WAG Level 8 "up to level" standards

[fuzi]

For the other levels on beam:

For no deduction for "acro level" level 9 should have: B + C series (BHS + LOSO or BHS + back tuck), B or better additional acro element, B + B dismount combo or stand-alone C dismount.
A max 0.2 deduction "acro level" for level 9 would be: B + B flight series (BHS BHS given as example), no additional tumbling, and a stand-alone B dismount.

For level 10 beam, no deduction for "acro level": B + C/D salto or 3 element series, two additional saltos or aerials in the routine, and a B + C dismount combo or D or higher stand alone dismount.
A max deduction 0.2 acro level for level 10 would be a B + C series (example was BHS + LOSO), no additional tumbling, and a C dismount not connected to anything.

 

[rjb123]

Wow- my DD did more than that in her L7 beam last year!

 

[raenndrops]

Wow- my DD did more than that in her L7 beam last year!

And your daughter was only required to have 5 A and 2 B skills.
At our gym, minimize extra skills to minimize deductions.

 

[LizzieLac]

Here is what I found. I am not a judge (HA) but I would think she would get.2 deduction for "acro elements not up to competitive level." I thought she had to split jumps, which might be a composition deduction. And I agree her switch leap might not have been to 180. I am perplexed why our girls and most I see do a standing back tuck...
Composition (LEVEL 8 ONLY)
Missing Acro elements bwd & fwd or swd each .10
- If only in dismount .05
Spatially - insuff. use of entire beam .10
Insufficient distribution of elements .10
-Dmt. a single ele. of min. req. difficulty for Lev. .05
Insufficient level changes .10
Failure to show movement/choreography
in diff. directions (fwd/swd/bwd) .10
More than 2 pivot (str. leg ½ turns) throughout exercise .10
More than 2 dance elements of the same shape
(tuck/wolf or straddle) each type .10 .10
More than 1 leap/jump to front support each .10
Acro elements not up to competitive level .20
Lack of balance between acro & dance elements .20
Lack of dance series (min. of 2 elements from Gr. 1, 2, or 3) .20
More than one element before mount .20

 

[flippingtogether]

According to the clinic I was at last weekend, as well as what I got from National Congress in the summer, USAG is moving towards clearer standards for the "acro up to level" deduction. Officially, these are recommendations right now, but once they are in print, they should be the law of the land.

For no "acro up to level" deduction on beam, level 8 needs a B + B flight series, a dismount series or a B stand-alone dismount, and an additional acro element.

The max 0.2 "acro up to level" deduction is for a routine with A no flight + B flight series, a stand-alone A dismount, and no other tumbling. The example given of a routine that would get this max 0.2 dismount is the routine with walkover + BHS or cartwheel + round-off and then a front tuck dismount, with nothing else.

This routine is in the middle. Her series is "weak" with the A no flight + B flight, she does have an additional acro element (the press mount, which is a B), and her dismount is "weak" (A skill, not in series). Based on this, I would take probably take 0.10 in "acro not up to competitive level." 0.15 would also be justifiable.

Thanks much, Fuzi. This is so helpful to hear.
So....if a kid has a BWO-BHS series, a roundoff backtuck dismount, and a C dance skill (NOT acro, like a standing backtuck) thrown in there - based on where USAG is going there still would be a deduction, correct (for acro not where it needs to be)?

 

[rjb123]

And your daughter was only required to have 5 A and 2 B skills.
At our gym, minimize extra skills to minimize deductions.

IDK- she always scored really high- averaged 9.5 to 9.7 plus on beam all season so I don't think it hurt her. I don't think her coaches put the girls out to compete if they are not ready or put them out there with skills that are not competition ready. At the same time, they don't play that game of compete the bare minimum either. DD wouldn't like that- it is not in her nature. Last year she competed upper end skills for seven, and I imagine will do the same in eight. She has not been "sandbagged" either- that is not something they do at her gym either IMO. She just likes to push herself and compete what she is ready to do. That said, I thought that routine was really nice- maybe not a 9.8, but you know it is all relative to the scores that were given out before she went. If they had just given some 9.6's and she came along and was better- well there you have it.

 

[GymCMLA]

According to the clinic I was at last weekend, as well as what I got from National Congress in the summer, USAG is moving towards clearer standards for the "acro up to level" deduction. Officially, these are recommendations right now, but once they are in print, they should be the law of the land.

For no "acro up to level" deduction on beam, level 8 needs a B + B flight series, a dismount series or a B stand-alone dismount, and an additional acro element.

The max 0.2 "acro up to level" deduction is for a routine with A no flight + B flight series, a stand-alone A dismount, and no other tumbling. The example given of a routine that would get this max 0.2 dismount is the routine with walkover + BHS or cartwheel + round-off and then a front tuck dismount, with nothing else.

This routine is in the middle. Her series is "weak" with the A no flight + B flight, she does have an additional acro element (the press mount, which is a B), and her dismount is "weak" (A skill, not in series). Based on this, I would take probably take 0.10 in "acro not up to competitive level." 0.15 would also be justifiable.

So the standard BHS-BHS series RO-Back pike dismount would get a deduction b/c there isn't an additional acro element? Or since the dismount is in series do they not need a stand-alone acro element?

 

[raenndrops]

IDK- she always scored really high- averaged 9.5 to 9.7 plus on beam all season so I don't think it hurt her. I don't think her coaches put the girls out to compete if they are not ready or put them out there with skills that are not competition ready. At the same time, they don't play that game of compete the bare minimum either. DD wouldn't like that- it is not in her nature. Last year she competed upper end skills for seven, and I imagine will do the same in eight. She has not been "sandbagged" either- that is not something they do at her gym either IMO. She just likes to push herself and compete what she is ready to do. That said, I thought that routine was really nice- maybe not a 9.8, but you know it is all relative to the scores that were given out before she went. If they had just given some 9.6's and she came along and was better- well there you have it.

My OG also likes competing harder skills than needed, so I get that

 

[Gymmommy71]

So the standard BHS-BHS series RO-Back pike dismount would get a deduction b/c there isn't an additional acro element? Or since the dismount is in series do they not need a stand-alone acro element?

If this is true it explains why my DDs beam scores have been lower than her L7 scores for similarly executed routines - the above is all she is doing as far as acro in her routine. I honestly do not think our coaches are aware that they could get deducted for not having more acro than this - as gym, our policy is always to minimize skills while meeting requirements, so maybe the lack of clarity from the USAG is hurting us here. On floor our girls only do 2 passes, so I'm wondering about that too.

 

[fuzi]

Thanks much, Fuzi. This is so helpful to hear.
So....if a kid has a BWO-BHS series, a roundoff backtuck dismount, and a C dance skill (NOT acro, like a standing backtuck) thrown in there - based on where USAG is going there still would be a deduction, correct (for acro not where it needs to be)?

Correct, a BWO + BHS series and RO + Back tuck dismount with no additional acro would get a composition deduction for "acro not up to level." My guess would be 0.10. This is because the top level 8s will do BHS + BHS or similar, a standing tuck or press mount, and then a round-off + full dismount.

 

[fuzi]

So the standard BHS-BHS series RO-Back pike dismount would get a deduction b/c there isn't an additional acro element? Or since the dismount is in series do they not need a stand-alone acro element?

Yes, even the BHS + BHS series and RO + back pike routine would be considered "not up to acro level" under the new recommendations. To alleviate this, a gymnast should add one more acro element, which can be an acrobatic mount (press HS, jump forward roll on). The ideal level 8 routine would be B + B flight series, a dismount combo, and an additional acro.

 

[fuzi]

If this is true it explains why my DDs beam scores have been lower than her L7 scores for similarly executed routines - the above is all she is doing as far as acro in her routine. I honestly do not think our coaches are aware that they could get deducted for not having more acro than this - as gym, our policy is always to minimize skills while meeting requirements, so maybe the lack of clarity from the USAG is hurting us here. On floor our girls only do 2 passes, so I'm wondering about that too.

Once gymnasts get to level 8, coaches need to consider the composition deductions. For example, it's a 0.10 deduction if a gymnast has more than 2 pivot turns in her routine. By level 8, I am sure that every single girl can turn around some other way, and yet, it's amazing how many routines have 3 or 4 pivot turns.

That said, the compositional deductions are relatively small in the big picture. I know from the coaching side, we first make sure out kids can meet the special requirement and skill requirements. Once they are doing that, and scoring high 8s/low 9s, then we worry about if we can make little upgrades or tweaks to prevent compositional deductions. But when they are a new level 8 and we just want to make the freaking series on beam or flip the vault, it's not the priority.

 

[kayjaybe]

So would this routine get a deduction?

- switch leap into some other sort of jumps (which I don't know the name of - she does the switch leap, then a straight jump up then another split jump all together right after each other)
- Full turn
- Cartwheel (to satisfy the need for a side element)
- BHS - BHS - into a layout dismount

Her routine seems quite short and she scored a 9.1 with it at a recent meet, which was pretty good because she had a big wobble on her full turn, a small step on her landing, and a pretty big delay going into her BHS-BHS-dismount. Plus I'm sure she had other small deductions in there, too. So wondering if she could also be getting a deduction for not up to level. (She was trying to make it a 1.5 turn instead of a full turn. Not sure how much that would help, but she ended up taking it out because she was always falling on it.)

Also, how much can they take off for the delay going into her BHS-BHS dismount? She held for at least 5 seconds (maybe 10....it felt like forever!) but didn't go over time.

 

[ladybird]

Yes, even the BHS + BHS series and RO + back pike routine would be considered "not up to acro level" under the new recommendations. To alleviate this, a gymnast should add one more acro element, which can be an acrobatic mount (press HS, jump forward roll on). The ideal level 8 routine would be B + B flight series, a dismount combo, and an additional acro.

Lots of great info! Can you elaborate a little more on the acrobatic mount? Is the press HS mount in combo with the jump forward roll or is it two separate mounts that can fulfill that extra acro by themselves. I am having trouble picturing it if it is a combo thing.

 

[fuzi]

So the standard BHS-BHS series RO-Back pike dismount would get a deduction b/c there isn't an additional acro element? Or since the dismount is in series do they not need a stand-alone acro element?

Lots of great info! Can you elaborate a little more on the acrobatic mount? Is the press HS mount in combo with the jump forward roll or is it two separate mounts that can fulfill that extra acro by themselves. I am having trouble picturing it if it is a combo thing.

I'm sorry, I was just giving examples of mounts that would count as acro skills. A press handstand counts as an acro skill. A jump to forward roll counts as an acro skill. Swing your leg over to sit on the beam in a straddle counts as a nothing. Sorry to confuse.

 

[ladybird]

No, it was just me reading too much into it

My dd is on the cusp of level 8 and all these things are so very good to know. She wants a press handstand mount and now she has a really good reason to put it in!

 

[fuzi]

So would this routine get a deduction?

- switch leap into some other sort of jumps (which I don't know the name of - she does the switch leap, then a straight jump up then another split jump all together right after each other)
- Full turn
- Cartwheel (to satisfy the need for a side element)
- BHS - BHS - into a layout dismount

Her routine seems quite short and she scored a 9.1 with it at a recent meet, which was pretty good because she had a big wobble on her full turn, a small step on her landing, and a pretty big delay going into her BHS-BHS-dismount. Plus I'm sure she had other small deductions in there, too. So wondering if she could also be getting a deduction for not up to level. (She was trying to make it a 1.5 turn instead of a full turn. Not sure how much that would help, but she ended up taking it out because she was always falling on it.)

Also, how much can they take off for the delay going into her BHS-BHS dismount? She held for at least 5 seconds (maybe 10....it felt like forever!) but didn't go over time.

Let's break this routine down a little:
Acro skills:
Cartwheel (A)
BHS + BHS + layout dismount (B + B + A)
Dance skills:
Full turn (A)
Switch leap + straight jump + split jump (C which counts as B in level 8 + A + B)

She has her 4 As and her 4 Bs. She has all the special requirements: series, full turn, split leap or jump, A dismount.

Under the new recommendations, I would probably take 0.05 in "acro up to level." She has an additional acro skill (the CW) and it's cool that her series goes into her dismount. Since some gymnast will have a standing tuck or an extra "B" skill like front handspring, I think an 0.05 would be fair here.
Her routine is balanced in terms of dance and acro, with equal number of skills and equal difficulty, so no issue there.

There is a 0.2 overall deduction for the "tempo" of the routine, which might be applied if she had lots of stops, as well as a specific 0.1 for a "concentration pause" before an element. If she stopped for more than a second before the BHS series, she would have lost that 0.1.

 

[kayjaybe]

Thanks so much for the analysis! I'm sure she can live with the .05 (or even .1) deduction for level. I was just hoping she wasn't getting dinged for .3. And the pause....a .1 is a heck of a lot better than a .5 for a fall! She had no other big stops in the routine. Just the BIG pause before the dismount.

She has been struggling with her flight since....the beginning of time....so I was VERY happy with her performance and score.

 

[GymCMLA]

thank you for posting this bolded part. (so I don't stress about her lack of additional acro skill or her 2 skill leap series)

Once gymnasts get to level 8, coaches need to consider the composition deductions. For example, it's a 0.10 deduction if a gymnast has more than 2 pivot turns in her routine. By level 8, I am sure that every single girl can turn around some other way, and yet, it's amazing how many routines have 3 or 4 pivot turns.

That said, the compositional deductions are relatively small in the big picture. I know from the coaching side, we first make sure out kids can meet the special requirement and skill requirements. Once they are doing that, and scoring high 8s/low 9s, then we worry about if we can make little upgrades or tweaks to prevent compositional deductions. But when they are a new level 8 and we just want to make the freaking series on beam or flip the vault, it's not the priority.

 

[UnoMas]

Here is what I found. I am not a judge (HA) but I would think she would get.2 deduction for "acro elements not up to competitive level." I thought she had to split jumps, which might be a composition deduction. And I agree her switch leap might not have been to 180. I am perplexed why our girls and most I see do a standing back tuck...
Composition (LEVEL 8 ONLY)
Missing Acro elements bwd & fwd or swd each .10
- If only in dismount .05
Spatially - insuff. use of entire beam .10
Insufficient distribution of elements .10
-Dmt. a single ele. of min. req. difficulty for Lev. .05
Insufficient level changes .10
Failure to show movement/choreography
in diff. directions (fwd/swd/bwd) .10
More than 2 pivot (str. leg ½ turns) throughout exercise .10
More than 2 dance elements of the same shape
(tuck/wolf or straddle) each type .10 .10
More than 1 leap/jump to front support each .10
Acro elements not up to competitive level .20
Lack of balance between acro & dance elements .20
Lack of dance series (min. of 2 elements from Gr. 1, 2, or 3) .20
More than one element before mount .20

I'm pretty sure my DD would be starting out of a zero if they took all these on her, and they probably could ! Wow!