Coaches Where do arms go on springboard contact for vault?

[CoachTodd]

I won't put anything in to skew this one just because I already have a particular point of view one it. Basically, Where do you like to have the gymnasts' arms when their feet make contact with the springboard when they vault. This is for normal entry vaults not round off entries.

 

[gymdog]

I'd say between hips and chest, skewing lower rather than higher though. I was torn between that and arms down, but realistically I'd say between hip and waist height. So maybe I should have voted arms down. Arms chest height is incorrect to me and turn over won't be fast enough in that case. The interesting thing is that men's side seems to take a more aggressive approach to this and I've seen drills working just an arm swing to the board where the arms are basically behind the gymnast on the board and then they jump up and swing their arms up (rather than a circle). So pretty dramatic. I guess on the men's side high level forward entry vaults are also much more common and aggressive, so that would make sense that this would be so key and high level work on it wouldn't disappear (where on the girls side, especially strict JO track, the focus tends to shift to roundoff entry work - with limited time you just find the most bang for your buck there).

 

[JBS]

Good question. Well...if I were to pop a good vault myself (back in the day)...my arms were sharp and on the high side. I say between chest and ears.

 

[CoachTodd]

I should have made it where you could have multiple choices. I can see where certain positions may change depending on the circumstances.

 

[JBS]

Technically...where should they be? All I know is what I see and what I did. Here is what I see:

The video:
[video=youtube;8GZjc0ex0iA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZjc0ex0iA[/video]

Another:


The video:
[video=youtube;rVyo5PI3oAg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVyo5PI3oAg[/video]

Another:


The video:
[video=youtube;kI4kzYLFTF0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI4kzYLFTF0[/video]
​

I did look at a couple of high level tsuks also...they looked similar. It seems that we teach arm circling to all low level gymnasts and I develops into something different at the upper levels. Is this just the way it should be done?...or is there a better way to teach underarm lift at the lower levels?

I have been hearing a lot of talk on the men's side about a pull, shove, slap (down, up, down....down, up, slap) motion for the handspring double front. Basically under arm lifting over the table and then slapping down on it?

​

 

[gymdog]

Well I guess we also need to clarify whether it's arms as the feet come together, or arms at the takeoff point from the board. Seems a little like a nitpick, but particularly in a vault like Alicia's, things are going to happen fast and the arms are going to have significantly changed position between those points. I think it's probably an important distinction when we think about the hurdle overall. Her arms at the point when her feet were coming together are about waist height and out to the side. By takeoff she gets them about ear height.

A compulsory vault isn't moving at quite this horizontal speed...arms that high when the feet come together on an average compulsory vault would probably mean an up and down motion from the board to the vault surface. It would be better to have the arms lower when the feet come together, arms to about chest height on takeoff and emphasize the heels bringing the body into line.

So I guess my answer: low (waist height or so) as feet move together, chest height or so on takeoff.

Edit: I realize the original question did specify "springboard contact" but I hadn't fully considered my answer.

 

[JBS]

Well I guess we also need to clarify whether it's arms as the feet come together, or arms at the takeoff point from the board. Seems a little like a nitpick, but particularly in a vault like Alicia's, things are going to happen fast and the arms are going to have significantly changed position between those points. I think it's probably an important distinction when we think about the hurdle overall. Her arms at the point when her feet were coming together are about waist height and out to the side. By takeoff she gets them about ear height.

I don't follow..."as" the feet come together. They are coming together as she is flying through the air on a hurdle....feet meet at board contact (first pic above). At takeoff time on the board...the body has rotated forward...causing the arms to get closer to the ears.

I would say her arms are chest height and out to the side on her first vault during her arm circle...they do not drop much that I can see.

 

[JBS]

Here is another vault:

Sorry I don't have my screen capture tool right now. This girl also makes contact at around chest height.

[video=youtube;zJ1OYe7MlsU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ1OYe7MlsU[/video]​

 

[Deleted member D3987]

men have a higher center of gravity. women lower. the most efficient technique is one where the arms lower, side circle or drop. this must take BEFORE they contact the board. it's all about what is done on that last step.

then you have slow twitch, fast twitch and those kids that are intimidated by the closeness of their bodies to the horse. such a mixed bag. and amber is an anomaly. for every "amber" technique (arms overhead) there will be 20 more that can be shown that don't. for example, and i can't think of her name at the moment, but the black girl from scats a few years ago that was the 1st to perform conventional lay front full and rudi. she performed just as alicia does with the side/underarm throw.

now, the very best most consistent (you know how they can lose their timing and then the vault altogether) technique is done on the very last step before the board and executed precisely how alicia and marian perform it. this is the technique that coaches should strive for.

 

[MissBear]

The way it was explained to me that I understood was basically 'We want arms behind before they hit the springboard, coming forwards (hip to chest) as they hit the springboard. We tell them arms behind on the springboard. No gymnast will fly face first into the vault if they can help it, and this way encourages a quicker arm swing.' It's always worked so far, but I don't know how well it translates on to where higher level and older gymnasts are more aware of what they are really doing.

 

[JBS]

I don't understand?

It looks like there are a few confusing things here. Both of the last two poll questions include the chest. I would say arms are around chest high and moving upward and forward on board contact. So you could really pick either of the last two choices if you are thinking "chest" high.

Are we talking high or low level vaulting? High level vaulting is above...their arms are above their chest on springboard contact. I thought I would have an easier time finding a high level vaulter with low arms...but I can't. Here's another one...the vault is at 53 seconds...the arms are high.

[video=youtube;LOQuhovPY4g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOQuhovPY4g[/video]
​

Low level vault (level 7)...still having a hard time...(her arms are at the red line)

​

Here's the video...
[video=youtube;LZp0q5a6aWs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZp0q5a6aWs[/video]
​

The last question...where is the chest? Technically, where I drew the yellow line above would still be "chest high".

Am I not understanding the question correctly? I can pull example after example of arms chest high or above "at springboard contact". I am simply not understanding why "hips to chest" is getting the majority vote?​

 

[JBS]

Is everyone just saying they teach it low...and eventually it will drift higher as they get to a higher level?

 

[Gymsanity]

The arms are heavy and carry a lot of momentum. It doesn't make sense to me to jump down and forward on the board with your legs and body while your arms are going in an opposite direction at the same time, effectively off-setting a substantial amount of energy that could be used to compress the board. Also, as the board rebounds, your arms should be rising at the same time for greater lift and power. IMO

 

[CoachTodd]

In General, I think most folks are saying the same thing. usually in compulsory levels the arms may be a little below the chest and shoulders since the vaulter isn't usually generating the same amount of turnover as an upper level vault. I found out via experimentation and watching quite a bit of video, that the upper levels seem to have the arms at or above shoulder height on their way up. Since they turn over so quickly and they usually have the board close to the table, having their arms any lower wouldn't give them time to get them in position to vault.
The main reason I posted the poll is that I've seem quite a few coaches that coach beginner levels telling the kids to hit the board with their arms up. I've noticed from the poll that no one here , so far, agrees with the way these people are trying to teach it. Unfortunately, the way compulsory vaults are judged, if the do what I would consider a vault that will lead to a awesome front entry vault, they gets points deducted. I've also watch both girls and guys trying to turn their tsuk into a lay-tsuk-full while hitting the board with their arms up and no one trying to get them to change it. I really don't see how they' get enough amplitude the way they are trying to do it unless they get all of their turn over from the run.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i concur^^^^

 

[gymdog]

Since they turn over so quickly and they usually have the board close to the table, having their arms any lower wouldn't give them time to get them in position to vault.

Perfect way to put it! The arms have to be where the heel drive can "catch up" and keep the body more in line/unpiked (note, not exactly the kind of "line" the compulsory program requires). If a compulsory vault hits the board with their arms up, often the heel drive doesn't catch up and the body pikes (also, less conditioning at this level than an advanced athlete).

 

[gralch1]

I went to a clinic last summer. Speaker said that arms should be down to aid in compression of the board thus getting maximum spring. Made sense to me.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

hey JBS, the name was London Phillips that went to scats. seriously, 1 of the top 5 females i have ever seen vault. unfortunately, i can't find her vault although i have seen it somewhere. when i come across it i'll post it.

 

[CoachTodd]

I went to a clinic last summer. Speaker said that arms should be down to aid in compression of the board thus getting maximum spring. Made sense to me.

This works for compulsory vaults but when you start to turn over faster, the hands sometimes can't get into position for the block to occur. I teach the beginners down then slowly adjust them up to around shoulder height.

 

[gralch1]

Yes, I do coach compulsory. Love the little ones! I give them strong basics and send them on to optionals when they are ready.