WAG XCEL Gold Judges, Help

[NutterButter]

That's awesome! Congrats to your daughter! Not everyone can do clean routines Don't you think the skills a kid does should be leveled with a degree of difficulty so her clean beam routine with no cartwheel doesn't beat a teammate's clean beam routine with a stuck bwo? Seems awkward.

The part that was awkward was that other parents didn't fully understand how gymnastics is scored. Yes, there were others who did BWOs while my DD was only doing a HS. And while the BWO and rest of the routine looked great, they didn't realize how the little wobbles here and there add up or they didn't see that my DD's jumps were higher and toes pointier. All of the little things that easily go unnoticed to newbie eyes. I was a gymnast so I understood why DD scored higher but I certainly understood the confused looks among other parents when scores were flashed.

 

[bogwoppit]

I agree- My thread is talking overall - all kids- not just my kid....... Mine just got back from a broken collarbone from picking up a rake at my mom's, so she's still getting back into action. Overall the scoring in Xcel just doesn't make sense. I watch stellar routines full of skill earn a 9.1 or a 9.4 get beat by kids who have little skill who earn a 9.2 or a 9.5. Very confusing to see it happen.

Clean routines performed with perfect form will always score higher than routine with chucked skills, poor leaps and no polish. It is the same in USAG meets too. The difficulty of skills contributes far less than the way skills were performed.

You will see this for the length of your childs' gym career. The difference is if your child has good form, great skills and beautiful form, she will be the one getting the bigger scores.

 

[gymbeam]

sorry, bog- but must point out that xcel is USAG, too. pet peeve of mine.

 

[bogwoppit]

sorry, bog- but must point out that xcel is USAG, too. pet peeve of mine.

Yes you are 100% correct. I should have said JO. Always good to use the correct terminology. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[raenndrops]

It's a terrible game. It's disappointing to hard working kids who are really good to get beat by kids with half their skill set and skill level. I couldn't support that as a coach. It's hard to watch as a parent. Reward comfort and punish good skills.

You will see this in Level 6 next year. There will be girls doing ROBHSBLO and FHSFT on floor while others do ROBHSBHS and FT or aerial on Floor. On beam, some will do BHS and others will do a cartwheel or a handstand. On bars, some will cast to handstand and do a clear hip and a giant and a flyaway. Others will not cast quite to handstand (as low as horizontal and only be penalized 0.3) and a clear hip and an under swing dismount. On vault, some will do FHS and others will do 1/2-1/2. They all have the same start values… and it will come down to execution. As long as the rules are being followed, difficulty is a moot point.
Some gyms want their girls competing max routines and will not move them up to the next Xcel division until they are ready for max routines there. Others will allow minimum routines and will move them up when they have the minimum for the next division. Some are in between. Some train the harder skills, but compete what the gymnast has cleanly.
Your daughter is using Xcel as a way to bypass compulsories with the plan to switch to JO Optionals. That means she is probably practicing JO hours. If so, some people would say it isn't fair that your daughter is in the gym so many hours more than theirs. It's a balancing act.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

As long as you meet the skills required. Clean will trump difficult. A better performed lesser skill will trump a not so well performed harder skill.
There are no points for difficulty.

Our gym philosophy is you compete what you do well. Harder skills are for practice as they are continually uptraining. And when they are done well they compete them

 

[Deleted member 17723]

I agree with most things above. From a gymnast's perspective, it isn't always about winning. To me, I would rather have a harder routine (pretending I'm in xcel... not compulsory) and not win, then water something down and win. I personally don't care nearly as much about placing as I do trying my best, having fun, and doing the "fun" skills. I would much rather do a round off back handspring tuck, punch front, and fronthandspring stepout roundoff backhandspring (just giving some random skills fyi) than a roundoff backhandspring backhandspring, dive roll, and fronthandspring (just giving an ex., probably doesn't fit the requirements but bear with me). Xcel is meant to give range and is meant to be a little more relaxed, or at least in most gym's minds. Many people probably disagree with me, but it's just my two cents....

 

[my4buffaloes]

You will see this at almost all optional levels. A range of difficulty in skills. But good form and hitting the skills will score better than ugly skills or bad form. You can't get bonus for difficulty until level 9. Nothing you can do but get used to it.

 

[flippinam]

This is all out unfair to kids who work hard and are good.

Okay this statement just rubs me the wrong way! Because a gymnast competes with lower difficulty skills, they don't work hard? No way! I can assure you that the kids with the higher level skills are not the only hard workers. I compete with minimum requirements in my routines, and I have worked my butt off just to get that. When I learn skills, they are clean, so my routines score relatively well. However, the minimum requirements are my maximum skill level. I am not taking the easy way out to score well. I have had mental blocks on every event and multiple injuries to work through. I am sure this is the case for many of the "lazy" gymnasts.
If they are so good, perhaps it's time for them to move up a level. Then some parents at that level can regard them as lazy because they have the minimum requirements. See how quickly the tables can turn?
You never know what a gymnast is going through or has overcome.

 

[Azgymmiemom]

I'm going to be very unpopular. I have a Ds who competes level 8 and a dd who is level 9. So I've been around the block and seen everything... If you chuck a skill it's the same as not having it. You better own that skill to get credit. This isn't Cheer leading. And no offense to cheer leading. Those kids work hard but they aren't concerned with form. Gymnastics is about perfection. If the skill isn't perfect you better not compete it. Because imperfect progressions do not lead to greater skills. My ds has impeccable form. He's scoring well enough to place first aa at level 8. He is adding difficult skills as he gets them... Perfectly. Should a kid best him bc they chuck an ugly harder still? No. BC there is no progression from a badly performed skill. We are looking long term and progressing to level 10, really who cares about lower levels??? Just enjoy the ride and hope your kid can endure to the upper optional levels. Most don't.

 

[profmom]

And from the other side of the same coin, my DS's coach is having him compete a release move that is taking probably a net point off his score on high bar -- probably close to a half point in deductions and an additional half point because he can't yet swing out of it. Kids without the release move are scoring better than him, but because the long-term goal is to compete the skill cleanly and eliminate the pause, he is totally fine with scoring lower as he's putting the pieces together.

Gymnastics as a sport is not about what happens at meets.

 

[raenndrops]

I'm going to be very unpopular. We are looking long term and progressing to level 10, really who cares about lower levels??? Just enjoy the ride and hope your kid can endure to the upper optional levels. Most don't.

Those who know they will not get to upper level optionals probably care about lower levels. If girls on our team get to L8, that's amazing. We only practice 7.5 hours a week.
We want clean skills. We strive for perfect form. We will allow gymnasts to compete skills they can do safely, even if they aren't perfect yet. Our biggest group is L3. Our next biggest group is L6. Then Xcel Gold, then L4, then L7, and one L5 and L8.
Most of our L6 will probably repeat. They aren't ready for L7. They are in Optionals, so they are happy.

 

[GYM0M]

I'm sorry, but to say it's not fair is not appropriate. My dd struggled with this last year in L7. She was very disheartened. The solution? She moved up to L8. As a matter of fact, the same thing happened a couple of weeks ago in L9 so it happens in every level, BUT to claim it's unfair is just not right. I'm going to assume that this is happening to a girl or girls in your gym, maybe not your dd, but essentially, when she's back, this unfairness will pertain to her more particularly. Here's my problem, you are upset by other teams strategies(philosophies) to get higher scores when your gym is pretty much doing the same thing. Obviously, a 7-8 year old that will be competing L6/7 next year is extremely talented and, I assume, looking towards higher levels, elite even? So why is it not 'unfair' that your gym is having her compete in Xcel, a program 'intended' to be more for the recreational gymnast, as opposed to JO compulsory levels?

 

[GYM0M]

I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, but based on my very limited knowledges of Xcel and a quick internet search, I doubt these routines you mention are actually more difficult, technically, per FIG skill values. More progressed (i.e. BT instead of BHS)? Yes, but more difficult? More than likely not.

 

[z2akids]

I agree- My thread is talking overall - all kids- not just my kid....... Mine just got back from a broken collarbone from picking up a rake at my mom's, so she's still getting back into action. Overall the scoring in Xcel just doesn't make sense. I watch stellar routines full of skill earn a 9.1 or a 9.4 get beat by kids who have little skill who earn a 9.2 or a 9.5. Very confusing to see it happen.

I think you need to take care of your verbal. The girls with more advanced skills/tricks are not being outscored by girls who are not skilled. They are being outscored by girls who are outperforming them (greater skill) in skills/tricks thst are within the level's requirements. Barring some sort of inequality in scoring, the girls who are scoring higher have higher competency/cleaner routines/greater skill/more perfect form, pick your description.

It is sometimes very difficult for parents to see what the judges see. I know that when my DD first started doing a handstand on the beam, it looked AMAZING! She competed it at old 3 and if she wasn't destined for greatness based on the skill she showed, I don't k ow who was. Fast forward 2 1/2 years and she now does L4 routines - also with a handstand. The difference is night and day. I looked back at her first ever competition bean routine that looked flawless to me. Well, the handstand barely got past 60 degrees, her legs weren't together, etc. Now it is verticle, held and controlled on the way up and down with nary a wobble. My point is that, as a parent, I wouldn't have found anything wrong back then. But I am sure the judges did. just because she could safely "perform a skill" doesn't mean it is perfect and will score highly.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

It is an interesting debate, and one that on the surface the FIG scoring system deals with by having credit for harder moves.

However those of us that use FIG also know that we get hammered with deductions. I always smile a little when I see 9.6 scoring JO routines, which would score nothing like that in FIG. From the out ( say your level 3 up) we expect 180 split, if not 180 deducted.

NO steps on landing, I see "step outs" from tumbling in JO competitions that would get a 0.5 deduction that don't get penalised in JO, and most of our deductions are at least twice yours.

The system is what the system is, it demands perfection and a gymnast with clean form will always score better.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Hi. I have been wondering this for a long time..... My daughter competes Xcel Gold this year, and as I watch gymnasts throw big skilled routines and earn 9.2s, I see them get beat by gymnasts doing the minimum, easiest skills allowed, earning 9.3 and winning. How is it that kids who compete big skill really well constantly get beat by kids who do easier skills just as well? I would think that kids who do big skills would get compensated in start value since it is definitely easier to stick an easy skill. It is like level 3 kids (in skill) are beating level 7 kids (in skill) by .1 or .2....... This doesn't make any sense. Can you please help?

How many hours a week does your child do gym?

 

[Ali'sMom]

This thread has struck a chord with me. Not good or bad, but on topic.

My daughter is a level 6.
She currently competes a cartwheel and split leap on the beam, whereas the rest of her team compete BWO and BHS. The first meet in January, she did indeed score the highest (albeit only slightly) on beam of the 6 girls on her team.

From the outside, I'm sure it could look like my daughter is competing down. But from the inside, our whole team knows that DD has had a BWO for 1.5 years. But as of last August, has not been able to do it on high beam. And as of recently, not so much even on low beam. She fell, and developed a fear. A paralyzing, panic-inducing fear.
So it may look like the others are working so much harder, and my daughter is not, but what doesn't show is the anxiety and strength it takes for her to even touch the beam in a competition.

The girls who are doing the harder skills on DD's team wouldn't do lower skills if you paid them. These are girls who are on a track, who feel that level 6 is practice for Level 7. We are just hoping my DD makes it one more year.

So you just never know why a coach has a girl competing a "lower" skill.
It isn't always just to win.

 

[IreneKa]

She is in Xcel because she skipped lvl 1, lvl 3, Xcel gold, and will go lvl 6 or 7 next year. She is only 7. The lower levels were boring for her, and she is capable of so much more. That is why she is in Xcel where I'm seeing huge discrepancies in the validity of this sport's scoring.

Justice is not always found in diving when 2 kids do the exact same dive and a judge scores one badly, but at least it was a level playing field to start.

I am whitnessing kids with minimal skill showcased beating kids with big skills showcased. And the kids with big skills are doing a heck of a job scoring those big skills. As a coach, I'd be embarrassed if my kid appeared to be better when I'm all reality, the other kid with big, clean skills deserved to win. I'd have a hard time accepting that discrepancy as I am now. This is all out unfair to kids who work hard and are good.

What I find more "unfair" than that, is when Xcel is not used the way it was intended. I know it's been discussed a million times, but it just rubs me the wrong way when someone uses Xcel to get to JO optionals, most likely practicing JO hours. Those girls who compete "easy" skills probably only practice 5-7 hours a week. So, if they can beat those who goes 15 hrs/week by doing easier skills, good for them!
Yes, it's sometimes frustrating seeing my DD, who competes kips and flyaway getting beaten by girls who compete pullover and half-turn, but try telling her not to compete her flyaway, she will kill you for even suggesting that.

 

[Bess]

It's a terrible game. It's disappointing to hard working kids who are really good to get beat by kids with half their skill set and skill level. I couldn't support that as a coach. It's hard to watch as a parent. Reward comfort and punish good skills.

My little bit was on the same side as yours last year when she had to compete Bronze with her L3 routines bc she was too young for L3. She was beat by children that had a cartwheel back roll and she did a ROBH. But here's the thing...who's to say that little one did not practice over and over again that cartwheel backroll and it was (at the time) so very hard for her. Why should she not be rewarded bc she hit those skills perfectly. The skills met the requirement of the level and she did them perfectly. Little Bit did her ROBH and it was pretty awesome but perhaps with a flexed foot. Both skills met the requirement but the other child did hers perfectly so she won...end of story. We chose for little bit to compete that level with the routine that she did knowing full well that there are more opportunity for deductions...especially on floor and bars with the L3 routines. But we were also looking at the big picture and how that season would benefit her down the road.

It is my understanding, that the intent of Excel was to be a more recreational, competitive system. If a gym chooses to use Excel in a different way (ex- in lieu of Levels 1-3 or bc they find those routines too easy) you have to be ok with the requirements of the level and how your DD would place if she chooses to do the higher end skills...it is what it is. We took comfort in know she would be totally set for L3 when she was of age..and so far this season has been pretty good.