WAG XCEL Gold Judges, Help

[kimkuzma2]

I guess I don't really see it the way you do. The meet is only a point in time and gymnastics has by far one of the longest journeys in terms of development, advancement, and complexity. I feel like a kid who has those bigger skills down solid, should compete them even if the harder skills have a bigger chance for deduction. In just prepares them for the next season and their ongoing development.

I agree and am happy we are part of a gym that encourages that. It's tough to watch other gyms who do not encourage that, though. Their focus is to win no matter what- even if it's not quite fair or valid. I'm glad our kids compete bigger skills well. It's disappointing for the athlete and frustrating for parents to watch kids perform easy skills for the sake of winning, while marginally beating kids who are truly very talented and do bigger skills and come in just under the easy skilled score. The frustration is real and makes people want to find a more valid sport where talent and skill are rewarded- not discouraged.

 

[kimkuzma2]

some may argue that often it is harder work (and a better indicator of future success) to complete a lower skill with precision than it is a higher one without...

Isn't 9s pretty close to precision?? I'd think so. I could see your point if the skill was being performed for a 6 or 7....

 

[kimkuzma2]

No, it is not a terrible game because a gym meet is NOT a game. Gymnasts do not compete to to try to get a higher score than someone else. They do it because they love to flip and dance and fly and to show us the remarkable physical skills they have learned. To do this they have worked many many hours and in the meets they are showing us that they have become physically fit, they have learned poise and self-confidence and perseverance. This is what we go to the meets to see, not to see Suzie beat Janey. If you worry about scoring you miss the beauty and thrill of this sport.

Yes- I agree 100%. But reward accordingly while doing it. If not, why do we go to competitions? I watch such unfairness amongst so many gyms, and it is disheartening.

I coach diving- a very similar sport, and meets are to show off the grace, poise, and beauty as well. But having kids who smoke a list of voluntary (easy) dives beat kids who pretty darn near smoke a list of optional (hard) dives would never happen. Both great divers, but one can do what the other can't do. There in lies your degree of difficulty. The diver's final score who did an optional list of dives would be 100 points higher. There is none of that reward here. Do whatever skills you want- it's all rewarded the same.

 

[gymbeam]

i'm confused....your dd is averaging mid to upper 8s though, right? with some 7s thrown in?

 

[kimkuzma2]

But that's only part of it...there may be a mismatch of skills across events. No kip but can do a BHS on beam. Or the kid can kip but is terrified of BWO on beam. There's a lot of flexibility. More so than in JO. It's another alternative for girls to be involved in the sport who may not have otherwise had that opportunity. My DD competed Xcel for a year. I guess she was like the kids you are complaining about now. Very conservative routines but high scoring. I'll admit it was very awkward when scores would flash and DD's beam routine w/o a cartwheel scored higher than a teammate's routine who stuck a BWO. But her routine overall was cleaner. Her routines weren't designed to win or place though. She had the skills she had because that was where she was at developmentally and mentally with the sport.

That's awesome! Congrats to your daughter! Not everyone can do clean routines Don't you think the skills a kid does should be leveled with a degree of difficulty so her clean beam routine with no cartwheel doesn't beat a teammate's clean beam routine with a stuck bwo? Seems awkward.

 

[LizzieLac]

I agree and am happy we are part of a gym that encourages that. It's tough to watch other gyms who do not encourage that, though. Their focus is to win no matter what- even if it's not quite fair or valid. I'm glad our kids compete bigger skills well. It's disappointing for the athlete and frustrating for parents to watch kids perform easy skills for the sake of winning, while marginally beating kids who are truly very talented and do bigger skills and come in just under the easy skilled score. The frustration is real and makes people want to find a more valid sport where talent and skill are rewarded- not discouraged.

Funny story. My DS plays in a travel soccer league but it is not premier. When he was U10 or U11, his team lost ALL-THE-TIME. The had no idea how to set up plays and new nothing about strategy. It was so frustrating for the parents to watch. We felt really bad for these poor kids. The coach was a super nice guy and great with the kids - we really liked him. He was a good coach, but it never bothered him that these kids were losing. He taught ball skills and that was what he thought was important. The parents wanted the kids to win so they would feel good about themselves and their performance. So, my DH had a conversation with him. He said winning wasn't important. My DH asked "when is winning important?" Coach said, "when they become professionals."

I like it when my kid wins, I won't lie. But according to our soccer coach, if you are in any sport for the long-term development, progress, and advancement, the meets and games we are talking about now don't matter.

 

[kimkuzma2]

Tru

i'm confused....your dd is averaging mid to upper 8s though, right? with some 7s thrown in?

True- she just came back from a broken collarbone and weeks off of no physical activity, so she is just getting back on her game. I'm talking for the good of the sport and for the good of all kids. I watch it happen at all the meets. It's not fair to the kids who this happens to. I'm a teacher as well, so I am for fairness for all- not solely about "my kid". It's unfair across the board- my kid or someone else's kid. I'm standing up for them all

 

[kimkuzma2]

Funny story. My DS plays in a travel soccer league but it is not premier. When he was U10 or U11, his team lost ALL-THE-TIME. The had no idea how to set up plays and new nothing about strategy. It was so frustrating for the parents to watch. We felt really bad for these poor kids. The coach was a super nice guy and great with the kids - we really liked him. He was a good coach, but it never bothered him that these kids were losing. He taught ball skills and that was what he thought was important. The parents wanted the kids to win so they would feel good about themselves and their performance. So, my DH had a conversation with him. He said winning wasn't important. My DH asked "when is winning important?" Coach said, "when they become professionals."

I like it when my kid wins, I won't lie. But according to our soccer coach, if you are in any sport for the long-term development, progress, and advancement, the meets and games we are talking about now don't matter.

Truth!!! Winning is definitely not everything. But fairness to everyone who shows up is

 

[momof2gymmies]

I have not read all of the responses, but it is what it is. My 2 girls both compete xcel - 1 is bronze and 1 is silver. It is our gyms philosophy that the kids compete the harder skills, and can't move up till they can do it across the board. For example, my silver DD is doing a handstand and a bwo bt dismount on beam. Sure her handstand is easy, but she needed to put a second acro in since her bwo is connected to the tuck, so it doesn't count as an acro, just a dismount. Her floow has a robhsbt, and she often competes against girls who are doing just a robhs. But, she is happy doing the harder skills. She is kipping on both bars. She could 100% compete gold, but at our gym she can't, until she can cleanly compete the hardest of the gold skills.

Same is true for YDD. Our gym is typically the only gym where the girls compete a cartwheel on beam as a bronze.

Mine have lost many times to girls who have easier routines, but I firmly believe that in the long run they are better off. It makes them work harder, it sets them up better for the next level, and it teaches them that life is not always fair. They will both flat out say that they would rather have the skill than the score.

 

[wandrewsjr]

But there is a solution to the "problem" you describe...move up levels! A gymnast who competes a platinum or diamond skill level routine shouldn't beat the kid who performs an Xcel gold skill level routine at an Xcel gold competition just because of higher difficulty. She could be moved up to platinum or diamond where she will be competing the same skill level as the other platinum/diamonds. "Problem" solved.

 

[gymbeam]

sorry about her injury.

on one hand i do totally see where you're coming from, but on the other i appreciate the trade-off that has to be made to make the xcel program what it is...and that's a more flexible program to allow girls more options. just keep in mind they are indeed all judged by the same exact criteria. so, it is "fair", but not necessarily always equal.

you may not like it now, but next week your daughter may develop a fear of going backwards and then you'll be grateful she can still compete within her level because of all the alternative skills she has to choose from. you just never know. it happens!

just remember that in your daughter's case, this is just a stepping stone. when she moves back over to JO, there will be a narrower range of skills within levels.

 

[gymbeam]

But there is a solution to the "problem" you describe...move up levels! A gymnast who competes a platinum or diamond skill level routine shouldn't beat the kid who performs an Xcel gold skill level routine at an Xcel gold competition just because of higher difficulty. She could be moved up to platinum or diamond where she will be competing the same skill level as the other platinum/diamonds. "Problem" solved.

and YES to this.

 

[kimkuzma2]

I have not read all of the responses, but it is what it is. My 2 girls both compete xcel - 1 is bronze and 1 is silver. It is our gyms philosophy that the kids compete the harder skills, and can't move up till they can do it across the board. For example, my silver DD is doing a handstand and a bwo bt dismount on beam. Sure her handstand is easy, but she needed to put a second acro in since her bwo is connected to the tuck, so it doesn't count as an acro, just a dismount. Her floow has a robhsbt, and she often competes against girls who are doing just a robhs. But, she is happy doing the harder skills. She is kipping on both bars. She could 100% compete gold, but at our gym she can't, until she can cleanly compete the hardest of the gold skills.

Same is true for YDD. Our gym is typically the only gym where the girls compete a cartwheel on beam as a bronze.

Mine have lost many times to girls who have easier routines, but I firmly believe that in the long run they are better off. It makes them work harder, it sets them up better for the next level, and it teaches them that life is not always fair. They will both flat out say that they would rather have the skill than the score.

I agree with you 100%!!!!! as a coach and teacher myself, I wish it was fair for all. But I would not- at all- want my daughter to do the easy skills just to win, and she wouldn't stand for it, either. I'm proud of her for always wanting to perform her skills

 

[kimkuzma2]

and YES to this.

She's only 7. The age requirements on the next level is 8 yo. That doesn't fix the problem for everyone else. It's not about "my kid" it's about "all kids"

 

[kimkuzma2]

I agree

sorry about her injury.

on one hand i do totally see where you're coming from, but on the other i appreciate the trade-off that has to be made to make the xcel program what it is...and that's a more flexible program to allow girls more options. just keep in mind they are indeed all judged by the same exact criteria. so, it is "fair", but not necessarily always equal.

you may not like it now, but next week your daughter may develop a fear of going backwards and then you'll be grateful she can still compete within her level because of all the alternative skills she has to choose from. you just never know. it happens!

just remember that in your daughter's case, this is just a stepping stone. when she moves back over to JO, there will be a narrower range of skills within levels.

Thank you- to think- all her gymnastics stuff, and she broke it picking up a rake in my mom's front yard- lol!
i agree there should definitely be flexibility on what kids "can" do, but there should be "degree of difficulty"
Attached to fix this situation.

I'm glad there is a more narrow range of skills in JO because that was my wonder..... Does this happen all the way up now??

 

[NutterButter]

That's awesome! Congrats to your daughter! Not everyone can do clean routines Don't you think the skills a kid does should be leveled with a degree of difficulty so her clean beam routine with no cartwheel doesn't beat a teammate's beam routine with a stuck bwo? Seems awkward.

No. I'm on board with the mission statement of Xcel. So I don't question that at all. I think it's a fabulous program. The degree of difficulty in scoring is appropriate for optionals though and fits in with the purpose and mission statement of higher level gymnastics. My DD is at a gym that puts the athlete first so when a kid repeats a level it is because they are missing skills or don't have the minimum score to move up. Kids are encouraged to do the most they can do (and generally kids want to compete the most difficult skills they got anyways). I agree with this philosophy too and am glad I am not at *that* gym that will hold girls back because they can't score a 37.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

She is in Xcel because she skipped lvl 1, lvl 3, Xcel gold, and will go lvl 6 or 7 next year. She is only 7. The lower levels were boring for her, and she is capable of so much more. That is why she is in Xcel where I'm seeing huge discrepancies in the validity of this sport's scoring.

Justice is not always found in diving when 2 kids do the exact same dive and a judge scores one badly, but at least it was a level playing field to start.

I am whitnessing kids with minimal skill showcased beating kids with big skills showcased. And the kids with big skills are doing a heck of a job scoring those big skills. As a coach, I'd be embarrassed if my kid appeared to be better when I'm all reality, the other kid with big, clean skills deserved to win. I'd have a hard time accepting that discrepancy as I am now. This is all out unfair to kids who work hard and are good.

I don't see any reason why a coach should be embarrassed by anything as long as their gymnasts went out and did their best. =)

If she is going to Level 6 or 7 next year, that's great, she must be talented. But just a fair warning that you may see a range of skills there as well, without any bonus points for extra difficulty either.

ALL kids work hard and as far as who is "good" or "better" that is up to the judges. At your dd's age, it's better for you and her to focus on achieving her personal best rather than who she should be "beating." If you/her/her coach chose for her to compete in Xcel this year, than you have to accept the program for what it is. In gymnastics there are a lot of things that us parents might perceive as "unfair' but it's better to try to keep a cool and level head about things, for your own sanity and for the sake of your daughter and her longevity in this sport.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

But that's only part of it...there may be a mismatch of skills across events. No kip but can do a BHS on beam. Or the kid can kip but is terrified of BWO on beam. There's a lot of flexibility. More so than in JO. It's another alternative for girls to be involved in the sport who may not have otherwise had that opportunity. My DD competed Xcel for a year. I guess she was like the kids you are complaining about now. Very conservative routines but high scoring. I'll admit it was very awkward when scores would flash and DD's beam routine w/o a cartwheel scored higher than a teammate's routine who stuck a BWO. But her routine overall was cleaner. Her routines weren't designed to win or place though. She had the skills she had because that was where she was at developmentally and mentally with the sport.

Agree with this completely! Some kids may not be throwing higher level skills simply b/c they just don't have them.

Or in my case my dd "has" some higher level skills she could be doing in Xcel Silver. Does that mean they are competition ready? Not by any means. Some gyms have high standards of how perfected a skill must be before it can be competed. Should her coaches send her out there to perform sloppy skills that aren't ready for competition? All gyms have different philosophies and different coaching methods. There are some gyms who hold talented girls back to repeat levels they are already scoring high 37's or low 38's at just to win. There's nothing prohibiting it in most states. Is it fun for me or my dd when my she has to go up against that? No, but I accept it and stress to her to worry about doing her personal best and not about how she places.

 

[bogwoppit]

Be warned that USAG is much, much pickier than Xcel in scoring. We have had other little talented ones here whose coaches have taken the same path. Rushed in to higher level skills without perfecting lower level ones. Not saying this is your daughter, but if it is USAG can be a brutal shock.

If she is getting below 9 at Xel I would say she probably needs more time to perfect her skills. Great leaps, tight legs, pointed toes etc etc. ALl those things are what gets you in to the 9's.

@Mrs. Puma might be able to offer some real insight.

 

[kimkuzma2]

Be warned that USAG is much, much pickier than Xcel in scoring. We have had other little talented ones here who's coaches have taken the same path. Rushed in to higher level skills without perfecting lower level ones. Not saying this is your daughter, but if it is USAG can be a brutal shock.

If she is getting below 9 at Xel I would say she probably needs more time to perfect her skills. Great leaps, tight legs, pointed toes etc etc. ALl those things are what gets you in to the 9's.

@Mrs. Puma might be able to offer some real insight.

I agree- My thread is talking overall - all kids- not just my kid....... Mine just got back from a broken collarbone from picking up a rake at my mom's, so she's still getting back into action. Overall the scoring in Xcel just doesn't make sense. I watch stellar routines full of skill earn a 9.1 or a 9.4 get beat by kids who have little skill who earn a 9.2 or a 9.5. Very confusing to see it happen.