Coaches Modifying roundoff technique for saltos

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Generally, when we first train roundoffs, the goal is to turn it over such that the center of mass is significantly behind the feet on the landing, to propel the gymnast backwards into a fast, low, powerful backhandspring.

However, this technique must be modified when the gymnast is doing a salto directly after the roundoff, so that the center of mass is above or in front of the feet on landing.

My question: what is the best way to do this? (Or is there a "best way")?
Generally, when I've taught kids to do this I've had them put the arms wider on the roundoff, to bring it lower and keep it from over rotating. In principal, the same thing could be accomplished by bending the arms during the support phase on the roundoff.
In watching Denis Ablyazin's floor, though, I noticed he uses a different method that hadn't occurred to me, but seems to work really well for him: he barely even touches the floor with the second hand, and gets no block from it (this is most apparent at about 1:56, and you can see it again at about 2:28).

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Thoughts?

Second question: at what point in a gymnast's development would you start training saltos directly out of a roundoff? I've generally made it a rule not to allow my gymnasts to do saltos from a roundoff until they have at least a RO-BHS-1/1.

 

[Gymsanity]

After reading many of your posts, I'm beginning to believe you are a 'closet physicist'! I think you and Bill Sands would get along great!
The way I see it is that I would not have my athletes bend or widen their arms (strength in support and deduction issues), although we have all seen world class athletes that do. I would never do anything to slow down any part of their tumbling. Instead, I would prepare them for what comes next quicker. For ROBHS I have the girls RO a little higher to give more time and room to get their feet through and in front of their shoulders. For ROBT I have them RO a little lower so that their feet are in line or slightly behind their shoulders. I have girls as young as 6 doing them, but that is relatively new for me. I used to believe that by letting them do that, it would teach them bad habits for their ROBHS. However, by letting them do that with a lengthy explanation and demonstration, I really believe that it helps them feel and understand the result of different foot placements.
As for the video, I really don't consider what he is doing at those points that you noted in the video as RO's. In my view, technically he is doing a Brani. My two cents.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

look at 2:05. it's in slow motion. his feet and hips are way forward of the shoulders when his feet contact the floor and punch the next skill. this is how it's done and is the most effective for generating momentum. widening the arms would only prevent this from happening. depending how wide you go, you could never snap thru to 2:05 without bending the arms and legs to do so.

i agree with you about backs out of round offs. the only backs they should be doing are whip backs, which of course you already know are high flip flops that travel backwards and never go 'up'.

it's all about traveling. we can't do it as well as the power tumblers because they have rod floor, but that is what we should strive for.

as far as what age or stage of development...whip work is a separate and distinct technique. it can be developed before fulls.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

look at 2:05. it's in slow motion. his feet and hips are way forward of the shoulders when his feet contact the floor and punch the next skill. this is how it's done and is the most effective for generating momentum. widening the arms would only prevent this from happening. depending how wide you go, you could never snap thru to 2:05 without bending the arms and legs to do so.

I agree with regards to a roundoff that is to be followed by a BHS or a whip. But for saltos done directly out of RO (ie RO-3/1, RO-Thomas, etc), the goal isn't just horizontal acceleration; they need to deflect upwards. That sort of modified roundoff is what I was asking about.

 

[ACoach78]

I am not sure that an athlete needs to alter his/her RO technique to achieve this. However, I do think that this should only be done with pretty experienced athletes who -

a) Already have a very strong RO that turns over very well and enables them to really get their feet to rotate through for the more traditional usage (i.e. BHS or Whip)

b) Have a good conceptual understanding of RO mechanics.

I would encourage you not to do these with inexperienced gymnasts and/or gymnasts who lack sufficient strength and power to effectively turn the RO over when performing a RO BHS or RO Whip. In this situation, they are more than likely already piking down to some degree and you'll just be reinforcing this problem.

So, this is something that I would not do unless you have a fairly experienced gymnast with a good RO already. At that point, I don't think it will be difficult at all for them to slightly alter the technique and I would imagine that you could just verbally cue ("land with your feet a little behind you" or "stay more on top on your feet at the end of the round-off....don't snap through/turn over as much") and get close to the results you want after a few turns.

Hope that helps.

 

[BlairBob]

You can also the change the hurdle to focus on less forward momentum and more vertical momentum by hurdling high vs forward and diagonal.

I don't think you'll really introduce until optionals sometime when their basic RO mechanics and back tumbling are solid. Obviously, MAG gymnasts need to do a side pass of arabian or side somi but when a girl starts preparing arabians (I'm not sure I've ever seen a girl tumble RO to side somi besides doing side somi on BB) might be a good time.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I am not sure that an athlete needs to alter his/her RO technique to achieve this. However, I do think that this should only be done with pretty experienced athletes who -

a) Already have a very strong RO that turns over very well and enables them to really get their feet to rotate through for the more traditional usage (i.e. BHS or Whip)

b) Have a good conceptual understanding of RO mechanics.

I would encourage you not to do these with inexperienced gymnasts and/or gymnasts who lack sufficient strength and power to effectively turn the RO over when performing a RO BHS or RO Whip. In this situation, they are more than likely already piking down to some degree and you'll just be reinforcing this problem.

So, this is something that I would not do unless you have a fairly experienced gymnast with a good RO already. At that point, I don't think it will be difficult at all for them to slightly alter the technique and I would imagine that you could just verbally cue ("land with your feet a little behind you" or "stay more on top on your feet at the end of the round-off....don't snap through/turn over as much") and get close to the results you want after a few turns.

Hope that helps.

yep. very good acoach78. and triples must have the feet behind the hips no matter if it comes from a round off or a back handspring. the Thomas would be somewhere in the middle depending on the athlete. for all else, whip and travel.

going forward, Rudi/Randi is the triple full. feet are slightly forward the hips on the punch. the mirror image of the triple full. all other forward tumbling, the feet are under/slight behind the hips on the front handspring and then whip and travel.

i can't emphasize enough how this is being pounded in to everyone at the ranch. what the athlete can't make in height (you can only go so high) you can make up in distance and still have the 'room' to finish whatever it is you're doing. the model is power tumbling.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Agreed completely that this is something that would only be explored with top-level gymnasts. This is absolutely not something I'd throw at my level 5s. It goes without saying that at anything below that level, the priority is getting the CoM behind the feet on the landing to accelerate into a whip or handspring.

My question is about the technique as it applies to those top-level gymnasts. The ones who are doing triple fulls and double saltos out of roundoffs. The ones who genuinely need to go up, rather than back.

I'm not coaching any such kids at the moment.

 

[rocky]

I used to do a different roundoff when doing saltos vs bhs. The change I made was to do a snap-down instead of a block. When going into a salto I didn't feel a block, instead I pulled down really hard with both hands until my feet hit the ground at which time I lifted my arms up really quickly. This not only gave me a more vertical take off, but only got me a bit more height. With a bit of practice I was able adjust my feet position to get either slightly forward of or slightly past vertical depending on which skill I was doing. Although I never did triple, but was able to manage 2.5 pretty easily.

It was interesting to watch how Ablyazin does it, but he is a machine. I'm not sure a mere mortal could do it like that.