WAG Long post- CGM and kicking out of program?

[CoachMeg]

I'll say it again. Kids are sponges. This is preteam, right? Not even Level 3?

Pre-team, yes. However we had our testing for level 3 this past weekend so now many of them are on team. Understand one thing in gymnastics, not every gym works the same way. So before you reply, "why are pre-teamers working ro-bhs?! Our gym is only working strength and shapes!" understand that some gyms want and work on different things. We are a fairly new gym, but have been extremely successful. With only being open two years, we have already had 10 state champions, many being compulsories. We want our pre-team girls to have 80% of skills prior to moving up so that the summer can be dedicated to perfecting the skills, routines, and strength. We have found that this process leads to the most success during the season.

 

[samadams]

I'll say it again. Kids are sponges. This is preteam, right? Not even Level 3?

That's right kids are sponges and suzie is soaking up a lot of her problems from her home life. Why are coaches , teachers, etc expected to correct problems that parents create?

 

[profmom]

Any parent of a ten year old who (meaning the parent here) can be brought to public tears, tantrums at desk staff, and personal attacks on paid coaching professionals because of dissatisfaction about the training of said ten year old needs to step back and examine her/his level of investment in that child's sport. The issues go way beyond whether or not Coachmeg enjoys coaching Suzie or if Suzie realizes she is not Coachmeg's most beloved preteamer. And the HC needs to realize this and deal with it.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I know all gyms are different. What I said was " At our gym it would be really odd for preteam to be working ro-BHS-BHS." I did not say why are pre-teamers working ro-bhs?!

Are you by any chance a younger/newer coach? What qualities did the other coach see in this child that they placed them on the preteam group? What I am trying to say is that this kid and parent are picking up on your frustration and negativity, and from your post it sounds like it was there from the first few weeks. Are you really saying you haven't felt all along that you didn't want this kid in your group? If you felt this way, it is very, very likely that this child picked up on it immediately.

It's not just this child that is getting evaluated by the owner of the gym. How you handle this situation and take up this challenge, well he will notice. Is it an opportunity or just a problem? I have sure had some pain in the #$! customers over the years. I have learned the most over the years is how I respond to the worst ones always comes back to reflect on me more than how I respond to the easy ones.

 

[Midwestmommy]

There are two sides to every situation, folks. And reality usually lies somewhere in the middle. I need to remind myself of this at times as much as the next person. Coach Meg, you are reacting to what I am saying really defensively, but there could maybe be another way to take some of it...

 

[profmom]

But a gym is not just a business. It is an educational facility. The more appropriate analogy is the kid who enrolls in Spanish II without having competence in Spanish I. If you're the teacher, do you let the kid keep struggling and failing, or do you suggest that the child drop back to a level that is developmentally appropriate? And if you get pushback on your suggestion, do you just shrug your shoulders, teach the ones who are at the right level, and figure the way behind one will drop out eventually in frustration? Or do you do the responsible thing and press harder for a more appropriate placement? As someone in a supervisory capacity, I'd prefer not to have resources expended on trying to get one person who's way far behind up to speed, and I would notice and approve of the educator who recognizes what constitutes an unbridgeable gap.

I am guessing that at least some of Suzie's behavioral issues stem from her capacity to recognize that she's wrestling above her weight class here. A little bit of challenge is great and can be inspiring. An insurmountable challenge is demoralizing. So -- is the challenge tough but manageable for Suzie? Or is it insurmountable?

 

[wallinbl]

There are two sides to every situation, folks. And reality usually lies somewhere in the middle. I need to remind myself of this at times as much as the next person. Coach Meg, you are reacting to what I am saying really defensively, but there could maybe be another way to take some of it...

I'm impartial here, but your post that said you were going to play devil's advocate nearly had me getting defensive. I get what you're trying to contribute, but I'm not at all surprised it triggered a defensive response. Regardless of any perception of 'liking' the kid, there shouldn't be a skill gap that large within a group.

@profmom is right - this isn't much different from school, where a kid is in a class they're not ready to handle. It's not good for the kid, it's not good for the other kids, and the teacher is stuck in a position where s/he can't give anyone what they need.

 

[2G1B]

OK, honestly, I see both sides of this. Reading the original post I did think, "this is pre team????" Does your gym not compete until level 4? How do you get those pre team girls to those skills if they have to be there to start pre team? Maybe you should have different levels of pre team? One for girls who have potential; but need to work on things for about a year and one for girls who are already at basically level 3+ skills.

I know that you say that you don't dislike this kid; but it really seems that you are not at all fond of her. That happens. It has happened to my younger DD a few times (she is definitely the type if6 personality that can lead to people either loving her or finding her very frustrating). Luckily for her, she has been in groups where she had more than one coach and while there was a coach who it was obvious didn't care for her and didn't think that DD could handle the placement and skills, she has always had another coach who totally thought that she COULD and that positive coach made it where DD could build her confidence and her strength.

For me, your saying that you wouldn't recommend mom getting the kid a *pull up* bar says something to how little confidence you have in the kid. Sure, she might not be able to do pull ups at first; but I bet with mom helping her that she could start with assisted ones and work her way up. She needs to do stuff like that to build up her strength.

On the flip side, it does sound like she wasn't placed well. In my "mom" opinion it sounds crazy that preteam is the level that your preteam is. I really would look at the set up if I were a coach in your gym as it seems different than any of the gyms I have ever been around, normally there is a protean level for kids who show potential; but the kids are still working on building strength and learning skills. As a coach, i imagine that it would be frustrating to end up with kids with such a variety of skill levels trying to work together (though not impossible - my DDs are at a small gym. Older DD is in the "optionals group" she is working. Mostly level 6/7 skills; but works in a group with girls who have just finished level 8 and will be moving to level 9 now. The coach is able to have the stations where each girl is working something slightly different. Like the level 9 kids when their spotted time on bars is up are working releases; but when my DD gets up there she is working cast handstands and other skills at her level.)

The mom certainly seems to be an issue. The lying should be called out. She also needs the HC to sit her down and explain what is needed to move from pre team to team, skills, strength, and attitude. It tus highly unlikely that even if her DD had done those two privates that they would have been enough to make a huge difference. The kid simply needs more time in pre team to build strength and get skills.

 

[CoachMeg]

@Midwestmommy The coach that evaluated Suzie was brand new to our gym at the time and put her on pre-team because we had some empty slots in the class (not how things should be done). Suzie's mother showed interest, and the other coach noticed that the class was not full (we have 16 spaces on pre-team and there were only about 10 in the group when he started).

The coach has been talked to since then about following the skill list needed to be put on pre-team. Suzie did not meet the requirements. Now all evaluations have to go through me to avoid future cases such as this. HC has not dealt with it, not because he does not agree with me, but because he's not sure how to break the news that Suzie was placed on pre-team incorrectly. Also Suzie's mother does not know how to take "no" for an answer.

Like @profmom explained, this is a learning/teaching facility. Suzie did not meet the prerequisite skills to be on pre-team, so she has been trying to play catch-up this entire time. I do not want any child do leave gymnastics with a bad taste about the experience. Unfortunately, I can't see this going any other way. And that's truly unfortunate. I have expressed my desire for Suzie to drop back a level and gain more experience with the sport and then be re-evaluated in the future; however, nothing got done about it. And unfortunately I do not have the authority to ask someone to leave a "team group" (pre-team is considered team) without the HC. HC does not want to deal with the mother and is basically waiting for Suzie to weed herself out of the group. Not good at all. Now we have a kid who is not up to speed skill wise, demonstrates behavioral issues (probably from a lack of confidence and frustration), and an angry mother who controls every aspect of her child's life (homeschool, beauty pageants, sports, etc). And unfortunately since I coach the class, this falls back on me and I'm the one to blame. This post was not a post to slam Suzie or her gymnastics ability, it was a post to say "This is what happened, this is where we are, what is your advice for the next step?" Because obviously things were not done the right way. Everyone in the situation, including me, is at fault. I realize that. I'm not here to point figures, I'm here to ask for advice on how to deal with the situation. Suzie is not ready for the group and at this point the family has caused too many problems.

 

[CoachMeg]

Our pre-team requirements are:

Vault
- run full speed down the runway with acceleration (Suzie can not do due to her feet turning in on every step)
- straight jump up to Level 3 resi pit mat (Suzie can not do)

Bars
- pull over (Suzie can not do)
- 3 casts in row
- back hip circle (Suzie can not do)

Beam
- walk on medium/high beam without fear forwards, backwards, and sideways
- straight jump (Suzie can not do without falling off)
- handstand on low-medium beam returning to lunge : does not have to be vertical (Suzie can not do)

Floor
- vertical handstand
- cartwheel returning to lunge
- round off with rebound (Suzie can not do)
- backbend from stand (Suzie can no do)
- bridge with straight arms holding for 5 seconds
- bridge kick over (Suzie can not do)

Flexibility
- good leg split 5 inches from floor
- pike stretch with nose 5 inches from knees

Strength
- rope climb half way (Suzie can not do)
- 10 v-ups correct form (Suzie can not do)
- plank hold 30 seconds with correct form (Suzie can not do)

I do not think any of that is unreasonable to get into pre-team? Do you?
That said, most of our pre-teamers are in the program for 1 year before moving to team. Some a little less, some a little more. However, if all the kids can at least do that ^^, it not only makes our job easier as coaches, but it allows us to work on harder skills as a group. That is why most of them now have ro-bhs a couple even have ro-bhs-bhs. Only one of them came in already being able to do that (she was a tumbler-but lacked beam/bar skills).

Btw, I coach beam and floor...which is why I'm referencing so much to tumbling skills.

Suzie did not have those skills when she joined. The mother pushed and pushed and our newbie coach gave in.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Someone thought the kid had potential. Sounds like within the first few weeks the you didn't want them there are started trying to get them kicked off. All I am saying is that the kid (and probably the parent) picked up on that and it likely made the situation worse not better.

Like I said, hey I have had some difficult clients over the years. How I react and handle those situations always figured more prominantly in perfomance reviews than how I handled the easier/profitable ones. And the coworker who is abrasive and obnoxious? Yep, be careful of that snake in the grass too. They will always show up more than the twelve folks you have strong relationships with. That's kind of the way the cookie crumbles. Was it unfair and ticked me off sometimes? Oh yeah.

Like I said, the worst position a parent can be in is having a kid on a team being coached by a person they feel wants them to fail to prove a point. And a kid with a dream being on a team with a coach who doesn't want them there and is more focused on getting them off the group than giving them some things to work on to try to get where they need to be. Try to drum up a little empathy if you can put yourself in their shoes.

You poopooed my idea of talking to them about strength concerns and giving them some homework, then reevaluating in a few months. They might surprise you if you try it. Or they might not make the effort. What does that do? Then it is their decision to not be on the preteam, you are putting it in their hands! Heck you have tried complaining and it didn't work, right? Part of the tricks of the trade for skilled negotiaters--the other party is invested and actually feel they were part of the decision.... Saves face, feels fairer, goes over better all around... And hey you might be surprised at their progress, and guess who that reflects well on? You! Win, win. Tricky, but it can be done more often than you think.

Also, whoever you are saying made the mistake of putting them on preteam..... Remember, that is criticizing them too. That is different than...hey, not every kids makes it. We gave them some extra work to get there and their heart wasn't in it. See the difference in the criticism of the person who put them on the team. Stepping on toes doesn't usually get you too far. We need to be more strategic (think of it as selfish) in the workplace than we can be at home or with our friends.

 

[Ali'sMom]

@CoachMeg - I don't have a whole lot of input here, as our gym handles things like yours is supposed to - no moving up until the skills are mostly there. I'm sorry HC won't deal with Suzie's mom and explain that the Suzie should be a level lower until she gains her skills for your pre-team.
Hopefully HC will address it with the mom, and hopefully (possibly???) it will be taken well, and she will "get" that another year in the level before pre-team could be very beneficial for Suzie.

 

[gymdog]

Okay, well, there are a few things going on here:

1. If you continue to coach preteam, despite your best efforts, there are going to be other Suzie's. It might not be this dramatic, but it's gonna happen. No matter how you try to structure evals, there's always a surprise Suzie popping up here and there. I am a developmental coach; I have taught many Suzies that were really someone else's problem. I have been frustrated, I have enjoyed it, I have loved the kids and they have been the ones who have taught me the most about gymnastics in some ways (I was a high level gymnast who was able to do most of the skills you listed the first week I went to a gymnastics class. Doing gymnastics didn't teach me a lot about teaching gymnastics).

Right now I have one in level 3. She really wanted to do it, okay. Prior to starting level 3 there are honestly probably a few things on your preteam list she couldn't do, and she literally could not do any progressions for the harder level 3 skills like mills circles or front hips or kips. I mean, not even spotted PROGRESSIONS, I am not talking about even the whole skill. Fast forward 9 months, competed somewhat successfully although points below the rest of my team who don't score below mid 36. Has all 3 skills, even a kip. I am proud of her. Not everyone can be the best. If a child wants to do it, they should.

2. This brings me to point 2. If the child doesn't like or want to do gymnastics, there is going to be a problem no matter how many pull ups or rope climbs they can do. It sounds like this may be a problem with Suzie. There are likely some developmental issues, but if Suzie doesn't want to climb the rope and isn't interested in getting better, it may be that she doesn't lack strength to that extent but just does that to get out of it. I have no problem working with a child like this. But I definitely agree that a group where kids are doing BHS is probably not the best or safest place for them. When you work with a child like this, you need to find their currency and try to get them to buy in. This is difficult if you don't have training or experience to recognize and redirect these behaviors. I feel for many gyms and coaches on that. Unfortunately there is a lack of training out there, but yet people want to mainstream their children (fair) and many doctors recommend gymnastics for kids with special needs. This really burdens coaches who aren't being supported by their management and don't have any training. It is easy to blame from the sidelines but that is just the way it is, dealing with these behaviors takes training and experience. This is also a huge safety issues.

3. This brings us to a third and final point. Whenever discussing things like this with parents, which the owner should do, you make the conversation about safety primarily. You can also bring up emotional well being, but it has to be a more minor point because they will just argue that their child doesn't care or whatever. They can't rationally argue with their child being put in danger of injury. If they try to, it is easier to redirect the conversation with "I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that you don't care if Suzie gets injured?" Making it about anything other than safety gives them too much room to argue. You need to clearly and concisely draw the line on safety and keep the conversation focused there with specific examples about why whatever is the problem is a safety issue. This is where you represent yourself as a gymnastics professional and your gym as following industry standards in a professional sport. This is not the beauty pageant world and you need to appeal to your authority by laying down USAG regulations from the start. See, Suzie's mom, it's out of our hands. The USAG rules and policies say that children must pass the skills by a skill evaluator for level 3 and we must certify they are ready to compete. These are not our policies, these are the industry standards that prevent injury.

 

[GymCMLA]

My background is medical much mor ethan gymnastics, but her "turn in" sounds like a combo of femoral anteversion, tibial torsion +/- some hindfoot or forefoot varus deformity. It also sounds like she may have some sensory struggles or hypotonia playing a role in her performance and behavior. Reading the post, I also wonder about an ASD (like asperger's) whihc may be why some of her traits seem younger than her chronological age.

Is there a role for homework for the whole group, but tailored sheets for each kid - like working on planks racing mom vs kid or sibs? (My 3 yo can plank longer than me on most days, but it is fun for all of us to race, gymmie oDD obviously beats us all by decades, but it is still fun and helps my TnT DSs work on core.
Also, if the opportunity presets itself, she may benefit from OT or PT (or both) Gym is a great place for these kids to work on these OT struggles, but I know it would be hard to bring it up as a coach (where as her ped I could).
I homeschool, so I'm not downing that choice, but maybe she does homeschool because she sees her daughters sensory struggles or quirks that are common in asperger's and see's home as a way to "protect" her and avoid the objectivity of a diagnosis.

I feel for your situation. HC knows how you feel about her inappropriate placement on pre-team. SO I think you need to relinquish that battle for now. And focus on making her stations that she can do. The pre-drills for what she is missing. (much like my yoga teacher shows us the pose and then 2 options to make it easier or harder if we can).
I would also try to make move up's to L3 very objective with a progress report on each skill, using mastered, emerging or preparing to learn. (opposed to yes/no has it/doesn't)

I don't know if any of this helps, but it may at least provide a non-gymmie prespective on what struggles she may have. I encourage everyone (parents, teachers, coaches) to read the out of sync child and/or raising your sensory smart child. It gave me great insight into myself and my kids and why we behave like we do and what causes our centered and unsettled feelings.

 

[Seeker]

Sounds like within the first few weeks the you didn't want them there are started trying to get them kicked off.

Wow....lots of negative assumptions being made there. Jumping to these kinds of conclusions doesn't really help anyone. While you make some good points after that, the delivery is in such a thorny package, my guess is it won't be very well received. Wow.

See gymdog's post for reference...lots of info and advice offered; no insults or accusations.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I didn't jump to that conclusion. The original poster was very honest and up front about that in her first post. Wow back atcha

Even though my first thought was to go to the parents and tell them that this class was just not working out, it is not my place and unfortunately I do not have the authority to do that. So, I brought it up during our coach's meetings......4 times. FOUR TIMES

 

[Seeker]

just saying...you can always catch more flies with honey.

 

[Midwestmommy]

just saying...you can always catch more flies with honey.

Totally agree with you on that!

 

[anothergymmom]

Just want to chime in to say that Gym Claire o3's post expresses (with more expertise!) what I was thinking as I read. The combination of extreme weakness (hypotonia) and the emotional volatility/seeming younger than chronological age sounds a lot like ASD spectrum. We have a couple of kids with similar issues in our extended family. I know it is very difficult to handle; but remember, it is much more difficult for the kid! Of course we can't make an online diagnosis. But, if this is the case, I fear the child will only encounter more frustration with gym. It is a very tough situation. If, however (or maybe even if it is) there is not a sensory/developmental/ASD issue, it seems you can do no better than heed gymdog's spot on words. If you just keep showing the concrete evidence with respect to skills/strength and emphasize safety, maybe the child will persist (in preteam) and really learn something and get some confidence and focus out of the sport.

The mom seems like a big problem, but that is a different matter!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't know if there are any parents from my gym that have accounts on here so I'll try to keep this as anonymous and broad as possible (crossing fingers).

So...this situation started a few months ago. I coach pre-team and compulsory levels with another coach (we split events) and one day back in winter, he tested a 1o year old girl (let's call her Suzie) and put her in our pre-team group. Let's just say, after Suzie got WRONGLY placed in pre-team, all evaluations now have to go through ME first. Yes, it was that bad.

Suzie was SO behind skill wise, I wanted to pull my hair out the first couple of weeks. Most of our pre-team girls have ro-bhs by themselves on the floor, rod floor, or the tumble trak. Or at the very least, a standing bhs on trampoline. Well Suzie couldn't even do a round-off. I'm not exaggerating. Every time she did one, she would completely pike down and fall on her butt. Not only that, but Suzie could not even run very well as her feet completely turned in with every step (a beam coach's nightmare!!!).

Even though my first thought was to go to the parents and tell them that this class was just not working out, it is not my place and unfortunately I do not have the authority to do that. So, I brought it up during our coach's meetings......4 times. FOUR TIMES. Yet nothing was done about it. I simply explained that Suzie was not able to keep up with the rest of the pre-team group and I had to create stations JUST for her because she could not keep up with what the other girls were doing. Suzie was so weak that she could not even hold onto the rope. I'm not even talking about climbing to the top or half way or even one step, Suzie could literally NOT hold onto the rope without collapsing to the ground. Like I said, I brought it up at every meeting we had and the HC would just say "Yes I need to talk to her mom." Did he ever? No. I even emailed him once to remind him. Did he then? No. I even ASKED if I could talk to her mom. His response? "I don't think it would look very good if I wasn't the one that did it. I'll give her a call tomorrow." Did he? No.

You can see the frustration....
And like I explained in the meetings, I have absolutely NO problem teaching kids at this skill level. It is not that I don't think she's talented or I don't think she has a future in gymnastics. It is simply that as a coach, it is so difficult and stressful to teach a group of girls with such vast skill levels. I have 5 girls doing ro-bhs, 3 girls trying ro-bhs-bhs, and then Suzie who can't do a roundoff. It's frustrating to say the least! (Side note, I never ONCE took my frustration out on Suzie. The girl can be a brat, starting verbal fights with the other girls or throwing crying temper tantrums if she didn't get the pick her station first...she's 10....and once hid behind a stack of leotards crying because her mom was not there to watch her practice). I did, however, discipline her for her behavior. But I never once made her feel bad about being behind the group.

Fast forward to last weekend level 3 tryouts. ALL our pre-team girls try out and are evaluated by ALL team coaches. Me and the other compulsory coach warm the girls up and organize the try-out, but the optional coaches judge their skills so that it is fairly objective (they don't coach them often or even at all, so they don't know what they look like during practice or any other factors other than the skills they show them during testing). They test every level 3 skill and are scored on a 1-3 basis:
1= cannot perform
2= can perform but has some form breaks
3= can perform very well

At the end we add up all their points and divide it by the number of skills- they have to hit 80% or higher to move up to level 3.

Of course with every try out there will be some upset parents with the kids who did not make it. I get that. Most parents were very understanding and we even said we would host another tryout in July for those that show big improvements over the summer.

Well......as you can probably guess by the title of this post, Suzie's mother was NOT happy. Suzie scored a 37%...which was probably even a little too nice considering you were at least given a 1 on everything even if you couldn't do the skills, not a 0. Suzie's mom was crying (yes crying) to our front desk office worker and shouting that I don't push her as hard as the other girls and I don't see any potential in Suzie. She told the front desk worker that she wants to have a meeting with the owners to discuss my coaching capabilities (HA!). The part that makes me most mad is that she flat out LIED saying that I purposefully did not show up to the 2 privates that she scheduled with me because I did not want to coach her daughter. That is a complete and total LIE. Suzie's mom cancelled BOTH privates herself because Suzie was sick on both of them. Luckily I have both texts sent from the mother to prove she was lying. Even the front desk worker knows it was a lie because she handles all privates.

And as if this wasn't enough, Suzie misses every Saturday practice for beauty pageants.

I guess I'm asking, what would you do? Most of the other coaches that I have talked to agree that the family is all drama.

What is your process on asking someone to leave your pre-team/team program?


(thank you if you stuck around and read this entire thing )

bye, bye Suzie's mom....