WAG Beam dismount question-copper2

[Parkerinthevalley1]

Good morning!
Please excuse my "newbieness". I know very little about gymnastics. I have scouted the internet, YouTube, this site and the rule book and cannot locate a conclusive answer to my question. I'm hoping someone can help.

My daughter is in USAIGC gymnastics. She is competing at a 'copper 2' level. At most of her meets she was getting 9's on balance beam. The last two meets she scored low 8's and a 7!
The ONLY change in the beam routine has been the dismount.... instead of doing a round off, she is now doing a front handspring dismount. I looked in the rules and its slightly confusing. At one point it says its allowed but further on it says "no saltos/flips". Would a judge consider this a "flip"?

My question is, can anyone definitively tell me if this is an allowed beam dismount for a copper 2 gymnast?

Thank you.

 

[KipWinger]

Welcome! I'm pretty new myself but there aren't that many people from USAIGC here so it's nice to have someone new join! There is another member on the board with a current C2 gymnast that may be able to provide more insight but after reading the rules, it looks like a front handspring (FHS) dismount is allowed. The rules say that "any A dismount" can be performed without saltos, or flips. A FHS is not considered a salto (or a flip).

In my experience, when a gymnast performs an element that's not allowed at the level, the judge will reduce the start value to 9.6 (and display the reduced start value). She/he will often talks to the coach about why the start value was reduced between rotations. Has anything like this happened at the meets?

The other thing about C2 this year that should be considered is that cartwheels are now allowed on beam. In an effort to reward gymnasts who are performing this skill, I think judges have been taking content deductions for routines without CWs (particularly at meets later in the season).

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

A front handspring has hand support so it is not considered a salto. If it's a new skill, it's very possible form deductions are adding up.

But really, let the coach handle it! The coach saw the score, he or she knows what they are doing. And that's not always what scores the best, it's what's the best in the long run.

Let the gym stay in the gym and let home be her safe landing place; the last thing she needs is you stressing about it. Even if you think you are hiding your emotions from her, she will probably pick it up. Gym can be a stressful sport, she doesn't need your stress on top of that. It's OK to be interested, but to actually read in the code (heck, even I hate reading the code as a coach) shows that you might be a bit too invested in her succes. Just let her have fun

 

[John]

My DD did a front handspring in copper. I believe it's allowed. A beam score can turn down quickly with balance checks or missing an element. I only remember the handstand from copper. Possibly a leap or jump was missed?

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Welcome! My daughter is USAIGC Diamond and Silver bar specialist. I don’t know too much about CII specifically (we moved over from JO L5 two years ago), but a FHS beam dismount is definitely an A, so allowed in CII. As @KipWinger said, not doing the new upgrades (in this case, beam CW) is definitely getting deducted. We are seeing this in Bronze vs Diamond. There is language for “Content” and “Quality of Movement” that allows judges to differentiate routines. It’s definitely a little subjective...good luck and I can try to help if you have more IGC questions! There aren’t too many of us on CB.

 

[NY Dad]

Welcome! Happy to see another IGCer , there aren't many of us here. My dd is in C2. While I can't say for certain, I know I've seen plenty of dismounts like you've described with high scores. How did she do compared to everyone else? I've felt there has been some inconsistency regarding the harshness of judging from meet to meet.

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

Welcome! Happy to see another IGCer , there aren't many of us here. My dd is in C2. While I can't say for certain, I know I've seen plenty of dismounts like you've described with high scores. How did she do compared to everyone else? I've felt there has been some inconsistency regarding the harshness of judging from meet to meet.

Honestly, this last meet was the worst. I don't recall too many scores off hand but on the meetscoresonline.com page no one came in as low as she did.
We have been doing this awhile now. Its difficult to pinpoint what is going on..

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

A front handspring has hand support so it is not considered a salto. If it's a new skill, it's very possible form deductions are adding up.

But really, let the coach handle it! The coach saw the score, he or she knows what they are doing. And that's not always what scores the best, it's what's the best in the long run.

Let the gym stay in the gym and let home be her safe landing place; the last thing she needs is you stressing about it. Even if you think you are hiding your emotions from her, she will probably pick it up. Gym can be a stressful sport, she doesn't need your stress on top of that. It's OK to be inerested, but to actually read in the code (heck, even I hate reading the code as a coach) shows that you might be a bit too invested in her succes. Just let her have fun

We are not new to competing. With that being said, last year her coach had her doing illegal moves on her floor routine.... crazy.

Her gym is the ONLY gym thats not a 2.5 hour drive away. Lol.
Honestly if I say too much about the gym, I would guarantee there are some folks who would know exactly which one I'm talking about! I don't know too much about gymnastics but my daughter loves it. Unfortunately girls drop out like crazy at the gym and I have tried my best to make sure what hes telling her is "correct". I know it seems helicopterish but hes up there in age and I think he forgets some of the rules sometimes. I appreciate your advice though. Just trying to figure out what is going wrong with the beam.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

We are not new to competing. With that being said, last year her coach had her doing illegal moves on her floor routine.... crazy.

Her gym is the ONLY gym thats not a 2.5 hour drive away. Lol.
Honestly if I say too much about the gym, I would guarantee there are some folks who would know exactly which one I'm talking about! I don't know too much about gymnastics but my daughter loves it. Unfortunately girls drop out like crazy at the gym and I have tried my best to make sure what hes telling her is "correct". I know it seems helicopterish but hes up there in age and I think he forgets some of the rules sometimes. I appreciate your advice though. Just trying to figure out what is going wrong with the beam.

Ah okay. My own coach is 71 (I think he will retire after this season but he is saying that for 3 years already, so not sure what to believe anymore. That man just loves gymnastics too much) , so I totally get the forgetting rules thing.

I've just had too much experience with parents who are helicoptering. These are almost alway the parents who make their kids practice at home. I once had a kid tell me her mom spots her better than I do... But the parents who question every move I make are often the same ones.

Not saying you do any of those, but it did come across a bit like that in your OP. I am however not native English, so I do sometimes misunderstand when things get lost in translation.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. Of course it's great for parents to be involved, but there's a very fine line between the involved and interested parent and the crazy, I know better parent. From your second post, it seems like you fit into the first of those 2

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

Ah okay. My own coach is 71 (I think he will retire after this season but he is saying that for 3 years already, so not sure what to believe anymore. That man just loves gymnastics too much) , so I totally get the forgetting rules thing.

I've just had too much experience with parents who are helicoptering. These are almost alway the parents who make their kids practice at home. I once had a kid tell me her mom spots her better than I do... But the parents who question every move I make are often the same ones.

Not saying you do any of those, but it did come across a bit like that in your OP. I am however not native English, so I do sometimes misunderstand when things get lost in translation.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. Of course it's great for parents to be involved, but there's a very fine line between the involved and interested parent and the crazy, I know better parent. From your second post, it seems like you fit into the first of those 2

Haha! I don't take offense. Its difficult sometimes to find a balance between parent and "teacher/coach".

Its alot like school. I'm not a teacher but I'll help you understand the homework kinda thing....
I mostly listen to what he tells her and try to explain it to her. (He's a words kinda guy and her and i think in pictures). I wanted to ask a judge if the dismount was allowed but didn't dare! (Btw The judge small chatted a bit with us afterwards- I had helped her before for a meet.) I just didn't know if it was appropriate to ask her. Lol

I hadn't noticed other copper 2s doing it.Thanks for eliminating the dismount as the "problem". I think something must be terribly off just not sure what. I forgot to say... at one meet, a fellow gymnast (same age) from her team fell off the beam and they scored identical scores. Same routine too. Its difficult cause she just doesn't know what it could be. Her coach says "you were bent!" Which honestly is his response to everything roflmfao! Bars, beam, vault- "you were bent".

It sounds conceded as heck but she can't possibly be THAT terrible because she is usually 1st and 2nd place at every meet... the last 2 meets she finished 6th and 7th.. eeak.

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

Welcome! I'm pretty new myself but there aren't that many people from USAIGC here so it's nice to have someone new join! There is another member on the board with a current C2 gymnast that may be able to provide more insight but after reading the rules, it looks like a front handspring (FHS) dismount is allowed. The rules say that "any A dismount" can be performed without saltos, or flips. A FHS is not considered a salto (or a flip).

In my experience, when a gymnast performs an element that's not allowed at the level, the judge will reduce the start value to 9.6 (and display the reduced start value). She/he will often talks to the coach about why the start value was reduced between rotations. Has anything like this happened at the meets?

The other thing about C2 this year that should be considered is that cartwheels are now allowed on beam. In an effort to reward gymnasts who are performing this skill, I think judges have been taking content deductions for routines without CWs (particularly at meets later in the season).

Yup. Shes doing cartwheels AND the coach requires a 10 second or longer hand stand. Also leap is expected to be bigger than the required.

 

[KipWinger]

Yup. Shes doing cartwheels AND the coach requires a 10 second or longer hand stand. Also leap is expected to be bigger than the required.

A 10-second handstand!!! Maybe she’s going over the time limit.

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

Ps. You guys are great! I have looked around here many times but never registered. Glad I did!

 

[NY Dad]

10 second handstand? Yikes!!!

 

[Parkerinthevalley1]

A 10-second handstand!!! Maybe she’s going over the time limit.

Well....who knows if it actually last that long but that's the goal! In the past girls have been under time. There routine is almost 90 sec (I think)

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

Honestly scores are nuts sometimes. There are often times I as a coach think the score is way too high and some where I think a score is way too low. Sometimes its stricter judging, sometimes it isnt even that because one score will seem inflated while the next is deflated.

As a coach I do always know what to work on, regardless of how the scoring was.

And yes, my coach his favorite terms are ‘you have to stretch’ and ‘you have to go up’. He can often give clarification if you want to (coach, how do i stretch or how do i get up?). Your DD is still young, but meybe she would be willing to try it?

 

[Mrs. Puma]

Well....who knows if it actually last that long but that's the goal! In the past girls have been under time. There routine is almost 90 sec (I think)

90 seconds?! Well, there’s the problem! Lol Even most Gold routines aren’t that long. I know Diamond is 0:50-1:30 and most are around a minute. I’ll have to look up what CII is, but with that much time there is going to be tons of opportunities for deductions. Less is often more!

 

[_gym_wolf_]

Yup. Shes doing cartwheels AND the coach requires a 10 second or longer hand stand. Also leap is expected to be bigger than the required.

If she is doing a 10 second handstand chances are she is way outside the time limit which can result in up to a 3 to 5 tenth deduction. Maybe the problem is there, especially if the routine is 90 seconds? I would ask the coach about it because these things are important. Even though the coach should know what the gymnast needs, sometimes coaches can get blinded by wanting the hardest skills. I don't think it has anything to do with the dismount, unless the execution (form) wasn't as good as it needs to be. I am almost positive it had to do with time limit though.

 

[KipWinger]

The C2 time limit is 1:10 but there's only a 0.1 deduction for going overtime, according to IGC rules. I'm with @Mrs. Puma though, with a routine that long, there are many opportunities for deductions.

 

[sce]

Yup. Shes doing cartwheels AND the coach requires a 10 second or longer hand stand. Also leap is expected to be bigger than the required.

That is a really long hold. I don’t know usaigc but any lengthy pause in usag would be a deduction. While handstands need to be held, that us too long.