Level 5 bar deduction questions.

[gymdog]

Well, there's also a difference between L4 and L5. L4 is a little more relaxed for me, it's more for competitive experience. Level 5 the routines become significantly more complex and require greater strength and technique. You can't really just fake it through the routine. When a kid doesn't have the ability to kip, usually their swings are weak too. You don't even have the chance to work on routine amplitude and flow with connections. Same with the other events, if power is weak it is difficult to go over the table relative to doing the handstand flatback in L4. The floor routine is longer and more complex with two BHS at the end. It becomes more important for safety and progression that the kids are able to do the skills competently. Even more so for L6. If they are promoted to L6 struggling with L5 (any of the routines), it's going to be a huge struggle to compete at that level. They will be facing many competitors who are essentially much more prepared than they are. What we have to realize is in some places compulsories are getting high 9s on ALL four events. To get them on some events doesn't necessarily mean the kid needs to move to the next level. They need to master all skills at the current level and have the skills safely and competently (in terms of technique, not to just throw and build bad habits) for the next level.

I would be more willing to start a kid who had most L4 skills competing, just to put them in the competitive atmosphere and hopefully improve the weaker skills. But if they could not do multiple L4 skills (FHC is used in L5 too...also pretty similar action to kip...if a kid cannot do the FHC then they will probably be weak at kipping at that point) I can't see moving them to L5. To me that's two different things. Sometimes you bring kids onto your beginning team training without them having every skill, because there is no other appropriate place for them to work at that level.

 

[MdGymMom01]

I personally don't think that situation is wrong either. Most coaches know that bars tends to be the hardest event for young ones to get because the skills are very technical and it takes a lot of coordination. As long as the child wants to compete bars and knows that it is a "learning process" then there is no need to scratch the event. Her other 3 events are very strong but I would definitely not think about moving her to 5 untill her bars comes up to speed. Every gymnast has one "weak event" but this gymnast seems to be at the correct level for her skills.

My dd was like this gymnast in level 4--very strong on vault, bars and beam but very weak on floor (needed the spot on the ROBHS). Even when her 7's were figured into the AA score, she still placed top 5 in AA because of her other strong events. I do not consider this to be "wrong" at all.

 

[bookworm]

This is just so wrong. And, these results as a whole are no indication of a competent gymnast who is advancing to the next round. This kind of situation sends a wrong message to the kid and those involved. It's false sense of success and it's instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, the kid should be happy (who wouldn't be), but... Unless this kid realizes what she's lacking and feel humble (not humiliated) and lucky to have advanced, she will quit before long.

Well, there's also a difference between L4 and L5. L4 is a little more relaxed for me, it's more for competitive experience. Level 5 the routines become significantly more complex and require greater strength and technique. You can't really just fake it through the routine. When a kid doesn't have the ability to kip, usually their swings are weak too. You don't even have the chance to work on routine amplitude and flow with connections. Same with the other events, if power is weak it is difficult to go over the table relative to doing the handstand flatback in L4. The floor routine is longer and more complex with two BHS at the end. It becomes more important for safety and progression that the kids are able to do the skills competently. Even more so for L6. If they are promoted to L6 struggling with L5 (any of the routines), it's going to be a huge struggle to compete at that level. They will be facing many competitors who are essentially much more prepared than they are. What we have to realize is in some places compulsories are getting high 9s on ALL four events. To get them on some events doesn't necessarily mean the kid needs to move to the next level. They need to master all skills at the current level and have the skills safely and competently (in terms of technique, not to just throw and build bad habits) for the next level.

I would be more willing to start a kid who had most L4 skills competing, just to put them in the competitive atmosphere and hopefully improve the weaker skills. But if they could not do multiple L4 skills (FHC is used in L5 too...also pretty similar action to kip...if a kid cannot do the FHC then they will probably be weak at kipping at that point) I can't see moving them to L5. To me that's two different things. Sometimes you bring kids onto your beginning team training without them having every skill, because there is no other appropriate place for them to work at that level.

I agree with the above two posters who are basically saying the same thing...this kid did not have the requirements to go to Level 5, even if it is "only" bars...they need to be competent on all 4 events to safely move up and continue to progress and not as one poster said, just get bad habits.

 

[NotAMom]

If she had scratched on bars, she wouldn't have placed at all, nor would she have qualified to state. The kid left the meet on Cloud 9 and was in no way humiliated.

OK, let me clarify a couple of things... (yes, I often am far from being clear)

I was solely responding to what I quoted (see above). And more so, what's in bold.

I don't oppose she competing at all. That is, I'm glad she did and I'm ok with that so long as she scratches the weak event. Scratching bars would not have taken away from her any of her well deserved achievements (the 9s will still be 9s).

Keep in mind that she was far from being ready on the 4th event. We're not talking about her missing one last skill or her merely needing some polishing. The fact that she didn't skip the bars tells me that someone told her that she was ready. The fact that she was on cloud nine and did not feel humble tells me that she didn't understand the circumstances under which she got there (and no one bother explaining that to you). I was just interpreting what was written as I don't have any insight into how it came about and how she actually felt.

Along that line of being a repeated L3, let me just say it's not uncommon at all that some kids will spend 2-3 years in L3 or preteam before they get to the first competition level (which would be L4/5 in my book). So, as far as I'm concerned this particular gymnast is still a rookie competitor. So, how's that a terrible thing to have her scratch one event while many gyms would even let her compete at all?

Lastly, I agree with Gymdog in his/her saying that we can definitely be more forgiving with L4 from a safety and competence standpoint. With that being said, I think it's far more effective in a long run for her to learn the lesson early (in a gentle way).

 

[MdGymMom01]

The fact that she was on cloud nine and did not feel humble tells me that she didn't understand the circumstances under which she got there (and no one bother explaining that to you).

I disagree here. The 8 year old teammate in this situation scored in the upper 9's in 3 out of the 4 events--that is AMAZING!! She has every right to be on cloud 9!!!! I am not sure what you mean by her not understanding the circumstances under which she got there--please explain further on this.

 

[Mustanggal99]

I'm the coach of our L5s. We're a very young team (not even a year old yet) and the two girls I have were L4s for three seasons. One was state champion and the other was 4th all around. We went ahead and moved these girls to L5. Over the summer, W figured out her kip and has it consitantly now while S is still hit or miss. I sat her down with her parents and talked to both of them down at the beginning of the season about her skills and possible scores. S went into the first meet knowing that she would probably get a 6 on bars due to me spotting both kips. Long story short- S has yet to score above a 7 on bars and is still hit or miss on her kips but has placed 1st all around in almost every competition she's been to due to her high scores on her other events. She knew going in that her bar score would be low and understood that she still has some work to do. From the coach's standpoint, I was going to lose this kid if I kept her at L4 again. I honestly think it really depends on the kid and their attitude and their parents.
A kip is one of those skills that takes time to master. As a coach, I take each child into consideration when I advance them. A child scoring 38AA needs to progress in my opinion even if she's not 100% ready as long as everyone knows going in what the outcome is going to be.

 

[bookworm]

I'm the coach of our L5s. We're a very young team (not even a year old yet) and the two girls I have were L4s for three seasons. One was state champion and the other was 4th all around. We went ahead and moved these girls to L5. Over the summer, W figured out her kip and has it consitantly now while S is still hit or miss. I sat her down with her parents and talked to both of them down at the beginning of the season about her skills and possible scores. S went into the first meet knowing that she would probably get a 6 on bars due to me spotting both kips. Long story short- S has yet to score above a 7 on bars and is still hit or miss on her kips but has placed 1st all around in almost every competition she's been to due to her high scores on her other events. She knew going in that her bar score would be low and understood that she still has some work to do. From the coach's standpoint, I was going to lose this kid if I kept her at L4 again. I honestly think it really depends on the kid and their attitude and their parents.
A kip is one of those skills that takes time to master. As a coach, I take each child into consideration when I advance them. A child scoring 38AA needs to progress in my opinion even if she's not 100% ready as long as everyone knows going in what the outcome is going to be.

I think this is a little different in that she is doing the kip and you are spotting her and she is not scratching the event..it seems as if it is being worked through to move her up safely...that said, if she still doesn't get her kip by herself while competing like this (with the spots etc) , I don't think that the fact that she is placing well because her other events are strong will allow her to move to Level 6.

 

[NGL780309]

Wow . You just insulted a whole lot of experienced and knowledgable coaches on this board. Your statement was just downright RUDE.

I have to respectfully disagree. You don't ever really know who anyone is on the internet. Just because they say they are an experienced coach doesn't mean they are. I wouldn't listen to internet experts either. They could be anyone.