Level 5 bar deduction questions.

[Mariainlv]

No, actually I was referring to the parents thread. I thought those were parents no? And actually, changing something in Js life based on coaches who have never met her would be a giant fail. But you get an A for effort in the "pot stirring" category.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

If she doesn't have a kip at all, how on earth will she start training Levels 6/7? This is a recipe for disaster. She doesn't have the basic requirements to be a 5 never mind a 6 or a 7 and I can't imagine why she would be moved along with the skills as mentioned.

i'm not the only person to interpret what i read posted by marian. i guess i'm missing something.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This topic applies to J right now. She has all 3 other events down and will score nicely. Bars however, not so much.. The dreaded kip just isn't there. She will compete all 4 events this Saturday. However, the only reason she is competing bars is that this, in all likelyhood, will be her only meet this year. We are moving to Colorado and they do not have a spring compulsory season (Vegas has compulsories in the fall and spring) Most meets have already been registered for so we are a bit late to the fall season in Co. The hope is that even though the bars score will be DREADFUL that she can get the requisite 31 and start training 6/7. She has 6/7 skills on all other events so perhaps a solid year will bring the bars up to snuff.. Wish her luck!

both of our responses are in regard to the above post. what am i missing here?

 

[Mariainlv]

I never said she would compete a higher level without a kip. We are moving. She in likelyhood would not compete till next year at this time, save one meet. The gym she is moving to does not compete much at the lower levels. They have proven success so I have to trust they know what they are doing. Her coaches at the current gym recommended this gym for J, knowing her and knowing the new gyms philosophy. New gym owner is the one who TOLD me, have her compete, try to get the 31. We will work it out either way, would be nice not to have to spend time on the L5 routine once she moves, we can just go forward. The reason I said 6/7 is that they don't spend a season at 6.

What I got from the comments is people thought I meant J would be competing L6 like now. Nope, never said that. Next year, if shes ready. Her coaches think she will, and since thats what they do, I have to trust them, no?

 

[mariposa]

I gotta tell ya, making changes to J based on "internet experts" is a rather large fail. Opinions are like other things, we all have them.

I have learned a lot from the wonderful people here and have actually changed my mind on things because of peoples opinions. I never get when people come here and ask for advice, but don't really want it or comment and share their stories and don't like the responses that follow.

Truth is, not all coaches know what they are doing. Not all coaches have your child's best interest at heart. I have seen that time and time again here on this board and up close and personal at the gym my daughter went to before. When people question things, they usually already know deep down what the answer is, and they are hoping they are WRONG, but they are usually right.

It isn't always easy to get info from the more experienced, "been there done that" parents at the gym because they are usually never there sitting around watching everything anymore. The conversations and advice given here are often like sitting in the gym with a really experienced gym parent, just not in person. I respect the advice and definitely can say that I have learned much from the wise coaches, parents and even gymnasts on this board that share their experiences, in hopes of helping someone else.

So my response to your your comment would be, that I think NOT making a change to J's training/goals and progress could be end up being a rather large fail, chance you are taking. Sure, she could beat the odds, but is the risk worth it? I have seen it many times in real life, kids simply get burned out. They get tired of constantly struggling when they don't have to be. I have seen it right here on this very board, with a very talented young gymnast. And it is sad and most times avoidable if they could just slow down.

 

[MdGymMom01]

No, actually I was referring to the parents thread. I thought those were parents no? And actually, changing something in Js life based on coaches who have never met her would be a giant fail. But you get an A for effort in the "pot stirring" category.

Why is it that everyone else can say whatever they want without criticism, but I make a remark based on your direct quote and you single me out as "pot stirring"????

 

[MdGymMom01]

I have learned a lot from the wonderful people here and have actually changed my mind on things because of peoples opinions. I never get when people come here and ask for advice, but don't really want it or comment and share their stories and don't like the responses that follow.

Truth is, not all coaches know what they are doing. Not all coaches have your child's best interest at heart. I have seen that time and time again here on this board and up close and personal at the gym my daughter went to before. When people question things, they usually already know deep down what the answer is, and they are hoping they are WRONG, but they are usually right.

It isn't always easy to get info from the more experienced, "been there done that" parents at the gym because they are usually never there sitting around watching everything anymore. The conversations and advice given here are often like sitting in the gym with a really experienced gym parent, just not in person. I respect the advice and definitely can say that I have learned much from the wise coaches, parents and even gymnasts on this board that share their experiences, in hopes of helping someone else.

So my response to your your comment would be, that I think NOT making a change to J's training/goals and progress could be end up being a rather large fail, chance you are taking. Sure, she could beat the odds, but is the risk worth it? I have seen it many times in real life, kids simply get burned out. They get tired of constantly struggling when they don't have to be. I have seen it right here on this very board, with a very talented young gymnast. And it is sad and most times avoidable if they could just slow down.

And they all think "that will NEVER happen to my daughter...", but it does and before you know it, the damage has been done.

 

[NOG]

too much bother - realized I was going to be wasting my breath

 

[MdGymMom01]

too much bother - realized I was going to be wasting my breath

When you speak the truth, you are NEVER wasting your breath . Because even though a select few may not choose to listen and try and learn, there are so many other people that do listen and those people are very thankful that you took the time to share.

 

[gymdog]

Wow . You just insulted a whole lot of experienced and knowledgable coaches on this board. Your statement was just downright RUDE.

Not really. None of us work with these children day to day (well except the ones we work with) and can't assess their potential. For example I'm not sure what we even mean by she doesn't have a kip. The child has never made a kip? The child sometimes makes a kip, but not consistently?

As for moving a child out of a level 5 training group without a kip, for me that would be hard because they would not be able to do my L6 bars workout. So they would probably become very frustrated since everyone else would be going on and they would be left back and I would be frustrated. I would rather keep them in the L5 training group and work on the L6 skills they are working on in that group and keep them with similar ability kids on bars. Bars is the important one at this level. Many kids can easily learn the tumbling skills (which transfer to beam) at this level; they aren't very hard. Bars is different and requires more technique. That's not to say at all the kids aren't talented, just that they will generally find bars to be "behind" the other events.

We don't really know where she'll be in a year, so I wouldn't panic. it seems like there has been some miscommunication and misinterpretation but honestly it's not the biggest stretch in the world that a child that doesn't have a kip in Oct 2010 could be able to do the L6 bar routine by Dec 2011 (which is probably around when most states without a fall season will start competition). To get giants for L7, that I think would be a stretch, yes. But I don't really understand the whole "everyone should skip L6 for the sake of going to 7" phenomenon at all...seems like it will unnecessarily hold kids back or accelerate them. It seems to me like most of the kids I've seen do that were really more accurately at a L6 skill level overall. I have a kid that could be a 7 this year but it would be a struggle and we're just not going to put her through that at this young age when it makes no sense. Giants on bars, but would struggle with the routine, etc. They have to be able to do the routines and I think too many people (coaches even) just look at it from a skill standpoint. I am seeing so many bent legs and arms cast handstands and giants. That's just not acceptable. I'm glad we came out with the cast handstand or deduction rule for optionals now because it seemed a little harsh to me for 7s at first but at the same time I'm just starting to think if people assume they can skip every 3rd kid from a L5 bar level to a level 7 bar level in a couple months, we really need to strengthen our standards, because I don't think it should be like that most of the time.

 

[Megley]

Bars is the important one at this level. Many kids can easily learn the tumbling skills (which transfer to beam) at this level; they aren't very hard. Bars is different and requires more technique. That's not to say at all the kids aren't talented, just that they will generally find bars to be "behind" the other events.

We don't really know where she'll be in a year, so I wouldn't panic. it seems like there has been some miscommunication and misinterpretation but honestly it's not the biggest stretch in the world that a child that doesn't have a kip in Oct 2010 could be able to do the L6 bar routine by Dec 2011 (which is probably around when most states without a fall season will start competition). To get giants for L7, that I think would be a stretch, yes. But I don't really understand the whole "everyone should skip L6 for the sake of going to 7" phenomenon at all...seems like it will unnecessarily hold kids back or accelerate them. It seems to me like most of the kids I've seen do that were really more accurately at a L6 skill level overall. I have a kid that could be a 7 this year but it would be a struggle and we're just not going to put her through that at this young age when it makes no sense. Giants on bars, but would struggle with the routine, etc. They have to be able to do the routines and I think too many people (coaches even) just look at it from a skill standpoint. I am seeing so many bent legs and arms cast handstands and giants. That's just not acceptable. I'm glad we came out with the cast handstand or deduction rule for optionals now because it seemed a little harsh to me for 7s at first but at the same time I'm just starting to think if people assume they can skip every 3rd kid from a L5 bar level to a level 7 bar level in a couple months, we really need to strengthen our standards, because I don't think it should be like that most of the time.

I agree about bars. My daughter is sort of skipping from L5 to L7, though she did two years of L5 and a couple of L6 meets last year. Bars are the hardest event by far right now, though I can see vault being it next year. She is working L8 skills on beam and floor, but still struggling with getting a full L7 bar routine (which at our gym includes giants and a free hip at least to 3/4s and preferably to hs). I think Marian said the gym she is going to doesn't do a full season of L6, which I interpret as meaning they skip L6 with a score out meet. I do not know J, nor do I know how close she is to a kip but getting all the way from not having a consistent kip to Level 7 in a year, particularly if we are talking about giants and a free hip to at least 3/4s, could be stretch. I say this based only on the amount of time it has taken my own dd to get the free hip going consistently to 3/4s. I'd say more like two years based purely on my own dd's progress.

Again, I don't know J and she could be a super fast learner who will get it all just fine. Hopefully the new coach will not push her into something she isn't ready for. At this point, as I understand it she hasn't even moved so all this is really nothing but speculation anyway. Only time will tell.

 

[bookworm]

i'm not the only person to interpret what i read posted by marian. i guess i'm missing something.

both of our responses are in regard to the above post. what am i missing here?

Thanks Dunno because you were thinking the same thing as me and responded the same way...

 

[bogwoppit]

What I will say here is that MarianLV came here to post meet results and video, she also came and told us about her DD's lack of a kip and plans for L6/7 at the new gym based on the coaching advice.

MarianLV when you put so much info out about yourself on a board that is full of experienced parents and coaches you are gong to get lots of input, which you did. You do not have to heed any of it. But to imply that the members (who are trying to help you) are anything but genuine is really beyond the pale.

If you do not like someone's advice, put them on ignore or be big enough just to ignore them. Name calling is just not cool here.

 

[NOG]

Two things. Im not the OP, and second, no one ever said J would compete 6 without a kip. She did not have a kip the one L5 meet she was doing this season. The coaches thought was she could continue to uptrain and if she had gotten the score for 5 great, no need to work on those ROUTINES. No one ever said or implied that any child would compete L6 without a kip, because THAT is absurd.

For the record, i'm not considering changing anything in J's training because I trust her coaches and they are doing what we (husband and I) pay them to do, coach.

I gotta tell ya, making changes to J based on "internet experts" is a rather large fail. Opinions are like other things, we all have them.

Sorry, just struck a chord. Never said I was changing anything, and I didn't start this post. I merely commented and people then commented, taking out of context what I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear or they misunderstood.

No, actually I was referring to the parents thread. I thought those were parents no? And actually, changing something in Js life based on coaches who have never met her would be a giant fail. But you get an A for effort in the "pot stirring" category.

Since we're talking about the parent thread and I'm one that gave some well intentioned advice/opionions - I'm taking a crack here. To be fair, here is my original comment on that thread

Quoteosted by NOG

Originally Posted by Mariainlv Link Removed
The feel that the moves in the L6 bar routine do more harm than good, so they move on as soon as the score is there.
.

??? That makes NO sense to me. I know at least one very famous Elite gym who really pushes for their girls to compete level 6 (would rather them skip 7) as it is SO beneficial to form! Maybe you're trying to say that the SCORING on the level 6 bar routine is Brutal and therefore don't want thier girls discouraged (I know a lot gyms feel this way and that's the reason that they opt to score out of 6).

Also - has the new gym evaluated/worked with your dd yet? I would seriously question a gym that makes promises w/o ever having seen/worked with a girl,

Not sure if this is what they are telling you, but that is what I'm hearing from this and your other thread. In our gym, a girl would not even move up to level 5 w/o the kip (unless she were older-had competed 4 for 2yrs already[they don't like them to stay at a level too long] and was so close to getting that kip).

Your dd is only 7 and has SO much potential. Please consider checking out ALL the gym options around you when you move. Don't just take whatever the 1st gym tells you as the best way to go. Training level 5 and perfecting form is NEVER a waste. I know a lot of gyms have a fear of Level 6 (it is scored notoriously low), but it does have many benefits. Make sure that the gym that you're chosing is the right gym for your dd. Link Removed

I AGREE that one should never make life altering decisions based solely on "Internet Experts", but where is the harm in considering that they actually have a valid point? I've come to appreciate this many varied opinions on this board, even if I don't always agree with them. After all, why else post on here if one neither wants NOR appreciates any opinions. What's the purpose of this board if not to share? Never did anyone suggest that you should drop everything and only listen to one poster or another. I think the purpose was to give you varying opinions - face it not all coaches have the best interest of a child in mind and we just wanted you to be aware and question.

I never said she would compete a higher level without a kip. We are moving. She in likelyhood would not compete till next year at this time, save one meet. The gym she is moving to does not compete much at the lower levels. They have proven success so I have to trust they know what they are doing. Her coaches at the current gym recommended this gym for J, knowing her and knowing the new gyms philosophy. New gym owner is the one who TOLD me, have her compete, try to get the 31. We will work it out either way, would be nice not to have to spend time on the L5 routine once she moves, we can just go forward. The reason I said 6/7 is that they don't spend a season at 6.

What I got from the comments is people thought I meant J would be competing L6 like now. Nope, never said that. Next year, if shes ready. Her coaches think she will, and since thats what they do, I have to trust them, no? __________________

What we're really talking about is that she is expected to be competing level 7 by next winter. You've stated before that your gym opts out of 6 (I'll get to that in a minute) and so we're talking about being concerned that a girl who has no kip competing level 5 jumps to competing level 7 by next winter. That's the big . I know that you have said that she HAS most of 6/7 skills on the other events, but I think many question what is considered "HAS THEM". The scores that were posted don't indicate a solid mastery of the level 5 skills on the other events - so what is HAS them? The other events can't be discounted when it comes to jumping up to 7 next winter either. She did very well for a brand new level 5, I wouldn't call it mastered and is not only training but HAS level 6/7 skills.

Originally Posted by Mariainlv Link Removed
Great guesses guys!

Floor 7.1 (weird, score sheet had 6.9 from one judge and 7.8 from another, which was crossed out and had 7.4)
Vault 8.4 (second had more pop and no steps)
Beam 8.275,

Yesterday J competed L5. Placed 2nd on vault, 2nd on beam and 3rd floor. Yup, no kip in sight. She would be bored to tears by L4.

Weren't there only 5 girls in her age group? That is great, but "bored to tears in level 4"?

Is it possible that you've mistaken what the coach was saying about J competing level 7 by next winter and that it would be a colossal waste of time to keep training 5? I AGREE that there is no need to work the level 5 routines for the next 12 months, but it is NEVER a waste of time to work skills that are not mastered yet. In the post from the other thread, you had stated (which is the comment that prompted my reply in that thread)

Originally Posted by Mariainlv Link Removed
The feel that the moves in the L6 bar routine do more harm than good, so they move on as soon as the score is there.--- Actually he specifically pointed out the release move (flyaway?) and several other things that he said give him nightmares. He said that some skills don't lead to upper level skills, that they actually hinder them. He said other things that were above my head. For the record, he is a very well known and respected coach and his specialty is bars so perhaps I misunderstood him. __________________------He said just letting go of the bar and just flipping teaches bad habits? Again, I dont really know what he meant, so I dont want to put words in his mouth.

Then a mom from your own gym commented

Posted by Link RemovedI think that if you are talking about what the coach said at the meeting, he was saying that it is common for L6 bars to be taught incorrectly and that both the baby giant and the flyaway can be harmful to the girls if taught incorrectly because they have to relearn it in the higher levels. But I'm pretty sure that what he was trying to do was emphasize how important it is to get that L6 bars right.

Again, to be fair I'll include my response to that in that thread.

Posted by NOG --Now THAT makes much more sense! Taught incorrectly, I agree - as with ALL skills, incorrect instruction can be very harmful. I'm glad to know that the coach wasn't really trying to say that training level 6 elements was detrimental to an optional gymnast - those skills are essential to all optional gymnasts. I was trying to picture how a coach thought that they would possibly teach a fly-away from straight out of a giant w/o ever having taught them a tap swing fly-away 1st . That would be harmful and dangerous!

Is it possible that this whole "stop training 5" issue has been misunderstood?

Seeing as I am only an "internet expert" I'm sure you've thrown out most of what I said, but if you stuck with it - I think most of us were just confused.

J is a very talented little girl! No one is denying that she has loads of potential. I think most of us were just trying to caution you with stories that we've witnessed over the years that we've been in this sport. I don't post on here often, but as you have said "this struck a chord".

I sincerely wish J luck and wherever/whatever level she is training/competing in the future.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Since we're talking about the parent thread and I'm one that gave some well intentioned advice/opionions - I'm taking a crack here. To be fair, here is my original comment on that thread I AGREE that one should never make life altering decisions based solely on "Internet Experts", but where is the harm in considering that they actually have a valid point? I've come to appreciate this many varied opinions on this board, even if I don't always agree with them. After all, why else post on here if one neither wants NOR appreciates any opinions. What's the purpose of this board if not to share? Never did anyone suggest that you should drop everything and only listen to one poster or another. I think the purpose was to give you varying opinions - face it not all coaches have the best interest of a child in mind and we just wanted you to be aware and question.

What we're really talking about is that she is expected to be competing level 7 by next winter. You've stated before that your gym opts out of 6 (I'll get to that in a minute) and so we're talking about being concerned that a girl who has no kip competing level 5 jumps to competing level 7 by next winter. That's the big . I know that you have said that she HAS most of 6/7 skills on the other events, but I think many question what is considered "HAS THEM". The scores that were posted don't indicate a solid mastery of the level 5 skills on the other events - so what is HAS them? The other events can't be discounted when it comes to jumping up to 7 next winter either. She did very well for a brand new level 5, I wouldn't call it mastered and is not only training but HAS level 6/7 skills.

Weren't there only 5 girls in her age group? That is great, but "bored to tears in level 4"?

Is it possible that you've mistaken what the coach was saying about J competing level 7 by next winter and that it would be a colossal waste of time to keep training 5? I AGREE that there is no need to work the level 5 routines for the next 12 months, but it is NEVER a waste of time to work skills that are not mastered yet. In the post from the other thread, you had stated (which is the comment that prompted my reply in that thread)



Then a mom from your own gym commented
Again, to be fair I'll include my response to that in that thread. Is it possible that this whole "stop training 5" issue has been misunderstood?

Seeing as I am only an "internet expert" I'm sure you've thrown out most of what I said, but if you stuck with it - I think most of us were just confused.

J is a very talented little girl! No one is denying that she has loads of potential. I think most of us were just trying to caution you with stories that we've witnessed over the years that we've been in this sport. I don't post on here often, but as you have said "this struck a chord".

I sincerely wish J luck and wherever/whatever level she is training/competing in the future.

Very thorough and well said Nog!!

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

Going into a meet & missing kips bc you are inexperienced is totally different than facing the bars knowing you do not have 2 of the major skills in a routine. Someone needs to help this kid out!

Why would a gymnast without a kip be even considered for moving up to Level 5? To me, that skill is the absolute gatekeeper for the Level and without it, her scores will be dismal. Why wouldn't she continue to compete as a 4 and when she gets the skill, move up? Or she could even do prep op while working on the skill. I don't care if she won everything as a 4, without the kip, she shouldn't go 5 because she is missing a MAJOR skill.[/QUOTE][/B]


Just wanted to add this. Doesn't pertain to level 5, but...

My dd's level 4 team had their first meet of the season a few weeks ago and it made me think of this thread. An 8 year old teammate of dd's scored as follows:
9.65 beam
9.55 floor
9.7 vault
6.8 bars --- fell on front hip circle and mill circle, and I think she even took a deduction on the cut-back. PLUS missing connections. She cannot do a fhc and is also missing a mill circle. Her form is beautiful, but she's just not good on bars. The coach had her compete bars knowing that she would take falls and other deductions.

Anyway, the 35.7 AA score landed her on the podium. And she qualified to state.

1st on beam
2nd on floor
1st on vault
nothing on bars
3rd AA

I think she did great, considering. The awards went out 13 places, and there were 25 in her age group of 8 & Unders.

If she had scratched on bars, she wouldn't have placed at all, nor would she have qualified to state. The kid left the meet on Cloud 9 and was in no way humiliated.

 

[NotAMom]

If she had scratched on bars, she wouldn't have placed at all, nor would she have qualified to state. The kid left the meet on Cloud 9 and was in no way humiliated.

This is just so wrong. And, these results as a whole are no indication of a competent gymnast who is advancing to the next round. This kind of situation sends a wrong message to the kid and those involved. It's false sense of success and it's instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, the kid should be happy (who wouldn't be), but... Unless this kid realizes what she's lacking and feel humble (not humiliated) and lucky to have advanced, she will quit before long.

 

[mariposa]

This is just so wrong. And, these results as a whole are no indication of a competent gymnast who is advancing to the next round. This kind of situation sends a wrong message to the kid and those involved. It's false sense of success and it's instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, the kid should be happy (who wouldn't be), but... Unless this kid realizes what she's lacking and feel humble (not humiliated) and lucky to have advanced, she will quit before long.

I am not what I think on this girl's situation. I think that at DDs gym, she would have scratched bars. If they don't have the skills they don't compete the event, one of our girls has scratched bars all season, not sure if she will scratch at her last meet (and last chance to qualify for States). I am not sure what the deciding factor should be. I guess it depends on the gym's philosophy. This gymnast is doing VERY well on the other events, but I think if she had to scratch bars, it might motivate her to work harder at bars? Who knows. Heaven knows my kid was out competing L4 before she was ready, yet she did have all her skills, they were still rough around the edges and she lacked polish big time, but that was the gym's philosophy and they frequently had kids competing before they were ready, in levels they weren't ready for.

I think that maybe they should have waited for this girl (to try to encourage her to work harder on bars) and then let her do bars at a qualifying meet later on so she could go to States. It might have been just what she needed to get her to work really hard on those bar skills.

Then again, seeing how close she is to 1st AA might motivate her, too and missing skills might. Depends on the gymnast I guess.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

This is just so wrong. And, these results as a whole are no indication of a competent gymnast who is advancing to the next round. This kind of situation sends a wrong message to the kid and those involved. It's false sense of success and it's instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, the kid should be happy (who wouldn't be), but... Unless this kid realizes what she's lacking and feel humble (not humiliated) and lucky to have advanced, she will quit before long.

I guess I don't understand why this is "wrong." The kid knows exactly what she's lacking and so do the coaches: mill circle, front hip circle. This is a child who just can't seem to get bars. She goes through the same motions as the rest of her teammates every practice. Same stations, same drills, same conditioning, same workout. Since she's awful on bars, she understands that she needs to work harder on the other events to make up for it. She continues to work on bars, learning to do the skills correctly with form. As we understand it, it's better to attempt the skills correctly with good form and fall, then to chuck the skills with poor form and make them. So, when this kid finally gets a mill circle and a front hip circle, they will be right and not ugly.

I don't understand how it's "instant gratification" either. The child spent 2 years as a level 3 and still couldn't get her mill circle without hooking her knee and switching her hands OR get her feet on the bar for the level 3 dismount. Coaches are taking it in stride, I guess. Competing a third season as a level 3 would be ridiculous, especially when the child is this proficient as a level 4. Does anyone think she'll go on to level 5 anytime soon? No, not really. But should she be held back in level 3 or not allowed to compete? Seems silly to me.

Maybe I'm wrong (and I'm definitely willing to admit when I am)...but...wouldn't it be kind of "wrong" to hold a kid back and not let them compete when they are capable of scoring the way this kid is? I don't envy the coach who has to explain that a gymnast can't compete because of the bars, when the rest of her events are that near perfect...and she's scoring higher than most of her teammates and competitors?

 

[LizzieLac]

I see the difference as this: if you can't do a kip you can't even get on the bar to do the level 5 routine. At least the level 4 who hooks her leg on the shoot through or missed the FHC can at leat get on the bar and ATTEMPT the routine.

However, I bet this child will improve her bars over time. From what I see it is not unusual for kids to have a "weak" event.