WAG L7 without giants?

[Ausi_poppet]

[QUOTE="raenndrops, post: 421404, member: 5751"The other girl's gym was smaller and advanced the girl each year and was pushing her to get her to higher levels faster.... The next year, the girl moved to L8, still with the ugly giants. [/QUOTE]

Why do gyms do that? They do it here too, and I can't understand how it can at all benefit the gym or the child to come last all the time, move up and keep coming last. We have a couple of clubs that put girls up with very poor quality skills who score badly and then the next year they turn up in the next level and do it all over again. Some of those girls would actually have done better with a second year and a bit more time to develop the technique for the skills they have.

It is just about being able to say you have gymnasts at X level? Surely the fact that they either don't qualify for states or finish in 56th place would eventually come out?

 

[wgymmom]

8.5???? So I looked up our state scores from last year and an 8.5 top finish was 15th place on bars. Just trying to put things into perspective. I have seen routines in 7 without giants and typically they are low because the child just isn't ready and it shows in all the other skills (which need to be added to replace the missing skills). Level 6 was created for kids like your DD.

I always appreciate your encouraging words.

 

[raenndrops]

[QUOTE="raenndrops, post: 421404, member: 5751"The other girl's gym was smaller and advanced the girl each year and was pushing her to get her to higher levels faster.... The next year, the girl moved to L8, still with the ugly giants.

Why do gyms do that? They do it here too, and I can't understand how it can at all benefit the gym or the child to come last all the time, move up and keep coming last. We have a couple of clubs that put girls up with very poor quality skills who score badly and then the next year they turn up in the next level and do it all over again. Some of those girls would actually have done better with a second year and a bit more time to develop the technique for the skills they have.

It is just about being able to say you have gymnasts at X level? Surely the fact that they either don't qualify for states or finish in 56th place would eventually come out?[/QUOTE]
In this particular gym's case. it was to keep the girl and her parents happy and at the gym... if their team falls below X # of gymnasts, they will no longer have a team at all. This past year, they only had 10 girls on their team. They had L4, L5, L7, L9, and Xcel Gold.
They are a YMCA team. At L8, Nationals becomes "real" with National Champions and Team competition. If they get enough girls to L8 to make a team at Nationals, MAYBE their Y will give them some props... like I said - they are all about another sport there - it is all over their FB page and in the local papers, etc.
They had a L9 go to Nationals and place well and NOTHING - no FB mention... no newspaper mention... it was like it didn't happen or matter!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I always appreciate your encouraging words.

Honest and direct isn't always encouraging,, but at least its honest.

 

[chalkbowl]

I would say 95% of the time gymnasts advanced fast, with ugly skills (or no skills at all in some cases) is to keep parents & gymmies happy so they stay at the gym...

 

[Deleted member 17723]

I'm not a level 7.... but one of my best friends won states without giants for l7. She couldn't safely compete them (USAG) so she did kip cast handstand, free hip handstand, toe circle, long hang kip, free hip hand, layout flyaway. I think.

 

[Freckles]

My DD "had" her giants, then "lost" her giants; had giants, competed giants at one meet, had an awesome meet, lost giants, didn't compete them again, and placed 4th in the aa at states without them.

 

[wgymmom]

Honest and direct isn't always encouraging,, but at least its honest.

I was actually looking for BTDT posts and concrete examples of what that kind of routine might look like, not a coach's opinion. She has a top-notch head coach - whose name is not unknown on these boards - and he is well acquainted with my daughter, her abilities, her situation, and her potential - which you are decidedly not.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Well , you did post it on the WAG..... But no worries, just hit the ignore button and I vanish from you sight.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

My kid is still in compulsories (only L4). But if they coach is OK with her doing L7 w/o Giants, I am confused on what the problem is???

Just curious at what level could you not get away with, not doing Giants?

Again curious because our kids up train and I just like to know how far out they are with skills.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

I think part of the issue is that for many gyms, the Giant is the "gatekeeper" to L7. Many gyms (mine included) will NOT allow a kid to compete L7 without being able to do Giants. For some that simply means doing L6 instead, which is a good option, for some it means doing L5 again (which is what is happening at our gym, we don't compete L6).
Because many gyms are seeing the giant as a requirement (even though there are definitely other ways to fulfill the circling requirement), you will have MOST L7 bar routines include at least one giant. Judges are, for the most part, expecting it. Not including one could be seen as having a weakness on bars (not at all saying it means that in all cases, but that it can be perceived as such!!). I'm guessing that is what OP is afraid of.
I'm not an expert by any means, we are just heading into the world of Optionals. I don't know if complete giants are ever a hard requirement from USAG. It's a moot point for me since our gym has their own requirements and for us no Giants=no Optionals. Giants are included in EVERY optional bar routine.

 

[AWOL]

Just curious at what level could you not get away with, not doing Giants?
.

I once asked a high level judge this while I was helping at a meet and she said that it is expected for L9

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Because many gyms are seeing the giant as a requirement (even though there are definitely other ways to fulfill the circling requirement), you will have MOST L7 bar routines include at least one giants. Judges are, for the most part, expecting it. Not including one could be seen as having a weakness on bars (not at all saying it means that in all cases, but that it can be perceived as such!!).e.

But you can't lose points for something that is not required.
If you have the elements that meet the requirements, it then becomes how well you do them. Correct?

A "clean" routine will beat a sloppy one if all required elements are met, yes?

So when does degree of difficulty count.? Or does it?
Or is it more at Level 9 more gymmies will have harder skills, cleanly?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I once asked a high level judge this while I was helping at a meet and she said that it is expected for L9

Thanks, but is it just because most are doing them so you would not get as many points by not or are they actually required?

 

[vagymmomma]

Thanks, but is it just because most are doing them so you would not get as many points by not or are they actually required?

Once you get to Level 8 and above there are a lot more deductions that are applicable. I feel like I don't know half of them, but it's a key reason why any routine should be developed by knowledgeable folks. For example, there are deductions for "not up to level". This is a somewhat subjective deduction, but I would be pretty surprised if a bar routine without giants doesn't get dinged at a least a little on this point at L8, but a judge would have to weigh in on that specific point.

A L8 gymnast without giants likely has fear issues, injuries, or issues with swing mechanics -- any of which can contribute to deductions. Can you substitute giants for other circling skills? Yes. But you are also judged on other points like flow of the routine and variation (these are not the exact words in the COP - just showing not all are skill based deductions). A routine without giants may lack some of these points, so no giants impacts other requirements as well.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Once you get to Level 8 and above there are a lot more deductions that are applicable. I feel like I don't know half of them, but it's a key reason why any routine should be developed by knowledgeable folks. For example, there are deductions for "not up to level". This is a somewhat subjective deduction, but I would be pretty surprised if a bar routine without giants doesn't get dinged at a least a little on this point at L8, but a judge would have to weigh in on that specific point.

A L8 gymnast without giants likely has fear issues, injuries, or issues with swing mechanics -- any of which can contribute to deductions. Can you substitute giants for other circling skills? Yes. But you are also judged on other points like flow of the routine and variation (these are not the exact words in the COP - just showing not all are skill based deductions). A routine without giants may lack some of these points, so no giants impacts other requirements as well.

Thanks

So it sounds like Level 8 is where degree of difficulty counts as there is space to deduct for lack of.

And it seems Level 7 does not?

Which would make sense as Level 7 is actually beginning of Optionals, that's why they have levels, degree od difficulty should increase and at some point count.

Thinking of Level 6 as a bridge level between compulsories and Optionals.

Is my thinking somewhat correct?

 

[gymjunkie]

I once asked a high level judge this while I was helping at a meet and she said that it is expected for L9

Actually... by L9 a very talented bar worker such as Taylor Russon (western national bar champion this year) omit giants in favor of higher valued in-bar skills. She competed them as a L7 and L8 but dropped them for L9.

 

[gymjunkie]

... "might" omit giants...

 

[vagymmomma]

Thanks

So it sounds like Level 8 is where degree of difficulty counts as there is space to deduct for lack of.

And it seems Level 7 does not?

Which would make sense as Level 7 is actually beginning of Optionals, that's why they have levels, degree od difficulty should increase and at some point count.

Thinking of Level 6 as a bridge level between compulsories and Optionals.

Is my thinking somewhat correct?

"Up to level" deductions start at Level 8. I think degree of difficulty becomes more important at L9/10 when you need bonus to get a 10.0 start value. @gymjunkie just shared a great video on how you don't have to have giants at even L9 and up, but my experience outside of Nationals is that they are pretty common still in L9. My DD told me that for L10 she is considering doing only front giants (i.e., no back giants) as an example of another option.

I find L9/10 bars very difficult to "judge" (and watch ) as an untrained parent though. The mystery grows as the level does, and I happily leave it to the coaches to figure out.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Thanks gymjunkie.

I'm so confused. Really it comes down to whatever you do, do it well.

We have experienced this even in Xcel Bronze. Us parents up in arms, why aren't they going to the high beam.
Coach when they compete they need to compete well.
And other disgruntled parents well my kid did a harder skill. Well yes and they didn't do it well. That is not how the scoring is set up.

I don't know a lot but I know a clean, great form lesser skill will trump a sloppy "higher" skill when it comes to points.

I/we have these conversations with the kids often. Up training is awesome, keeps them engaged. And if its a meet, you need to be sure you have it well, not just have it. And I say this for levels where there are options, whatever option you have meet the requirements with a good skill.