WAG Long post- CGM and kicking out of program?

[wallinbl]

Not for nothing, but the title of the thread says it all. The girl didn't make it onto level 3, so that's not even a part of the conversation really. The OP wants the girl off the preteam, period. OP stated that at her gym preteam counts as team. It's not a matter of more time or objective judging- she wants her gone, i.e. to be someone else's problem. At least that was my impression.

Your spin on it is "someone else's problem". Another spin on it is "in a class where she can thrive".

Would it seem awesome if my DD could train with Marta and the elites? Sure, but it wouldn't make any sense because she's not ready for that, so it wouldn't do anyone any good. Would Marta be wrong to want my DD back in a club gym with girls her level? No, she'd be dead right about wanting that. (The difference here being that Marta can make that happen)

 

[coachmolly]

Coaching pre-team/developmental levels always carries the risks of getting kids who don't quite belong and figuring out what to do with them- do you keep them in that class indefinitely until they catch up or see themselves out? Do you speak honestly with the parent about their child's future in competitive gym? As I mentioned before, I work at a low intensity gym, so I figure I can just keep them in the group and move them along at their own pace. However, I think the OP is at a much more competitive gym with high expectations for their competitive groups and likely a lot of competition to get onto the team which puts her in a much trickier position. I am guessing your gym does not have Xcel or a rec. team you can be moving this girl towards? That sounds like it could be a better fit given the fact that she does have other commitments outside of the gym- allowing her to work around her weaknesses and still compete.
I think working towards finding a class that best fits this child's needs- whether it be remaining in the pre-team group or moving to another one- is really in the child's best interests. Kids know when they are struggling and lagging behind the other kids. Some kids thrive in this setting and catch up quickly, but others just get beaten down by it. How is the child coping with the class? Did she seem upset with her performance at the evaluation? Or is she content with where she is?

 

[MILgymFAM]

Your spin on it is "someone else's problem". Another spin on it is "in a class where she can thrive".

Would it seem awesome if my DD could train with Marta and the elites? Sure, but it wouldn't make any sense because she's not ready for that, so it wouldn't do anyone any good. Would Marta be wrong to want my DD back in a club gym with girls her level? No, she'd be dead right about wanting that. (The difference here being that Marta can make that happen)

I think that by exaggerating the point so grandly, it's lost. Preteam is the place to develop skills needed to even be considered for team. To me, that's the place for anyone who wants a shot at team, for as long as they are willing to keep trying. It doesn't sound as though there is a different preteam level or xcel available, so this is it. I guess I also do not understand the hardship of having girls training different skills. This is has been basically the norm at every gym we have attended, and no one has seemed harmed. I think I just come from the opposite perspective. My DDs (both of them) actually train with groups above their skill level. Neither they nor I had anything to do with their placements. They were placed into groups based on effort, possibly potential, and also based on where coaches were hoping to get them in the near future. Neither feels any negative effects of being behind simply because their coaches push them while teaching to each girls individual ability. One of my DDs actually trains with kids who are a full 3 levels above her, and the other trains with girls she almost certainly cannot compete with in the coming season. It's ok as long as it's handled properly. If it weren't, I'd be the first one requesting they train with a lower group.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

MILgymFAM

I get what you are saying. But I think as the kids get more skills and maturity its easier to train at different levels. They are more capable of training at their own pace.

At our gym, Level 5 and up train together (yes 5 to 9 or 10) Smaller amount of kids. They are older. Are more capable of doing their drills and conditioning independently. And they all have the basics down. Everyone practices their own tumbling run, but they are focused.

At a younger level I think they need to be more similarly grouped. Including their ability to focus. They are still getting the basics. If someone is that far behind they need to be elsewhere. And sometimes elsewhere might even be a different activity.

 

[MILgymFAM]

MILgymFAM

I get what you are saying. But I think as the kids get more skills and maturity its easier to train at different levels. They are more capable of training at their own pace.

At our gym, Level 5 and up train together (yes 5 to 9 or 10) Smaller amount of kids. They are older. Are more capable of doing their drills and conditioning independently. And they all have the basics down. Everyone practices their own tumbling run, but they are focused.

At a younger level I think they need to be more similarly grouped. Including their ability to focus. They are still getting the basics. If someone is that far behind they need to be elsewhere. And sometimes elsewhere might even be a different activity.

Maturity, I will grant you. Yes, more mature kids can handle more independence. I am talking about lower levels though. My DD, when she would have basically been considered an L1 (minimums for xcel bronze) did train with L6s. Clearly there were some major modifications. It worked. There were minimum standards though, for xcel and preteam (though they were different from each other), which is why my other DD was never allowed onto team track in any fashion at that gym. She simply lacked the required upper body strength. I do firmly believe had she been given the chance (and the hours and the conditioning) she could have gained the strength. Maybe this girl will never cross the threshold for L3. She will try and try, or she will decide not to try any longer, and that is enough of a natural selection process, IMO. Maybe gym isn't the sport for her. Who knows. That should be a family decision. We were told, in a rather blunt manner, that artistic wasn't the sport for my younger DD- and she picked up the pieces of her broken heart and took them to T&T, where she has done well, but I know that she would have rather have had a shot in artistic.

 

[lhmom]

There was a girl on DD's team who was placed from the rec class straight to team by one of the coaches. The HC probably should have put her on pre-team but didn't. The girl was older and the HC really gave her a chance to try and catch up. After a year or so, it became painfully obvious that it was not going to happen (she was fearful about learning new skills on top of struggling with form). The HC finally spoke with the mom after this girl repeated level 4 (old) with very little improvement. In practice, this girl was also refusing to try new skills as well. The mom was very reasonable about it-she knew her daughter's personality well and realized that competitive gymnastics was probably not the right sport for her. As for the OP- I would maybe not say leave the pre-team program but maybe do the program for another year? That way when this happens again at next year's tryouts, you will be able to say that she was given more than enough opportunity to catch up and that maybe competitive gymnastics is not a good fit?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Maturity, I will grant you. Yes, more mature kids can handle more independence. I am talking about lower levels though. My DD, when she would have basically been considered an L1 (minimums for xcel bronze) did train with L6s. Clearly there were some major modifications. It worked. .

If there were major modifications they weren't training together. They were training at the same time, but not exactly together.

 

[MILgymFAM]

If there were major modifications they weren't training together. They were training at the same time, but not exactly together.

Well, then no team we have been with has trained together. Mixed levels, modifications, and stations have been the norm for us. Just a bunch of girls training at the same time through five gyms (combined) so far.. Obviously this is debatable ad naseum, so I will step back. I just think it's important to see multiple perspectives. I have made my point the best that I can, I think, so anything past now will just be argumentative on my part.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Our preteam has various skill abilities too, I checked them out for about a half hour last night thinking about this post. The little ones sure are cute! Haven't watched that group for a while, and it was fun to be reminded.... Yes all gyms are different. All coaches are too. My daughter has had a few she has adored, a bunch she has liked, and one just one who she can't stand. Yes, that was the one that didn't believe she would go anywhere in this sport and told me that, you know just doing us the big favor of telling us she should try soccer or something else when she was still very very young. She never said that to my daughter, but you bet she knew. My daughter and a few others were very aware they weren't her favorites and got the brunt of eye rolls (from an adult), lack of spotting, less attention. The most hurtful part was ignoring them, and treating them like she didn't want them there. To this day my daughter detests that woman. Only one of her "favorites" that year are still in gymnastics, but most of the group she treated poorly has stuck around. A very long time after I had heard mention of her name at all, my daughter was in the car after getting on podium that day, and blurted out "take that XXXX and stick it up your rear." I was pretty shocked. That coach's legacy with my daughter will always be that she can't stand her, and there is a little element flipping her the bird in her successes, apparently. Legacies come in all shapes and sizes.... Mostly though she was happy to meet her goals and make her current coach proud that day, thankfully.

 

[strawberries]

Or...you could give Suzie a glowing evaluation...that places Suzie (and her mom) squarely in Level 6....which is taught be HC

 

[CoachMeg]

I don't have "favorite" gymnasts and no, Suzie is not a gymnast that I "can't stand". Please stop drawing those conclusions when that is not at all what I posted. I have had some great advice, and I really thank those that took the extra time out of their day to put themselves in my situation and offer some feedback.

...I have also have seen a LOT of assumptions made and a lot of accusations. I do not thank you for those. Those of you making these accusations are assuming that I just hate Suzie and wish she wasn't my gymnast to deal with. That is not at all the case.

Here's the thing:
Suzie is in a class that she should not be in, mentally or physically. I have been trying to play catch-up with her while simultaneously preparing the other girls for level 3. If this was just a recreational class, I could handle it. But since these girls have been preparing for level 3, I have certain skills that I NEED to teach and progressions that I HAVE to follow. So that puts me in a sticky situation with Suzie who is not yet ready to work on these skills. So she gets stations to help her work on the skills she needs, while the others work on other things for level 3. I'm sure this is why Suzie's mom thinks I don't "push her as hard as the other girls" when in fact, she is not ready for what the other girls are doing.

For example, this would be like me trying to teach a 2nd grade class with one 1st grader in the room. My goal for all the students is to get them to 3rd grade, but the 1st grader still needs to learn everything that she missed from 2nd grade. So, I can either talk to the teachers and have her go back to 2nd grade where she will be successful and learn a lot more, or I can try and rush her through everything so that she can go onto 3rd grade with the rest of the class - but she'll be a very unsuccessful student in the long run.

The problem with Suzie is that I feel like I am having to rush through a LOT of progressions to just catch her up to the intensity of the rest of the group. There are SO many drills on hurdles and cartwheels and roundoffs that Suzie is missing out on, all because her mother wants her doing ro-bhs like everyone else in the group. My frustration is partly from the mother, but also partly from myself for not being able to coach this girl the correct way with the correct progressions. She is missing out on so much, and this could all be solved if she was put in a lower level group to perfect her basics.

 

[skschlag]

Our preteam has various skill abilities too, I checked them out for about a half hour last night thinking about this post. The little ones sure are cute! Haven't watched that group for a while, and it was fun to be reminded.... Yes all gyms are different. All coaches are too. My daughter has had a few she has adored, a bunch she has liked, and one just one who she can't stand. Yes, that was the one that didn't believe she would go anywhere in this sport and told me that, you know just doing us the big favor of telling us she should try soccer or something else when she was still very very young. She never said that to my daughter, but you bet she knew. My daughter and a few others were very aware they weren't her favorites and got the brunt of eye rolls (from an adult), lack of spotting, less attention. The most hurtful part was ignoring them, and treating them like she didn't want them there. To this day my daughter detests that woman. Only one of her "favorites" that year are still in gymnastics, but most of the group she treated poorly has stuck around. A very long time after I had heard mention of her name at all, my daughter was in the car after getting on podium that day, and blurted out "take that XXXX and stick it up your rear." I was pretty shocked. That coach's legacy with my daughter will always be that she can't stand her, and there is a little element flipping her the bird in her successes, apparently. Legacies come in all shapes and sizes.... Mostly though she was happy to meet her goals and make her current coach proud that day, thankfully.

I can see now why you would have some biases towards the coach aspect of this. I can't believe a coach would say that. But this is different. This coach is not saying she should move on to a new sport, just that she shouldbe in a class where she can be successful and learn the skills needed

op..I hope you can find a way to help her be successful in your class....

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Or...you could give Suzie a glowing evaluation...that places Suzie (and her mom) squarely in Level 6....which is taught be HC

ROFL

 

[GymRays]

I don't have "favorite" gymnasts and no, Suzie is not a gymnast that I "can't stand". Please stop drawing those conclusions when that is not at all what I posted. I have had some great advice, and I really thank those that took the extra time out of their day to put themselves in my situation and offer some feedback.

...I have also have seen a LOT of assumptions made and a lot of accusations. I do not thank you for those. Those of you making these accusations are assuming that I just hate Suzie and wish she wasn't my gymnast to deal with. That is not at all the case.

Here's the thing:
Suzie is in a class that she should not be in, mentally or physically. I have been trying to play catch-up with her while simultaneously preparing the other girls for level 3. If this was just a recreational class, I could handle it. But since these girls have been preparing for level 3, I have certain skills that I NEED to teach and progressions that I HAVE to follow. So that puts me in a sticky situation with Suzie who is not yet ready to work on these skills. So she gets stations to help her work on the skills she needs, while the others work on other things for level 3. I'm sure this is why Suzie's mom thinks I don't "push her as hard as the other girls" when in fact, she is not ready for what the other girls are doing.

For example, this would be like me trying to teach a 2nd grade class with one 1st grader in the room. My goal for all the students is to get them to 3rd grade, but the 1st grader still needs to learn everything that she missed from 2nd grade. So, I can either talk to the teachers and have her go back to 2nd grade where she will be successful and learn a lot more, or I can try and rush her through everything so that she can go onto 3rd grade with the rest of the class - but she'll be a very unsuccessful student in the long run.

The problem with Suzie is that I feel like I am having to rush through a LOT of progressions to just catch her up to the intensity of the rest of the group. There are SO many drills on hurdles and cartwheels and roundoffs that Suzie is missing out on, all because her mother wants her doing ro-bhs like everyone else in the group. My frustration is partly from the mother, but also partly from myself for not being able to coach this girl the correct way with the correct progressions. She is missing out on so much, and this could all be solved if she was put in a lower level group to perfect her basics.

I feel for you Coach Meg. I've been in similar situations. I had a gymnast that was put into my pre team/Xcel group last spring. She trained with us all summer, I did my best to teach her what she needed to learn for when meets began. Needless to say, she was not ready and she wasn't going to be ready. So the meet season started and she was unable to compete. Her mom was not a CGM, however she would ask every time a meet came up if her DD was going to it. I had to tell her no, she's not ready, she doesn't have enough skills to meet routine requirements. She didn't do any meets and in the end got moved to a rec class. She is much happier there and doing well.

I didn't have an issue with a CGM or a HC not having my back, but what would happen if you keep her in the group and when meet season comes around she didn't do meets cause she's not ready? Is not letting her compete and continue training an option? Maybe that would send a stronger message to HC and CGM. Or, dare I say.... let her go to the first meet......

If there isn't a way for you to make the call and move her, then do your best to accommodate and continue coaching her and her performance will speak for itself.

 

[Midwestmommy]

...I have also have seen a LOT of assumptions made and a lot of accusations. I do not thank you for those. Those of you making these accusations are assuming that I just hate Suzie and wish she wasn't my gymnast to deal with. That is not at all the case.

Just know that kids know when you don't want them there, they do. You did say you didn't want her in the group right away and brought it up at four staff meetings. You didn't say you tried for three months to help her build her strength and then decided you didn't want her in a group. You said she made you want to pull your hair out in the first few weeks. To me that said young coach/employee, needs to learn patience when crap like this lands on her lap (which someone else put there). It will happen again. It's an opportunity to lose or build credibility with your boss and coworkers every time.

Lots of my advice was actually trying to nudge you toward trying some new strategies with your bosses/coworkers. I have had years of being on and heading up teams in a work environment, and if you read back through my advice much of it was geared toward you as an employee not getting what you wanted from your boss, and trying to come up with some new tactics. I am not an "owner" so I can't function as dictator, it's always been as part of a team.

There is someone at your place of employment who put her on that group that you have called out publicly repeatedly by bringing it up over and over at staff meetings. Everyone hears everything at work that happends in staff meetings.

We can learn from what happens when we get in a tough spot at work, or not.....that's up to all of us when we get in these situations.. On the rare occasion you can change other people it always means the benefit of changing is more than the cost of not changing for them. They don't change because you prove how right you are by documenting the crap out of everything, it does not work that way in places of employment. You can on occasion force someone's hand that way, but you are taking a big gamble by "winning" that way and it might cost you. That's not to say not to document, you should , but that is not the way to influence people.

People only change when there is some benefit to them. So why isn't your boss taking action? What is his cost versus his benefit in backing you up on this one? It's going to happen again in some way or form because there are always a few in the bunch at work that or going to make things prickly. I did think to myself...hmmm as your boss. You keep calling out this situation about a particular kid in staff meetings over and over and it's not working. You are not getting the action and backup you need from your boss. Why? What can you do to be more effective. Heck, or you can just think I'm an idiot, you that you did everything right, this whole thing is the other person's fault, and carry on...

 

[happychaos]

Yes, that was the one that didn't believe she would go anywhere in this sport and told me that, you know just doing us the big favor of telling us she should try soccer or something else when she was still very very young. She never said that to my daughter, but you bet she knew. My daughter and a few others were very aware they weren't her favorites and got the brunt of eye rolls (from an adult), lack of spotting, less attention. The most hurtful part was ignoring them, and treating them like she didn't want them there. To this day my daughter detests that woman. Only one of her "favorites" that year are still in gymnastics, but most of the group she treated poorly has stuck around. .

I think our DD's must be at the same gym The eye rolls, sighs, ignoring, quickly turning the other way every time DD does something well....yeah. The worst part is that this experienced coach is training a new, young coach, and I can see the new coach starting to pick up some of these behaviors. Thankfully my DD is not the only girl who gets this "special" treatment, but it is just so wrong....

 

[wgagym]

OP I am sorry you have to deal with this. It is unfortunate that this child was placed in a level far beyond her capabilities.

Parents... If you don't coach you don't understand what a posistion this puts this coach in. She now has to try to plan two completely differnt lesson plans to keep this child moving forward however she has the whole group to consider as well. This is a huge safety issue. The HC agrees she should have never been placed thereto start but refuses to do anything about it. Unfortunately this places the liability on the coach. If this child gets hurt trying something she is not ready for she is liable. So she has to try to mange this all on her own. I can gaurentee this kid knows she is so far behind the others. They are perceptive and the coach is not what she is picking up on. It sets her up for failure which is a disservice to her. This coach is trying to do what's best for the child so that she will thrive and love this sport.

The problem will unfortunately most likely solve itself as this child will learn to hate gym and quit and mom will be livid.

OP- all you can do is keep doing what you are doing and understand no matter what she says about you is not true. Try not to take it personal ly and know you are a great coach. Can you bring this to the owners? I would want to know if I had situation going on like this. This family will quit and go out into the community and talk about her experiences at the gym which ultimately is bad for business. As an owner I would want to try to fix this before it gets worse.

I had a parent earlier this year push and push for a higher placement. I did not give in and at the end of this year I got a huge thank you from this mom for not listening to her. She understood at that point that I was doing what was best for her child . This mom may fight another placing to begin with but once she sees that an appropriate class will in turn help her child improve faster she may change her tune.

 

[CoachMeg]

...I have also have seen a LOT of assumptions made and a lot of accusations. I do not thank you for those. Those of you making these accusations are assuming that I just hate Suzie and wish she wasn't my gymnast to deal with. That is not at all the case.

Just know that kids know when you don't want them there, they do. You did say you didn't want her in the group right away and brought it up at four staff meetings. You didn't say you tried for three months to help her build her strength and then decided you didn't want her in a group. You said she made you want to pull your hair out in the first few weeks. To me that said young coach/employee, needs to learn patience when crap like this lands on her lap (which someone else put there). It will happen again. It's an opportunity to lose or build credibility with your boss and coworkers every time.

Lots of my advice was actually trying to nudge you toward trying some new strategies with your bosses/coworkers. I have had years of being on and heading up teams in a work environment, and if you read back through my advice much of it was geared toward you as an employee not getting what you wanted from your boss, and trying to come up with some new tactics. I am not an "owner" so I can't function as dictator, it's always been as part of a team.

There is someone at your place of employment who put her on that group that you have called out publicly repeatedly by bringing it up over and over at staff meetings. Everyone hears everything at work that happends in staff meetings.

We can learn from what happens when we get in a tough spot at work, or not.....that's up to all of us when we get in these situations.. On the rare occasion you can change other people it always means the benefit of changing is more than the cost of not changing for them. They don't change because you prove how right you are by documenting the crap out of everything, it does not work that way in places of employment. You can on occasion force someone's hand that way, but you are taking a big gamble by "winning" that way and it might cost you. That's not to say not to document, you should , but that is not the way to influence people.

People only change when there is some benefit to them. So why isn't your boss taking action? What is his cost versus his benefit in backing you up on this one? It's going to happen again in some way or form because there are always a few in the bunch at work that or going to make things prickly. I did think to myself...hmmm as your boss. You keep calling out this situation about a particular kid in staff meetings over and over and it's not working. You are not getting the action and backup you need from your boss. Why? What can you do to be more effective. Heck, or you can just think I'm an idiot, you that you did everything right, this whole thing is the other person's fault, and carry on...

Your comments are unwanted at this point. Thank you for taking the time to comment many times in this post, but you're using a bad gymnastics experience to judge me as a coach. I said I "wanted to pull my hair out" when I realized how behind she was. Direct yourself to page 2 of the thread and please look at the skills Suzie had upon entering. The hair pulling comment was not directed AT Suzie (as in, omg I cannot handle this kid), it was directed at the jumble of levels within one single group.

Please stop acting like you personally know the HC, Suzie, and her mother. Because you don't. However....I do. I'm not dismissing your "advice" because I don't want to hear the fact that I'm a bad coach that needs to learn how to have some patience. I'm dismissing your advice because you are using your personal (bad) experience to create thoughts and feelings for people that you have never met. And I have. And I'm telling you that is not how it is, yet you refuse to acknowledge that.

 

[Midwestmommy]

For example, this would be like me trying to teach a 2nd grade class with one 1st grader in the room. My goal for all the students is to get them to 3rd grade, but the 1st grader still needs to learn everything that she missed from 2nd grade. So, I can either talk to the teachers and have her go back to 2nd grade where she will be successful and learn a lot more, or I can try and rush her through everything so that she can go onto 3rd grade with the rest of the class - but she'll be a very unsuccessful student in the long run.

Unfortunately for you educational system, teachers deal with this every single day. Fortunately, our districut does groupings so each teacher has 3 "groupings" of learners. In elementary school, my daughter's class they had a group under grade level, a group that exceeded by a grade or so, and the grouping of kids that were more than three years above grade level (the ones in the gifted group were testing as exceeding at high school levels). So three math lessons every day geared toward three very different groups of kids. Seriously, our school teachers are amazing and underpaid! Off topic, but it's true.

 

[CoachMeg]

Unfortunately we do not have enough trained team coaches to split pre-team up into 3 groups. This would actually be a good idea if we had the resources to do it.