WAG Question about level 8 floor?

LJL07

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In two recent meets, I noticed that two girls got extremely high floor scores competing only two passes: one had a front handspring, front pike and the other had a front pike, front tuck. Both competed ro bhs 1/2s and not a full. Leap pass was switch leap, straddle for one girl and switch leap, tuck jump for the other. These girls both got 9.5+. They both had nice form and presentation. This is one of those times where gymnastics boggles my mind. My daughter is required to do three passes. She will be doing ro bhs full, front handspring, front layout, front tuck, and I think just a layout maybe for the third pass. Then a switch leap and a straddle jump that turns. It has a name, but it’s escaping me at the moment. So, this routine will have many more deductions. it’s pretty unlikely she will be getting a 9.5. My question is really how can judges compare these two types of routines? I know I sound like I’m making a dig, but this seems kind of unfair? And if her goal is to try to make it to regionals, which is pretty questionable this year anyways, what is the benefit of throwing these harder skills or more skills into her routine? I’m assuming the idea is that she will be better prepared for the next level. That last question is more hypothetical than anything given the current state of the world, but I’m still curious.
 
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Flicfliclay

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In two recent meets, I noticed that two girls got extremely high floor scores competing only two passes: one had a front handspring, front pike and the other had a front pike, front tuck. Both competed ro bhs 1/2s and not a full. Leap pass was switch leap, straddle for one girl and switch leap, tuck jump for the other. These girls both got 9.5+. They both had nice form and presentation. This is one of those times where gymnastics boggles my mind. My daughter is required to do three passes. She will be doing ro bhs full, front handspring, front layout, front tuck, and I think just a layout maybe for the third pass. Then a switch leap and a straddle jump that turns. It has a name, but it’s escaping me at the moment. So, this routine will have many more deductions. it’s pretty unlikely she will be getting a 9.5. My question is really how can judges compare these two types of routines? I know I sound like I’m making a dig, but this seems kind of unfair? And if her goal is to try to make it to regionals, which is pretty questionable this year anyways, what is the benefit of throwing these harder skills or more skills into her routine? I’m assuming the idea is that she will be better prepared for the next level. That last question is more hypothetical than anything given the current state of the world, but I’m still curious.
I always wondered that when watching meets. I was like well heck my daughter just did a double back and another would do a 1 1/2 front pike as their first pass... It is all about the gyms and many stick to the absolute basics to meet requirements and have their gymnasts perfect them. This not only happens on floor but also beam and bars! Basically even though your daughter has tougher skills they come with more deductions if they aren't absolutely perfect! That goes with that 3rd pass too! the more you do the more deductions you are open too. It ends up working out better for the kiddo sometimes that does more in the higher levels because they become more comfortable competing those skills.
 
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Carly

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Our gym did the same thing for level 7. It was definitely to help prepare for higher levels. It does seem unfair in a way but that needs to be taken up with the gym requiring it and not the judges. They judge what the girls do even if it's harder.

We saw a lot of girls doing much easier beam skills at level 7, like cartwheel/roundoff series and we were doing back walkover/bhs or bhs/bhs. We may or may not have received lower scores but the girls were more prepared for level 8 and beyond. So in theory, they should be getting higher scores at the higher levels.
 
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amanda.christine

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This doesn't sound right to me. First of all, for level 8 there is a requirement to have a 2 salto pass so in the first routine example you've given, there would be a .5 deduction for missing the 2 salto pass requirement and a .3 deduction for not having 3 saltos total in the routine.

There are also allowable deductions for the routine not being "up to competitive level" but it's only .2 each for tumbling and dance, so not a massive deduction and I'm not sure how it's specifically applied and if it would change from meet to meet depending on the quality of what's being performed there. I think there may be another general deduction for not being up to competitive standard, when I was in JO about 15 years ago I asked my coaches about doing 2 passes and was told I would get the deduction for not being competitive standard and that was stated as the reason I had to do 3. I'm not certified for USAG judging yet so I'm not sure if that's true, take it with a grain of salt and maybe someone else who's USAG certified can chime in.

And on another note, getting medals isn't necessarily the most important thing, especially if the gymnast's goals are more long term like competing at a college level. In this case, competing harder skills earlier does allow more time for developing muscle memory of those hard skills which can be really useful in the long run.
 

LJL07

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This doesn't sound right to me. First of all, for level 8 there is a requirement to have a 2 salto pass so in the first routine example you've given, there would be a .5 deduction for missing the 2 salto pass requirement and a .3 deduction for not having 3 saltos total in the routine.

There are also allowable deductions for the routine not being "up to competitive level" but it's only .2 each for tumbling and dance, so not a massive deduction and I'm not sure how it's specifically applied and if it would change from meet to meet depending on the quality of what's being performed there. I think there may be another general deduction for not being up to competitive standard, when I was in JO about 15 years ago I asked my coaches about doing 2 passes and was told I would get the deduction for not being competitive standard and that was stated as the reason I had to do 3. I'm not certified for USAG judging yet so I'm not sure if that's true, take it with a grain of salt and maybe someone else who's USAG certified can chime in.

And on another note, getting medals isn't necessarily the most important thing, especially if the gymnast's goals are more long term like competing at a college level. In this case, competing harder skills earlier does allow more time for developing muscle memory of those hard skills which can be really useful in the long run.
You mean the front handspring, front pike should have the deductions, right? I guess the routine that had the front pike, front tuck does fulfill the requirements. Yes, I don't know what's going on. I have noticed in general this year that the scores are overly high at the few meets we have had. Things that would normally get deductions on bars and beam are getting pretty high scores.

It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's just a little annoying knowing going into the meet that a routine that has a bunch of things in it will likely score lower than a routine that is easier.
 

amanda.christine

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You mean the front handspring, front pike should have the deductions, right? I guess the routine that had the front pike, front tuck does fulfill the requirements. Yes, I don't know what's going on. I have noticed in general this year that the scores are overly high at the few meets we have had. Things that would normally get deductions on bars and beam are getting pretty high scores.

It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's just a little annoying knowing going into the meet that a routine that has a bunch of things in it will likely score lower than a routine that is easier.

Yes, the font handspring front pike combo along with just a back layout 1/2 with no other saltos should be at least .8 off the routine total. Very weird that the judges didn't count it and wound up scoring her so high. If I were a gymnast competing against them that would definitely frustrate me a lot to feel like I was putting in a lot of effort and people doing the bare minimum or not even that were scoring higher, but I think in the long run it's worth it for the experience. But in this particular case it sounds like there's also an issue of inattentive judging.
 

Aussie_coach

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Start value deductions aside, every skill is a risk. Quite often the skills you put in add less to the start value than the deductions they would receive in errors doing the skill. Sometimes it’s worth going for a lower start value, if the harder skills are going to drag the execution score down.
 
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pt coach

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We do two passes for almost all of our level 8s and generally receive very high scores on floor. The goal is to compete both passes with a double salto connection. Ideally this is front layout front pike and then back 1.5 punch front. This positions them well for level 9 and connection bonus. However, not everyone competes the ideal tumbling, and some, including my daughter did more basic tumbling and still scored well as the tumbling and dance had little deduction. For example my daughter did front pike step out through to a back layout and a round off back 1/2 (was supposed to be back 1/2 punch front but that never happened). She lost around .1 or .15 for up to the level and still scored between 9.3 - 9.5 at most meets. Very clean dance, leaps, turns etc. It worked for her, especially since she knew she was going to go to Xcel Diamond and not level 9 the following year.

Years ago we had a level 10 who competed two passes. They were the only two passes she could do really well and she met the basic requirements with them. (I can't remember exactly what she did for those passes). She scored in the 9.2-9.3 range.
 

gymgal

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A clean routine with all it's requirements will almost always score higher than a routine with added requirements but less clean. IT is up to the gymnast and the coach to decide what is more important - extra time competing higher level skills/sequences to prep for the next seson or perfecting clean routines that will score higher. It used to frustrate some of our gym's parents as well but it is not like the other gymnast is going against the rules. There is nothing that states (all the way through college) that you have to have 3 passes. Personally, I have found that gymnasts who are scoring in/above the 9.5 range would score similarly with either 2 pass or 3 pass routines because their form is excellent. Their coaches rightfully choose to reduce the chance of injury and deductions.

ETA My dd was one who benefited from doing 3 pass routines at the lower levels as it improved her confidence once she reached L9/10 (though her scores suffered), but for the majority of gymnasts, I do not necessarily agree with the 3 pass routines if the requirements can be fulfilled in 2. In the end, she did several 2 pass routines due to injuries and scored better with those as she was always fatigued by the third pass and got huge deductions.
 
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PeanutsMom

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You mean the front handspring, front pike should have the deductions, right? I guess the routine that had the front pike, front tuck does fulfill the requirements. Yes, I don't know what's going on. I have noticed in general this year that the scores are overly high at the few meets we have had. Things that would normally get deductions on bars and beam are getting pretty high scores.

It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It's just a little annoying knowing going into the meet that a routine that has a bunch of things in it will likely score lower than a routine that is easier.
I keep getting stuck on the "the few meets we have had"...that would be amazing! We haven't had meets, been in lockdowns and facing gym closures. In this weird COVID world, you said you have noticed the scores seem high. Maybe its because the judges know that there have been many many upheavals and are being more generous (especially early on ) than they would have in the past. I know my DD would love to be competing.
 

LJL07

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I keep getting stuck on the "the few meets we have had"...that would be amazing! We haven't had meets, been in lockdowns and facing gym closures. In this weird COVID world, you said you have noticed the scores seem high. Maybe its because the judges know that there have been many many upheavals and are being more generous (especially early on ) than they would have in the past. I know my DD would love to be competing.
I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to a hit a nerve. You are absolutely right. This is something that has happened quite a bit in previous seasons with generous scoring in our area for clean "easier" routines, so maybe I should have qualified my question by stating "under normal circumstances." I don't want to get into specifics, but our meet "schedule" has changed completely since I posted that. I hope your daughter gets to have some semblance of a season this year.