. Less of a meet to meet, state to state thing.

 

[twinmomma]

What looks similar to us, parents, in the stands are not similar to the judges.

As you go up in levels, there is less wiggle room for skills. A leap in level 4 needs a 120 angle for full credit, in 5 it's 150, after that it's 180. So what we see from the stands looks like the same angle but how off will impact the deductions.

Form from our viewing point can look fine, but we might not be able to see if they are hollow/arched or the degree.

And as the degree of not meeting the skill gets worse so does the loss of points.

I think it's a higher level and widening range for deduction thing. Less of a meet to meet, state to state thing.

While you're correct, an individual child will not have an over 1 point swing in her routine barring any major errors. My daughter's beam routine didn't somehow become magically amazing the week we went to Reno. And as a former dance judge, I also have a sense of what it is that gets deductions and what doesn't. Sure the angle of view may be different, but I can tell you that differences in judging happens based on location. Maybe not in every region. But it happens.

 

[Flicfliclay]

What looks similar to us, parents, in the stands are not similar to the judges.

As you go up in levels, there is less wiggle room for skills. A leap in level 4 needs a 120 angle for full credit, in 5 it's 150, after that it's 180. So what we see from the stands looks like the same angle but how off will impact the deductions.

Form from our viewing point can look fine, but we might not be able to see if they are hollow/arched or the degree.

And as the degree of not meeting the skill gets worse so does the loss of points.

I think it's a higher level and widening range for deduction thing. Less of a meet to meet, state to state thing.

I agree that parents can't see certain things as the judges do, I'm very aware of the differences in degrees and angles too. We have two judges in our gym, so they can go over a video and view what the judges take off for. I can for sure say that it's also true that some judges are real sticklers while others may let small discretions go! I find it very hard to believe that in cases like 2.0 points differense a set of judges missed that much! Again, I was just kinda wondering if judging varied much from state to state and apparently it does

 

[cadybearsmommy]

Oh I get that there are variations for sure. But I do think judges vary some as well. They all have their preferences and they are only human. For instance at the meet where dd got her highest score, I felt they were being generous across the board. Most girls were doing similar routines to my dd. Nobody really competing higher skills.

The out of state meet that judged the lowest we were up against much tougher competition. Girls doing giants, connected series on beam, etc, a lot of gyms competing L7 skills on all apparatus in L6. Those were the ones that got the big scores and girls doing the L6 minimums like my dd scored low across the board. Everyone on our team dropped about two points in AA at that meet. Now I'm sure the girls doing the higher L7 skills deserves their scores bc obviously they were good but it was just odd, you had girls in the 36-37 range and then girls in the 33 range and not a whole lot in the middle. It was just the first time I had seen that and it struck me as odd.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Oh I get that there are variations for sure. But I do think judges vary some as well. They all have their preferences and they are only human. For instance at the meet where dd got her highest score, I felt they were being generous across the board. Most girls were doing similar routines to my dd. Nobody really competing higher skills.

The out of state meet that judged the lowest we were up against much tougher competition. Girls doing giants, connected series on beam, etc, a lot of gyms competing L7 skills on all apparatus in L6. Those were the ones that got the big scores and girls doing the L6 minimums like my dd scored low across the board. Everyone on our team dropped about two points in AA at that meet. Now I'm sure the girls doing the higher L7 skills deserves their scores bc obviously they were good but it was just odd, you had girls in the 36-37 range and then girls in the 33 range and not a whole lot in the middle. It was just the first time I had seen that and it struck me as odd.

It is beyond my understanding why those competing level 7 skills aren't doing level 7. It is not in the spirit of the rules. We ran into this some at an out of state meet recently with one team in particular. As a parent, if my kids can do the skills for the next level well, I want her moved up even if it means she gets 8th at meets instead of 1st

 

[cadybearsmommy]

It is beyond my understanding why those competing level 7 skills aren't doing level 7. It is not in the spirit of the rules. We ran into this some at an out of state meet recently with one team in particular. As a parent, if my kids can do the skills for the next level well, I want her moved up even if it means she gets 8th at meets instead of 1st

Agree completely. I understand upgrading floor routine, etc if one apparatus like bars is missing skills. But I mean these were full out L7 routines with beautiful giants on the bars that I think would have scored just as well in L7!

 

[LindyHopper]

It is beyond my understanding why those competing level 7 skills aren't doing level 7. It is not in the spirit of the rules. We ran into this some at an out of state meet recently with one team in particular. As a parent, if my kids can do the skills for the next level well, I want her moved up even if it means she gets 8th at meets instead of 1st

The only time I would see this as acceptable would be if, for example, a gymnast had all of her Level 7 skills on vault, bars, and beam--but was not particularly good at tumbling and did not have the skills to compose a Level 7 routine. Why not do what you are capable of on all 4 events? Why hold back? The gymnasts is obviously NOT a level 7 yet if she doesn't have level 7 floor skills.

But if one has level 7 routines on all four events, I agree that one should not be competing level 6 (which in my mind is a waiting room for those who are reasonably solid in their level 5 skills, but aren't quite ready for level 7) because obviously level 6 has served it's purpose for her and she needs to move on.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

It is beyond my understanding why those competing level 7 skills aren't doing level 7. It is not in the spirit of the rules. We ran into this some at an out of state meet recently with one team in particular. As a parent, if my kids can do the skills for the next level well, I want her moved up even if it means she gets 8th at meets instead of 1st

What rules? There are no rules regarding moving up.

What a gym deems competition ready is completely open to interpretation. Some gyms let kids compete with skills barely there, some solid, some year 2 until they are scoring 38/39s. Our 4/5 kids are uptrain L7 and some L8 skills. No where near ready to compete them yet.

Now at early states there were girls from a gym competing L5 who have probably been ready to do L 7 for months if not close to a year ago. They were all top of the podium.

It is what is is. There will always be a gym that trains more hours, uptrains more, holds there kids back until they get top scores. Unless your kid is on "that" gyms team then they will go up against them.

For the record I don't like it, but it's not breaking any rules.

When my 9/10 hour kid beats a kid like that on an event she knows she did well. And when she doesn't she gets they went in with the advantage of more training. Her choice vs theirs.

 

[LindyHopper]

For the record I don't like it, but it's not breaking any rules.

Not to be pedantic, but the poster never said that it broke the rules. What was said is that it is against the spirit of the rules.

Of course, each of us may have our own interpretation of what the spirit of the rules are.

 

[Mish]

What rules? There are no rules regarding moving up.

I think the poster is referring to the rules of USAG that states this:

In the spirit of good sportsmanship, fairness to all athletes and competitive balance, the mobility system within the Jr. Olympic Program should be followed in the manner that it was intended:

1. Before moving up a level, every athlete should show proficiency at her current level.
2. Once a high level of proficiency is achieved at the athlete's current level, she should strive to move up to the next level, as long as it is done safely.
3. For athletes to repeat a level with the intent to gain an advantage over other competitors or teams IS NOT in the spirit of the Jr. Olympic Program or youth sports in general.

 

[MrsAnderson]

I have to admit that it is 'interesting' to see such high scores ALL the time.
It makes me feel bad for gymnasts that work so hard for things only to still be down the podium. I'm not sure what the reason is. I know every gym has different philosophies, training hours, etc...
At a recent meet a girl scored a 38.275 in level 6 and came in 5th!!!
That's an amazing score and to have 4 girls get even higher? She had a 9.75 on vault and came in 5th also.
I don't know the circumstances or who the girls were but it's half amazing to see so many routines so close to perfect and also frustrating.
One of our girls scored a 9.55 on beam and every time she does a back handspring her legs are WAY apart. She does a series of 2 and those legs are far enough apart that I would say with certainty they are .2 deduction each (or they should be). That means she only lost .05 on the entire rest of her beam routine...? Really? This makes me question the judging and how generous they're being...
This turned in to more a vent/rant, lol.

 

[Mommyo2az]

I think the poster is referring to the rules of USAG that states this:

In the spirit of good sportsmanship, fairness to all athletes and competitive balance, the mobility system within the Jr. Olympic Program should be followed in the manner that it was intended:

1. Before moving up a level, every athlete should show proficiency at her current level.
2. Once a high level of proficiency is achieved at the athlete's current level, she should strive to move up to the next level, as long as it is done safely.
3. For athletes to repeat a level with the intent to gain an advantage over other competitors or teams IS NOT in the spirit of the Jr. Olympic Program or youth sports in general.

Its a reality that all gyms will do something different (hold back, more hours, etc) and you will always come across them. We are going to be competing against "that gym" this morning. The girls all do level 7 routines on all 4 events (for level 6) some of them even competed level 7 at an out of state meet.

I fully expect them to be level 6 for this meet and sweep the podium. I also fully expect that my DD will put forth her best effort and let the cards fall where they may. There will always be someone faster, better, stronger - let that be a motivator!

I also think this is the part of the USAG rules that is very open to interpretation - Once a high level of proficiency is achieved at the athlete's current level, she should strive to move up to the next level, as long as it is done safely.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

The only time I would see this as acceptable would be if, for example, a gymnast had all of her Level 7 skills on vault, bars, and beam--but was not particularly good at tumbling and did not have the skills to compose a Level 7 routine. Why not do what you are capable of on all 4 events? Why hold back? The gymnasts is obviously NOT a level 7 yet if she doesn't have level 7 floor skills.

But if one has level 7 routines on all four events, I agree that one should not be competing level 6 (which in my mind is a waiting room for those who are reasonably solid in their level 5 skills, but aren't quite ready for level 7) because obviously level 6 has served it's purpose for her and she needs to move on.

Agree if they are missing any skills on any events for sure. But the ones I was referring to were definitely doing L7 skills on all four events.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

J

I have to admit that it is 'interesting' to see such high scores ALL the time.
It makes me feel bad for gymnasts that work so hard for things only to still be down the podium. I'm not sure what the reason is. I know every gym has different philosophies, training hours, etc...
At a recent meet a girl scored a 38.275 in level 6 and came in 5th!!!
That's an amazing score and to have 4 girls get even higher? She had a 9.75 on vault and came in 5th also.
I don't know the circumstances or who the girls were but it's half amazing to see so many routines so close to perfect and also frustrating.
One of our girls scored a 9.55 on beam and every time she does a back handspring her legs are WAY apart. She does a series of 2 and those legs are far enough apart that I would say with certainty they are .2 deduction each (or they should be). That means she only lost .05 on the entire rest of her beam routine...? Really? This makes me question the judging and how generous they're being...
This turned in to more a vent/rant, lol.

I don't think it's uncommon to see legs wide apart on a BHS- step out on beam. It may even be preferred but not sure.

 

[MrsAnderson]

J


I don't think it's uncommon to see legs wide apart on a BHS- step out on beam. It may even be preferred but not sure.

I am talking about wide apart as perpendicular to the beam. She straddles out of her jump.
(As opposed to an early split)

 

[cadybearsmommy]

I am talking about wide apart as perpendicular to the beam. She straddles out of her jump.
(As opposed to an early split)

Gotcha. I don't think I've seen that before having a hard time even picturing it lol.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I guess my post was more a lack of understanding why teams do things the way they do, and compete gymnasts at a lower level than what they actually are. I have a gymnast on the edge that just fell short of the next level because she was missing one skill on bars. She is having a very good season, and enjoying the success, but if she had been able to get her skill (starting to do it now, but can't complete it in a routine) she would have gladly entered the next level and never looked back. Even early season, there was talk of letting her compete if she got the skill. And I understand that is just the way it is, but if the goal is to eventually create a competent level 10, forward movement through the levels rather than winning lower level meets seems the more important goal. I am sure 10 year old DD could go and win the 10 year old age division for level 6 at state this year, but how does that help her long term gymnastics, when she is almost a competent level 8? How is that fair to the other kids who are real level 6s. Just like a 10 year old level 9 has no business competing against DD. And they are certainly out there, if their coaches chose to operate that way