Level 4 Floor Routine

[gymkat]

You are required to close your legs in a handstand.

Your feet must land simultaneously, no further apart than shoulder width.

You are not required to hold the handstand before the bridge.

I don't know how to put it more simply. I've been judging for 6 years.

 

[Chalky]

TimDad,
I have to agree that I prefer the look of the second bridge that you posted. However, I am curious to know where you got the information that picture 1 is not a bridge. I would say it's a bridge, but not a good one. In the Level 4 routine, I prefer seeing the bridge kickover done with legs straight and together. A very well conditioned gymnast can even kickover from bridge without bending the legs at all, but by using the core muscles to lever the legs over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49BxMBqAG4c

Regarding the bridge kickover as a progression for FHS. The part that prepares the gymnast for the FHS is the HS-Bridge phase rather than the kickover. In fact HS-Bridge-Stand or front limber is a more specific progression. To do a correct FHS or BHS on floor a gymnast needs to be able to have a strong HS and a good bridge with shoulders at least over hands. It is possible to do FHS or BHS without these pre-requisites, but the skill will never be as powerful. If you watch slow-mo of good handsprings on floor you will see the bridging phase in the air and handstand as the hands contact the mat. Personally, I don't like to teach FHS or BHS untill the gymnast has a good front and back limber. HTH

 

[Tim_Dad]

TimDad,
I have to agree that I prefer the look of the second bridge that you posted. However, I am curious to know where you got the information that picture 1 is not a bridge. I would say it's a bridge, but not a good one.

Actually, the photo's above of are the same gymnast showing the "progression" into a bridge. Photo 1 is the back-bend step. If the gymnast end's here, it's incomplete. Meaning, It's not - yet - "a bridge". (which is really the point i was trying to make above).

Photo two includes the action of pushing the hands behind the shoulders, into the textbook definition of "bridge", completing the skill. Eliminating the last step (to me) means - it's simply an "attempt" at a skill. If someone does a cartwheel, but didn't archive a vertical plane (i.e. muscles legs across the body instead of levered over) is it, by definition, a cartwheel?

The below is a gymnast who's floor score is 9.5 on this video. Yesterday, she scored a 9.6. (full disclosure: Yes it's my dd). The most significant difference between her and most of her competitors is the handstand-bridge-kickover element. If it's not this that's reducing her deductions, then I don't know what is. I'm just saying. (element is at 0:34 - 0:42 )

YouTube - Level 4 floor routine. Score 9.5

 

[gympanda]

I agree with gymkat and I have been judging for 8 years. The deductions are pretty clear. Joining the legs applies to the handstand phase, and landing feet simultanously means at the same time, not together. These are both designed to keep the kids from doing a front walkover type of beginning...and trust me...we see kids go over with their legs never coming together in a handstand and stepping to the ground one at a time. This is when the .1 & .1 will come in. Which, I will point out only equals .2.

Good routines are not built on one skill. So, if you see someone doing this skill with straight legs, they likely very flexible and strong, which would therefore translate into the rest of their routine...hence the higher score.

 

[gymdog]

Actually, the photo's above of are the same gymnast showing the "progression" into a bridge. Photo 1 is the back-bend step. If the gymnast end's here, it's incomplete. Meaning, It's not - yet - "a bridge". (which is really the point i was trying to make above).

This seems to be splitting hairs over semantics to me. It's a bridge if the position shown has the generally accepted name of a bridge. If you showed that picture to 10 gymnastics people and asked them what it was, it would be surprising, perhaps we could go as far as bizarre, if any of them answered anything other than bridge. That's a bridge. If I told someone not to bridge 3 year olds, and they put them into that and gave me that argument, I would assume they were being deliberately obtuse.

Though, the gymnast needs to push back after her feet hit. However, it's going to be hard to successfully kick over without falling without doing that anyway. If a kid kicks over, you can pretty much assume they probably did that.

There are more deductions than the ones listed for the major element of course, form, etc. This is why I noted earlier (and didn't mean to cause confusion) that a gymnast showing the skill with more advanced mastery and control would likely have less deductions because well, they'd be better at gymnastics. If you're better at gymnastics, you're probably going to score higher. There's no great leap here. But the truth is, if a kid did it with mastery and control but followed the minimum of the text exactly, they wouldn't get any deductions either and there's no bonus. It's impossible to compare scores on only one skill, although i will say around here I see a significant (though I wouldn't say majority) amount of kids who have feet wider than shoulder width. And a lot of insufficient leg seperation. But, and I'm not a judge, I see a lot of foot faults, form breaks, failure to lever out, failure to return to correct lunge position before rushing into the leap run, second leg slamming down almost at the same time as the first (hand in hand with insufficient angle). If kickover is completed, more so than the shoulders not going over. But you can't really make comparisons without seeing what else was judged. There's much more to the routine than this skill.

 

[Scarface]

It's join legs in the handstand phase, not in the landing. The legs can be shoulder width apart. While the level four routine posted is lovely, the bridge kickover is actually one of the weakest elements in the routine. As a judge, I would take for her shoulder falling forward and I know a lot of judges around here that deduct for the bounce when her feet hit (like taking an extra step). I think the gymnasts' excellent flexibility and fluidity are what set her apart for me.

 

[gymch34]

I hope I didnt offend you Tim Dad- I now know the photo is of your daughter. I agree w/ the other posters, both are bridges, just not the most correct bridges. I apologize if I offended you.

Technically, I look for a straight line in the handstand, shoulders over wrists, head neutral. The handstand to bridge is the lead up for the FHS, not the kickover part. A beginning front handspring is a fast handstand bridge. Actually when I teach beginners front handsprings I teach them to do a hs bridge and make it faster and faster-usually down hill. That way the learn the correct technique and dont end up sitting in a squat at the end.

I didnt watch the video, but I assure you the high score does not come from landing the bridge w/ straight legs.

The national team warm up (divised by the National Elite Coaching staff) has 2 bridges in it. 1 has straight legs feet together- more of a shoulder stretch, one has legs bent, heels under the hips, pressing hips up. I use this warm up w/ my athletes and can see the purpose of a straight leg, feet together bridge for this purpose. The national staff spends a lot of time teaching the 2nd bridge position that I described-as it applies more to tumbling.

I guess we can agree to diasgree- as our perspectives of coach & parent are quite different. Good luck and take care!

 

[coachnmom]

At a recent meet I asked one of our judges what our biggest general deductions were for the 17 girls I brought to the meet, they said the leg separation in our bridges was taking about .3 from the girls' scores. They are looking for legs together in the bridge. As for the shoulders, when your daughter lands in her bridge she should be focused on her fingers, pushing her shoulders over her hands. To help with this problem I have the girls do bridges against a wall trying to push their chest against the wall with straight legs.

 

[slkbeambabe07]

You are not required to land like #2, nor is it a deduction if you land like #1 (assuming it's controlled).

The deduction in #1 would be her shoulders are NOT over her hands, other than that there is nothing.

 

[gymbaby12]

They should be split. Judges actually prefer if they're split. Some picky judges even take off .05 0r .1 if their legs are together.

 

[gymkat]

Some picky judges even take off .05 0r .1 if their legs are together.

No, they don't. There aren't deductions for doing a skill "better" than the expectation.

 

[wordsmith]

The national team warm up (divised by the National Elite Coaching staff) has 2 bridges in it. 1 has straight legs feet together- more of a shoulder stretch, one has legs bent, heels under the hips, pressing hips up. I use this warm up w/ my athletes and can see the purpose of a straight leg, feet together bridge for this purpose. The national staff spends a lot of time teaching the 2nd bridge position that I described-as it applies more to tumbling.

This became a bit of a point of discussion for me on Beth Gardner's Gymnastics Minute video.

Everyone seems to teach the "push the legs straight and together" bridge- it looks "pretty", after all, and focuses the stretch in the shoulders. However, Tammy Biggs seems to be advocating against teaching this anymore. I've heard her say it a few times now, saying it destroys their flysprings. Here's the flow of my conversation with Beth:

Me: Hey Beth,

I should probably go over and pose this question on your blog, as I've already formulated some thought on the matter...

...but have you heard Tammy Biggs in regards to the way we've been teaching the bridge (straight legs together with emphasis on shoulder stretch)?

She seems to think teaching this is reinforcing a bad habit body positioning for flysprings (and tkatchevs) and that more emphasis should be placed on stretching the hip flexors while in the bridge (if I understand her correctly).

I am curious to know your take on this.

Beth: You know what? I haven't heard her talk about that, but I can give her a call and ask her thoughts and get back to you with any sort of clarifications she has.
I am sure we need to make sure our kiddos have good flexibility in their hip flexors, but the purpose of these recommendations for bridging is to keep stress off the lower back to avoid spinal injury as I talk about in the blog. ..and those recommendations were given to us by a consensus of sports physicians and pediatricians.

So, before I would change the configuration of how we teach the bridge position, I would look for other stretches that would do the same thing without adding stress to the lower back and do those in addition to the recommended bridge position.

Let me give Tammy a call and I'll post what I find out on my blog.

Me: Thanks so much for this!

I was thinking the same thing; either way though, one could stretch the shoulders or the hip flexors with other stretches without bridging, altogether...if that's the emphasis.

I also am not sure why it has to be one or the other, rather than both, perhaps dependent upon age and level. Since either way is a static position, I don't quite see the risk in developing neurological confusion as it relates to executing dynamic skills.
Yes, to a degree, the bridge can train body positions for skills. But if you're training for that, is there really a "one shape fits all" for all skills? Shouldn't you just drill the position needed, dependent upon the skill being taught? Training a bridge for level 4 compulsory shouldn't have the same look as for executing a tkatchev, should it?

Also, if one does do a picture perfect bridge (legs together straight, pushing shoulders over the hands), I'm not exactly sure this isn't the body position for a flyspring. Sure, with the hands on the ground, the feet are way ahead of the hips; but the hips are still open in that shape and if one tilts the gymnast holding that shape over onto the feet, aren't the feet now behind the hips?

Beth: That's my feeling on it. For a simplistic example, much like a cartwheel is similar but different than a round-off; they are two different skills with SOME similar components.

Still, I train each as a different skill with specific training to the different elements within each. Ie. Snap downs in round-off..switch leg teeters in cartwheels. I train each skill as a separate skill, and address the different components individually.

Likewise with any other skill set, kids need to understand that similar skills with different elements are STILL different skills. We, therefore, train them for BOTH skills using drills, flexibility, etc for each. Make sense?

Let me say this, however, I completely respect Tammy Biggs. I absolutely believe that she is one, if not THE, best women's coach in the US. I listen to anything she has to say because I know for a fact that she is always first and foremost concerned for the kids. Tammy is one of our diamonds in USAG. I adore her both professionally and as a person.
I left her a voicemail, but as you know, she's on the road pretty much 24/7/365. So, when I hear back from her, I'll post it to my blog.

Me: Oh, I absolutely respect her coaching knowledge as well. I've learned a lot just from her GymSmart videos, alone.

Thanks for sending her the inquiry. I look forward to your blogpost.

This was 6 months ago, and no follow up since.

Sorry if this brings us off topic as well as revives an old thread, rather than me starting a new one.


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