Behavioral Issues in the Gym

[gymdog]

Okay....feedback. I feel like that is pretty darn specific. It feels kind of silly to go into that much detail but maybe this is the level she needs. I'm open to suggestions for modification before printing and discussing with her coach.

I think it's good to have established as an overall thing, but I'd also come up with a few essential rules she can repeat back. My big ones are "Do not let your body touch anyone else's" and "Feet walking on the carpet/floor" (by this I mean not walking on equipment so that is explained and they get that).

The right expectations can help but it's a long process. I work with kids who aren't neurotypical and I have used simple systems before, but it takes consistency and patience. I guess I didn't necessarily get from your OP that there were concerns about ADD/ADHD or how deep the issues went, but if you are concerned about that an evaluation wouldn't hurt. However, I'm not sure it really is out of the range of normal. It's difficult to tell, but if I were you, I would follow your gut and then re-evaluate every so often.

 

[marie83]

to keep it short and simple, I think your list should be pretty much what the coach SHOULD expect and command anyway! Even with our pre-schoolers (3 - 41/2 yrs old) we have pretty much all of those rules! We reinforce them every session with pre-schoolers and beginners and by the time they make juniors or team they know them (regardless of whether they follow them, but that is up to the coach to reinforce!)

I honestly feel for you, and feel that the coach really should be backing you up, just as you would back her up if you were asked to, I'm sure.

Do you think it would be good for Bella to help you come up with the rules, so you can find out what she thinks is acceptable behaviour? It might make her realise when she is doing something wrong and give her some sort of 'ownership' of the rules. This could be something the whole team/gym do together to be honest, but that would have to come from the hc!

Good Luck!

 

[Sarah'sMom]

Very nice list! You may want to see if you can shorten and simply if a bit though so your daughter has the best chance possible to reminder the rules. For instance, look for common threads and see if you can develop a simple rule to cover as many situations as possible. One might be - No running in the gym unless the coach has asked you to. Here's the original list I started with my daughter, it's not quite the 20 I thought I had:

Pay attention to your coach – do what she says to do
Watch the other students while you wait your turn (this one isn't a critical one for me, but I've explained to her that she can learn from watching the others and listening to the coach teach the others)
Wait your turn patiently (this one is general unfortunately).
Do not distract the coach while she's working with another student – no “Watch me”
Do not play with ropes, banners or any other item
Only one person at a time on the bars
Stay out of the way when another person is on the bars
Share the beam, or bars when you are told to share
No pouting during class – you will be ignored and lose your turn
Stay off the tumble track and trampoline when it is another person's turn
Do not boss any other person around
Stay off the carpet for the vault when another person is trying to vault
Do not play on equipment – stay where you were told to be
No running up and down the side of the tumble track
If you have a conflict with another student in class ignore it if possible. If you can't ignore it, come to me.
Treat others as you would want them to treat you

The last one is admittedly general but I want to start drilling that into her head so she becomes more and more considerate of others. That awareness in general, in my opinion, addresses so many issues.

As to the conflict with others, I am trying to teach her not to sweat the small stuff and if she can't handle it to come to me so that coach can teach and not resolve conflicts between kids. So, for the small stuff, I ask her to ignore it if someone cuts ahead of her. In reality she only waits less than a minute more and although I would like her to stand up for herself in life, I think at six for this activity, she should not sweat the small stuff.

As for the instruction not to say "watch me! watch me!" I told Sarah that if she was doing what she was supposed to be doing and kept working on it the coach will always see. She doesn't need to call out the coaches attention - that and reminding her how it feels if the coach is interrupted by someone when the coach is spotting her and the importance of the coach's full attention while spotting.

Be prepared to have to modify your list - add to it or amend to it. The reference to your daughter being literal is probably right on = so she might find "loopholes" that you will need to cover.

Honestly, I did not do a strike 3 times you're out approach, although I think that is not a bad idea. I watched carefully and one or two minor infractions I let go, but if I thought she was pushing it, I had her sit out. I felt that if I busted her on the minor stuff and she started to feel like she was under a microscope that I might make it worse. Also, she is not perfect, nor can I expect her to be. But she can not be misbehaved. I also, btw, kept my list of rules to myself. I did not want another parent, student or even the coach, actually, questioning my system or nitpicking my daughter. The coach, though, did know I was pulling my daughter out if I thought she needed a reminder or some time out to reflect.

For me, the big thing was reminders, reminders, reminders until I knew she had a good grasp. We may be needing a bit of a review lately though, which I will do before long to keep our good progress.

One other thing, if your daughter is like mine and she thrives on competition and attention and really wants to be part of a team.... I took my daughter to watch a competition or two of the older girls and pointed out to her how they sit quietly and wait their turn patiently without causing any problems. I also have told her that a coach will not put her on a team if she can't be trusted to act the same way. I even told her that the judges take points off if the girls misbehave (although not technically, I'm sure misbehaving can definitely alter a judge's perception or get a child disqualified.)

 

[Sarah'sMom]

I also had a reward chart and would give my daughter 1 sticker for a good class and 2 stickers for an excellent class (all behavior based - not skill accomplishment). And, if she filled the chart she got an open gym. I did that for a little bit when we started and it helped a lot (and didn't offer me giving her material items). The gym stopped their open gym though but my daughter continued her good behavior. I've also pointed out observations that I think would help her reason that the good behavior is a good thing, such as how the coach does more and more challenging things with her when she is behaving.

 

[Sarah'sMom]

Aussie_coach,

I'm so glad that you posted what you posted about highly intelligent children being mistaken sometimes for having ADHD. The term gifted is what the schools here use and most people think of a child who is a budding rocket scientist who goes to college at 12 years of age. But its not just these kids, who are rare, but it is children of above average intelligence who as you say, Aussie_coach, catch on to what they are being taught quickly. As you point out, a lot of these kids get bored in school very easily, and I think when they are bored in school and they do not receive intellectual challenge somewhere, they can act out in places and times when they shouldn't. Anyway, here's a link on the difference:

Link Removed

Btw, I am not saying there are not children with ADHD who truly need help.

The sort of behavior you describe is not unusual in a child her age. Every child develops different skills at different times. Kids like your daughter often develop some skills earlier than usual and others later. It seems she is above her years in coordination and intelligence. But self control can be slow to develop, lots of kids at 6 or 7 still have very, very limited amounts of self control. Concepts of fairness and consequences are hard to understand at this age, you are not doing anything wrong as a parent. She is simply not ready to understand all of these concepts.

Kids her age live in the moment, they do what feels right at the time, they aren't yet capable of delayed gratification. They can't think "OK well I'll work hard now, and I'll see the results in a few months", or "I'll behave now, because I will have consequences later".

Her intelligence may also be an issue. many very highly intelligent kids are mistaken as having ADHD, these are the signs of a high intelligent child and you'll find a big crossover between these signs and ADHD symptoms.
1. Very high energy levels
2. Require less sleep than other kids her age
3. An almost adult sense of humour well beyond her years
4. Picks up on concepts very quickly almost like she always knew them
5. language very developed for age
6. Motor milestones ahead of her age
7. Needs constant stimulation to keep her interest, the brain needs more stimulation than the average child.

Highly intelligent kids are very active, especially at her age. They get bored quickly and will be disruptive. Many have never had to try in their life to do anything and pick things up so quickly that they don't really understand what it means to actually try. They will just play up if they have to put any effort in, because they are used to just getting it straight away.

It also seems interesting that your childs coach ignores bad behaviour and hopes it will just go away, but your daughter will keep at it until she can't be ignored. It means your daughter loves attention of course as do many girls her age, but she keeps trying to get it by doing the wrong thing. This often means that it is too difficult to earn attention from doing the right thing. Think about it from her point of view. If a child is well behaved, it might be recognized and it might not, often it is not rewarded until say the end of the week or after a long time of good behavior. While bad behavior can almost guarantee immediate attention, or attention if she pushes it far enough. Does this coach give as much praise and attention for good behavior?

If you are unhappy with gym consequences, give your own. If she misbehaves at gym then its home to bed early with no treats or television, its likely she will test you a bit if you put such consequences in place but stand firm and she will soon get the idea.

 

[talyngrace]

I would simply tell my child that this behaviour is not acceptable and the next time I see it she will be taken home immediately. Tell the coach your plan, explaining what you told us here.

Then the first time you see the bad behaviour happen walk over and remove her from the class. Drive home and then explain calmly that you will not allow her to be a bully/be dangerous and that she will not get to do gym until she learns to keep herself in contriol.

Next class do the same thing, she will either learn really quick that you mean business or she will end up with no gym.

I know it sucks to see your kid acting up, but she is doing it because she is getting away with it. It will continue as long as you allow it. The coach isn't fixing it, so it is your job to step in. The last thing you want is for your kid to be labelled as a troublemaker.

She is exactly right. Do just that, and if your child doesnt respond then pull her from gym.... If she loves gymnastics then she will listen to you.

 

[NGL780309]

I just wanted to ask if you feel like her coach does a good job of keeping her and the others busy? When I read your list of rules for your DD for each event it reminded me very much of my DD a year ago. I swear the difference is remarkable in my DD now that she is challenged and very busy. There really isn't any downtime for her between her turn with the coach. She doesn't have time to be silly. Everything is very structured and organized. My DD would often feed off other kid's behavior too. If everyone else is listening and paying attention she would too. If even one other child was acting up she'd be pulled into that behavior. Because the practice is so structured and the behavior expectations are so clear, everyone is on task and DD follows along.

I'm not trying to say that your coaches aren't doing a good job, just that maybe she needs a more structured environment. I've noticed that my DD will rise to whatever level of expectation is there behavior wise and skillwise. Her old gym/coach had little expectations for behavior or quality of gymnastics. I'd get frustrated with DD because she'd just slop through everything. That is unexceptable at her new gym so she has no problem with it whatsoever. When I would take DD to her old gym I'd give her the behavior/working hard speech every practice. I'd have to remind her of so many of the things you listed. When you are in line waiting you must keep your hands to yourself, pay attention, stay in line, don't flip around, etc. It was exhausting for me. She wouldn't cut in line, but she get out of line and the older kids would just go around her and she's miss her turn completely. Or she'd be turned around talking and being goofy and realize at the last second it was her turn and then just hurl herself into whatever skill they are doing while laughing. When we changed gyms I started the little speech one day when we were almost there and she stopped me and told me I didn't need to tell her that anymore because this gym makes you work hard and they won't let her be lazy.

 

[Bella's Mom]

@NGL.....

I do feel like her coach keeps them busy. Before our ownership change, and before Bella was on team track, she did have a coach that was just horrible about this. She has 4YOs and would set up these courses and would walk one girl through the whole course while the other girls sat on the mat. It killed Bella and she really acted out. Even I, in all my little kid ignorance, could see the flaw in this system.

Her current coach does not make this mistake. There is no down time...unless you're Bella and you just decide that it is more fun to flop than to do your station.

Last night, I did call and talk to the owner of the gym asking if she would have Bella's coach call me. She said she would of course but asked me about my concerns. We talked for a few minutes and she said that she wasn't seeing a problem to the extent that I am and that Miss Christina hadn't voiced any irritation or frustration to her. Of course, that makes me feel conflicted. On one hand, I'm relieved that others don't dread when my child walks into the gym. But then again, it makes me feel wierd about myself. Am I being too harsh? Are my expectations not in line with my child's developmental level? Am I overanalyzing the entire situation (I have a history of doing such things).

At this point, my plan is to talk to Bella about my long list of rules but give her the KISS rules that Bog suggested. After all, I can live with swinging under the beam if that means she isn't shoving her teammate across the floor. When I talk to her coach (tomorrow or Monday during privates), I'll just explain that I would like for Bella to be sent out if she is breaking the rules and reiterate that I am not trying to usurp her authority or interfere with her coaching.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Aussie_coach,

I'm so glad that you posted what you posted about highly intelligent children being mistaken sometimes for having ADHD. The term gifted is what the schools here use and most people think of a child who is a budding rocket scientist who goes to college at 12 years of age. But its not just these kids, who are rare, but it is children of above average intelligence who as you say, Aussie_coach, catch on to what they are being taught quickly. As you point out, a lot of these kids get bored in school very easily, and I think when they are bored in school and they do not receive intellectual challenge somewhere, they can act out in places and times when they shouldn't. Anyway, here's a link on the difference:

Link Removed

Btw, I am not saying there are not children with ADHD who truly need help.

Gifted kids are often misunderstood, ADHD kids are also often misunderstood, this is why there can be frequent problems recognizing them.

In this particular situation the child seems to have all the characteristics of being gifted so its important to look at that before considering a diagnosis. Of course children can be both gifted and have ADHD but both entities need to be looked at together and separately. Does one explain the problem on its own or not? Often ADHD is diagnosed too quickly, there are many genuine cases of ADHD in need of genuine help, but many childhood difficulties have symptoms that can be similar or almost identical to ADHD but its actually a whole different problem. We don't do justice to our children without looking very thoroughly into a diagnosis. I have seen kids treated with Ritalin who in fact needed a hearing aide for example.

Conditions with overlapping symptoms include - ADHD, Autism spectrum disorders, aspergers syndrome, giftedness, learning difficulties, hyperthyroidism, lead poisoning, hearing problems, vision problems, petit mal epilsepsy, intellectual impairment, anxiety disorder, Tourette's syndrome, Bi polar disorder, Dysthymia, Obsessive compulsive Disorder, food intolerance, Oppositional defiance disorder, conduct disorder, childhood disintegrative disorder and so many more. In children many of these disorders present in a similar fashion with behavioral problems, that is often how kids difficulties are expressed. It takes a thorough examination by a qualified and experience physician to make sure a child has the correct diagnosis and treatment.

Each country and time has its favorite, the USA diagnosis ADHD 3 times more frequently than most other western countries. In Australia Autism is the most popular and is diagnosed more often than ADHD. If you go for an evaluation make sure it is thorough. If a condition is diagnosed in one session then look for another doctor.

 

[Aussie_coach]

@NGL.....

I do feel like her coach keeps them busy. Before our ownership change, and before Bella was on team track, she did have a coach that was just horrible about this. She has 4YOs and would set up these courses and would walk one girl through the whole course while the other girls sat on the mat. It killed Bella and she really acted out. Even I, in all my little kid ignorance, could see the flaw in this system.

Her current coach does not make this mistake. There is no down time...unless you're Bella and you just decide that it is more fun to flop than to do your station.

Last night, I did call and talk to the owner of the gym asking if she would have Bella's coach call me. She said she would of course but asked me about my concerns. We talked for a few minutes and she said that she wasn't seeing a problem to the extent that I am and that Miss Christina hadn't voiced any irritation or frustration to her. Of course, that makes me feel conflicted. On one hand, I'm relieved that others don't dread when my child walks into the gym. But then again, it makes me feel wierd about myself. Am I being too harsh? Are my expectations not in line with my child's developmental level? Am I overanalyzing the entire situation (I have a history of doing such things).

At this point, my plan is to talk to Bella about my long list of rules but give her the KISS rules that Bog suggested. After all, I can live with swinging under the beam if that means she isn't shoving her teammate across the floor. When I talk to her coach (tomorrow or Monday during privates), I'll just explain that I would like for Bella to be sent out if she is breaking the rules and reiterate that I am not trying to usurp her authority or interfere with her coaching.

Its normal for a parent to see these issue's more than a coach. When its your child you notice everything, every little step out of line, because its your child. You notice it more and you feel more strongly about it, thats being a parent. Also you have a few children or 1. A coach deals with kids your childs age daily and often many of them. They see these behaviors more frequently and feel they are more normal.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

I think it's good- my advice focus on what she should DO instead of what you don't want her to to:

Eaxmples:
-Wait in Line
-Listen to coach
-Take your turn
-Visit all stations
-Keep hands to yourself
-Walk from station to station

Just a thought. I think you are a great mom!!!!

 

[Bella's Mom]

I think it's good- my advice focus on what she should DO instead of what you don't want her to to:

Eaxmples:
-Wait in Line
-Listen to coach
-Take your turn
-Visit all stations
-Keep hands to yourself
-Walk from station to station

Just a thought. I think you are a great mom!!!!

You are right. In all of my angst over the situation, I forgot about this basic rule. Thank you for reminding me. Explain what she should do rather than what she is not to do.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

whew. if someone new comes on chalkbucket they might think this thread is a call for contraception. *toungueincheeksmilewinkwinkjoke*

 

[lhmom]

Great advice, gymgirlsmom. I had actually come online this AM to post this. Also, it's good to keep it simple and attainable. You want her to feel like she's accomplishing her goals. Good luck! I know how frustrating this behavior can be.

 

[10.0]

whew. if someone new comes on chalkbucket they might think this thread is a call for contraception. *toungueincheeksmilewinkwinkjoke*

I get my daily dose of this at Walmart, and some of the kids at the gym help!

 

[Sarah'sMom]

If you think she is misbehaving she is, and you should handle it as you deem appropriate. You're only helping your daughter. Plus, if they are just being patient with her that could wear thing. Better to be a little too strict then risk Bella not being able to realize whatever her dreams are.

[Last night, I did call and talk to the owner of the gym asking if she would have Bella's coach call me. She said she would of course but asked me about my concerns. We talked for a few minutes and she said that she wasn't seeing a problem to the extent that I am and that Miss Christina hadn't voiced any irritation or frustration to her. Of course, that makes me feel conflicted. On one hand, I'm relieved that others don't dread when my child walks into the gym. But then again, it makes me feel wierd about myself. Am I being too harsh? Are my expectations not in line with my child's developmental level? Am I overanalyzing the entire situation (I have a history of doing such things).]

 

[coachinkal]

My DS has ADHD and has been medicated for 16 months. He will be 10yo in July. I struggled with the decision to medicate, it was not an easy one. Since being medicated there has been a huge change in every aspect of his life; socially, academically, at gym, at other sports, at home. I have been his coach for 5 years and there have been many very challenging times. We still have occasional problems but mainly in the last 30 mins of training when his meds are starting to wear out.
He had a huge amount of difficulty with impulse control.
I like your shortened list. Good to go over the long list as a general sit down discussion, but focus on the shorter list on a daily basis. It will be interesting to see how well your DD can keep to the rules.
My DS knew all the rules. We went over and over and over them. He just could not control his impulses. He just could not stop and think before he acted. Your list of what your DD must not do (the long one) sounded like the list of what my DS would do before he was medicated. I almost laughed at how accurate it was, but it was not funny when he was like that! It was not that he was deliberately naughty, in fact if you asked him why he had done something after he had done it he had no idea, there was no pre thought.
By the time my DS got to about 8yo it was easier to compare differences in activity level, impulse control and behaviour with other kids his age. I am really glad that he was medicated when he was because it has taken 16 months for him to bridge the social gap with his peers. Now he is treated just like every other kid, and has many friends. This was not the case before he was medicated. I think in the classroom it becomes more obvious that a child has ADHD/ADD by the time they are around 8yo as by that age most other children are starting to control some of their behaviour, a child with ADHD/ADD cannot control their behaviour in the same way. Every child is different and any two children with ADHD/ADD are not the same.

 

[CreateMagic]

Bella's Mom,
I liked your list. Overall, you repeated the same rules four times-- wait your turn, walk to your place, keep your hands to yourself, wait for the teacher to be ready for you. Although many have said to make a single, shorter list, I think your 5 rules per event may be the best initial approach, if it is introduced right. Could you, at first, talk to her when they are switching events and remind her of the rules for that event? Maybe do a sticker chart for the 5 rules and give her a sticker for the five from the previous event, finishing with a reminder for the next event. Then, after a few days, have the coach be the one to do a quick reminder, transitioning to Bella telling the coach what the rules of the event are. Reinforce 5 small things frequently instead of a longer (but overall fewer) list only at the beginning of practice.

As for the ADHD--success (or lack of) is not necessarily an good indicator of ADHD. Being gifted does not mean that the disorder is not present. I was a very strong student, usually reading several grade levels above where I should have been, I was always looking for more challenges in math, etc. I was actually tested (family member training to administer the test used me as her guinea pig for testing) and found to be gifted. However--remembering where I put my pencil? Finding anything in my desk? Noticing my shoe was untied? Not within my radar. I never got in trouble for disrupting class, but I did get quite a few reminders about not talking to my friends. Nothing stood out in elementary school besides my over activity at home, but my whole family's like that. In middle school and high school, my academics continued to be fine, but I noticed that my relationships with peers was different-- the losing pencils/disorganization/untied shoes in elementary school became, well, losing pencils/disorganization (difficult having friends over if you lose the invites or your bedroom looks like a tornado went though it at all times)/ lack of understanding of complex teen rituals (makeup? why? fashion? don't get it?), and I had a hard time keeping up with longer, complex conversations--I'd lose my train of thought, forget what others were talking about, etc. I finally got diagnosed in college, when all my "strategies" that helped me slide though school failed--I had no study skills, couldn't sit for extended periods of time to complete very lengthy papers, and I now had the added responsibility of living on my own--mom wasn't going to find that book I lost, or my keys, or my ID. Best decision of my life and I wish it had been done earlier. I can't imagine how much easier my teen years would have been if I could have been able to focus. 7 years later, and I am a successful teacher and coach, and very happy.

I'm not saying that your daughter has ADHD. Only a trained professional can make that diagnosis, and I have never met your daughter in any case. I just wanted to point out that gifted and ADHD are not mutually exclusive.

Good luck with your new system!!!

 

[Bella's Mom]

Update.....

Bella's coach called and we are going to meet (all three of us) on Monday for a few minutes before her private on Monday. Her coach was very supportive of whatever approach I wanted to take. She has the "takes a village" approach to children which made me feel really hopeful. She concurred with what many of you are saying about getting in hand sooner rather than later but also reassured me that it was bothering me more than it was bothering her.

On Thursday night, Bella and I sat down and talked about gym. I asked her yet again if she wanted to do gym or if she wanted to try some other activities....did she want to cut back on practice times, try another class, another gym, etc. She assured me that she loves her coach and her gym and was never going to quit gym. I used my big list to sort of guide the conversation without actually reading each line. She told me that she has decided to model the behavior of one of the older girls on her team because she wanted to get moved up.

Friday night on the way to gym, I casually reminded Bella about our five rules and she acted impatient to show me that she remembered and she would do better. Kid did put her money where her mouth was. She had an amazing practice. It helped that they didn't work beam last night which is the apparatus that she usually falls apart on. She hit her mill circle over and over and didn't waste energy and time with silly floppy stuff. She even started working on a new bar skill (where they jump from low bar to high bar?). Scared me to death but it really showed how she gets to do more stuff when she is on task. She sat quietly when she was supposed to and hit every single station on all three apparatuses they worked.

I was so proud of her and she really needed to have a good practice. Now to make this a habit rather than a fluke.....

Again thanks so much for all the advice and support.

Oh...as far as the ADHD stuff.... after speaking to her teacher and coach, I don't feel like she really fits the criteria for diagnosis but at her physical in May, I will speak to her pediatrician about it. She is a bright child but I don't feel like she could be labeled as gifted. Her teacher felt like her attention in academics was fine and she doesn't struggle with homework at home. Her teacher felt like she was a pretty typical bright child who is social and likes to giggle and talk.

 

[CreateMagic]

So glad to hear things went well! Go Bella!