Should a girl be on Level 5 team without a kip?

[Lissy]

My dd is level 4. She has never worked on kips in practice. She might have it by the time she moves up to level 5 just from playing around with them at open gym. Most of the girls that moved up to level 5 this year did not have their kips, but now a few months later most of them seem to have it. Our gym really seems to stick to the basics and we don't uptrain. Pretty much level for level all skills are mastered before girls move up.

 

[gymgurl]

In my squad its perfectly acceptable to move up to level 5 without a kip, mind you not all apparatus's are compulsory. I like this system and if i was in america i would set up a similar one, where you can compete 1 or as many as 4 apparatus only those without all 4 will not be considered in AA. This program is specifically for late starters or those who don't want to train very seriously but still want to compete. You are not however allowed to compete bars without a kip in fact our coach says that you need both kips even though the second is a bonus.

 

[kimskids]

In my daughters gym they also do not really do a whole lot of up training. They do a little but not a lot. My daughter is one who will ask to work on higher level skills because she has all her level 3 skills. She is moving up to level 5 for the summer and has all the skills other than the kip but her coach says she has all summer to work on it and if she is not ready to compete she can always miss the first meet of the season. I know for a fact there is one girl on the level 5 team who has been working on her kip for over a year and still does not have it. She competes but scratches on bars. I guess if she is really working on it and does well at everything else if you were to hold them back for too long they would likely get bored and quit. Obviously she does not score well for AA but she is old enough to understand that and continues to work on her kip at practice and through private lessons. I am nervous and hope my daughter does not have too much of a problem with them but if she does we will work through it.....

 

[bogwoppit]

well, there's no bonuses in compulsories, so there's no way to make it up.

Gymgirl08 lives in Canada, and even though kips are required at her level, P2, you can use other bonus skills to raise the start score. The kip "must" be done once for 0.5, if you don't do it you lose that, but you can add in other skills like sole cirle, salto dismount, cast to HS etc. It uses the FIG system, at all levels.

 

[Bajanswife]

DD's Level 4 team is training kips now, because our next meet isn't until June. Kips can take a long time to get, and going into level 5 without a kip pretty much guarantees that the fall meets will be done without the skill (for most of them). Our girls are not as strong on bars as they are on beam and floor for some reason, so bars is always the last event for the girls to really "get". Our HC makes decisions on an individual bases, in the weeks leading up to a meet. We have 2 girls in our level 4 group who had to compete level 3 again this season because they weren't ready for level 4 competition when the time came. They still train with level 4, and they are getting their level 4 skills slowly, but in the weeks before a meet they will practice to compete level 3. The same thing happens with level 5 - a group will move to level 5 based on them having most of the skills, but if in the weeks leading up to the first meet the HC judges that a particular girl just won't have enough of the skills to successfully compete them, she will compete level 4 again that year while also training level 5. The HC will let an otherwise strong gymnast compete a level if she needs a minor spot or is inconsistent with maybe just one skill e.g. we have a really strong gymnast who had suddenly grown tall and lanky and who was having real issues with the BHS and was terrified of falling on her head - she was spotted and was willing to take the spotting deduction. She still did very well on floor because the rest of the routine was almost perfect (she does ballet and is so graceful and almost perfect in her floor routine except for the BHS). Now when it comes to the kips, I would think that a level 5 routine is almost nothing without them, so I don't see the point on trying to compete them unless you only need a finger spot or something and are willing to take the deduction. To me it's better than scratching the event, because you still get the practice trying to compete the event, and you just need very minor help with part of it. I can also see gymnasts who are strong in the other events wanting to compete them and not have to drop back down to the level underneath just because of a kip - in fact, if they are strong gymnasts who did well in level 4, it's almost unfair to compete them there again when they have great level 5 routines except for the kip - it makes it unfair for the new level 4s competing against girls who really should be doing level 5. This is one of those areas that I really think should be decided on an individual basis if possible (though maybe for big gyms this is too difficult?).

 

[MaryA]

When she started the season, my level 5 daughter did not have her kip consistantly and scratched on bars at her first meet. She ended up the year with the highest AA scores out of the level 5's on her team, and qualifying for and doing well at States (with mid 8's on bars). The coaches did not know when they moved her up if/when she would get her kip. It did make for a rocky beginning of the season... but I think that's more from my perspective than hers. Win or lose, she loves going to the meets. I'm the one who gets stressed out. I think it really has to be a decision made on an individual basis: whether the low scores will be discouraging to the point of making the sport not fun, whether the gymnast has a history of making big improvements during meet season, etc. I'm awfully glad that my daughter didn't have to do a second year of level 4 just because she didn't have her kip.

I wish I could go back to the "me" that posted on the other thread about this subject (posted back in September, just before the start of meet season) and tell her that it will be O.K. That Kathy will learn her kips and that, even though squat-ons are still a challenge for her, in true Kathy style, she'll stick them in every meet even if she still misses a lot of them in practice.

 

[marie83]

I'd have to go case by case.

I have a similar dilemma this year.
One of my gymnasts has not passed level 5 (British) yet, but she has almost all her skills for level 4 - all bar 1 element on beam and 1 MAJOR one on floor. We have until the end of August to get these 2 skills but if she is to compete level 4 I'd rather she had them NOW!
I can get her to repeat level 5 for the 3rd year but I'd feel that I was holding her back unnecessarily. She will easily pass level 5 this year and it might cause some coaches and judges to wonder why on earth she wasn't moved up!

Now last year I had a gymnast who had passed level 5 the previous year. I made the decision not to enter her for level 4 last year as she was missing her kip, her bhs on beam and punch front and tuck back on floor - her handspring vault was also dodgy. She was clearly not ready to compete. However, because she had passed level 5, she could not repeat it. She had almost a whole year off competing. This year she is still missing her kip. I'm tempted to enter her this year even if she is still missing the kip because I wouldn't want her to miss another year of competition.

So in all, it really should be taken on an individual basis. It should be the coaches decision but parents should be in agreement - I think if the coach wants the gymnast to compete and the parent doesn't a meeting should be held and both should 'argue' their points, but at the end of the day the parent is paying so the coach should respect their decision!

 

[eme777]

I will also admit that mental blocks are a totally different ballgame, and typically those kids are fully capable of performing the skills, meaning there really is no reason to hold them back.

Thank you for saying this. I get frustrated when people treat this as a black or white issue. My own daughter has been fighting some major confidence issues due to the head coach at her previous gym. Even with these emotional issues holding her back, she was scoring 36's as a level 4 and there was nothing to be gained by holding her back. Her level 5 coach is a saint for working with her all season to overcome these emotional blocks. She had been balking on vault (level 5), even though it's a skill she's had for a long time. DD had been able to do her kips with coach giving a 2 finger spot for about a year, but the coach would step away and she would fall apart. She finally did on her own 1 1/2 weeks before her first meet & made them all in competition this year. I know many coaches would have written her off, but her coach has stuck with her and by the end of the season, she was scoring 8's in both of those events. She is by no mean "fixed" emotionally, and still has a lot to work on, but at least it's being worked on.

I just know of a number of cases where kids have not had a kip at the beginning of a season, but has it by the end & does quite well. I object to not treating kids on an individual basis. I know it's harder to deal with the gymnasts and parents without the set rules. On the other hand, if a coach makes the kips a rule to move to level 5, and then makes an exception for 1 or 2 gymnasts, with good reasons, they are still having to deal with frustrated parents. We need to remember that kids need to be treated as individual, not just a number, and gyms should not be merely "gymnast factories."

 

[coachmolly]

I completely agree with treating gymnasts as individuals, even though that does open up the doors for plenty of complaints from upset parents. I think guidelines are great for letting kids and parents know what is generally expected of them to be able to move up, but there is an exception to every rule. The gyms who strictly stick to their standards are the ones who are going to miss out on a handful of great gymnasts who just struggle with one or two aspects of the compulsory routines and get stuck.
But I think coaches, at least the somewhat experienced ones at good gyms, tend to have a pretty good idea of what each gymnast is capable of- at the current time by also in the near future, as well as what is holding them back, is it fear or a workable mental block? Or is it a lack of solid basics and a good grasp of the technique of the skill? I'm not sure how other coaches view it, but the two are pretty different things in my experiences that need different approaches to get the best results.

 

[aerialriver]

The problem is a kip is an essential skill, like a back hand spring. It is in every level from 5-Elite, in every single routine. I could understand more letting a kid go on that doesn't ever get a mill circle as it will never be used again. I guess my personal thoughts would be if that is the only level 5 skill she is missing and looks like she is close, she should move up and scratch the first couple meets on bars if needed. If the kid is missing more skills I would say no.

 

[nevertooold]

but at the end of the day the parent is paying so the coach should respect their decision!

At the end of the day the coach and owner are liable for the safety of the athlete.

Taking the parents and athletes opinion into consideration is one thing, but it can set a precedence for parents to get too pushy or think they can negotiate the child up a level bc they are paying for it. It's a slippery slope.

 

[marie83]

Oh, I agree entirely. I was actually meaning the other way around, if the parent did not want their child to compete because of a missing skill or something.

 

[Blackie6]

Depends on the kid. While my DD did not have so much trouble with the kip, after doing two years of L4 she would have been done and most likely quit gymnastics if she wasn't moved up to L5. She did have teamates who sat out bars during the L5 season. They had all other skills and were close, but not quite there. Had it been an issue for my DD, she would have preferred to sit it out and strive to get it. She has never been driven for AA scores or awards, that would not have upset her as much as being left back. Not having it and not competeting it would be HUGE motivation for her. I think this is the case of the friends that did sit out bars. Thru that season having the teamates there to cheer them on and watch them comepete bars for first time was like a celebration every meet! By the end of the season they all had their KIP!

I would think that coaches know what is best for each girl.

 

[GymGirl1311]

At my gym they move kids up in April.. The only way you get moved up is if you have ALMOST every skill.. They allow you to have 3 skills that your really really close to.. But if the coaches feel you still wont get that skill by competition season you have to stay in the level you were originally in.. Also your coach could spot you at a meet, but I don't see a point in it especially when its one of the main skills because if your coach touches you, you get a pretty big deduction. We also have had numerous people scratch on a certain event if they couldn't do some of the main skills...

 

[txgymfan]

This thread is from April 2011. I think the situation is resolved by now.

 

[sunshinegymnast]

I would say no. I've had my coach since level 3/4 and she's trained kips before we even competed level 4 and we had them consistently for level 5 so it was an easy transition. But if she's pretty much got every other skill then I guess she should be on the team

 

[bogwoppit]

Leave this thread alone. PLEASE.