Random judging makes teachin vault neary impossible

[CoachTodd]

I had 2 different meets this weekend. One was a high school meet one was a regular USAG prep opt and optionals meet.
I have a couple of girls on my 2 high school teams that are very good vaulters. 4 of them have competed level 7 or higher and scored 9.5 or better on front handspring vaults. In NC the high schools compete at a Prep 1 level which is basically level 6 type skills so they do a front hand spring vault. I stood and watched my vaulters.
Vaulter 1. Nice tight form, feet together, block about 2 feet off the table
Vaulter 2. better form, not quite as much block
Vaulter 3. Explosive off the board and table, tight straight body, block 3 feet above the table, land 5 feet from the table

Vaulter 4. Spring board entry sounds like an atomic blast, block is 6 to 7 feet above the table, slight over hollow shape in post flight to kill rotation, sticks landing 10 feet past the end of the table.

Vaulter from other school in same rotation. Ok on board, slight bounce over table, maybe 6 inches of block off the table, stuck landing about 2 feet from the table, over all form was clean


Scores:
Vaulter 1: normally scores in the 9.3 range--- 8.4
Vaulter 2: normally scores in the 9.4 range--- 8.45
Vaulter 3: normally score 9.55 or better --- 8.6
Vaulter 4: normally score 3 tenths higher than anyone else vaulting. Normally 9.6 or better --- 9.2

Vaulter from other team---- 9.8 and first all around on vault. Even the coach from the other team was confused.


Next day vaulter 4 competed her front handspring front tuck. We are still working some slight form issues but she's been scoring 9.2 on the vault consistently. She sticks her second vault and gets an 8.95. I have the chance to ask the judge about it and she told me there was a pretty big deduction for the "arch" in the support phase. I just gave up at this point.

Even the handstand flatback vaults were random. I had the chance to watch another teams' vaults while my girls were on floor and the scores made no sense. If the stayed hollow the entire time, they scored better. If the bounced with nice power and came in at a nice low angle with a straight body, they scored lower. I even watched their runs to make sure that wasn't a deciding factor.

I guess in a nut shell, I've seen vaults that would be scoring entire points higher if they were done 4 years ago. Anyone have any idea what in the world the judges are looking at in vault?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Next day vaulter 4 competed her front handspring front tuck. We are still working some slight form issues but she's been scoring 9.2 on the vault consistently. She sticks her second vault and gets an 8.95. I have the chance to ask the judge about it and she told me there was a pretty big deduction for the "arch" in the support phase. I just gave up at this point.

Did the judge seriously say this?

I don't know if I would have laughed out loud or cried.

 

[gymdog]

I sometimes have a hard time with vault at the lower levels too (optional vaulting always seems pretty consistent to me, at least around here). Though, front fronts probably tend to score lower compared to yurchenkos at L9/10 because they seem predisposed to a little bit more form issues (legs apart in the preflight, slightly bent legs or early tuck, etc).

With compulsories, to me, and I'm not a judge so I mean, I admit that, sometimes it seems to me that the score range is off. The best vaults are scoring fairly low at this point in the season, which is fine...but it seems like the "average" vaults aren't coming in far behind.

As far as high school, in my state, the judging quality is not overall comparable to USAG. I don't want to be harsh but it's just not. There just isn't the training and education and oversight. Which is fine. Certainly there are some very consistent judges. But sometimes the judging on one event might be inconsistent. Also, I laugh at accusations of "favoritism" type politics in USAG, because until you've done high school gym here...ha. Again, most of the time, fine. Sometimes, no.

 

[CoachTodd]

Did the judge seriously say this?

I don't know if I would have laughed out loud or cried.

Yep.
2 of them. They liked her first vault better but she fell but it didn't have the arch. I felt like saying that's why she fell. If she'd have arched a little she would have gotten higher and rotated faster. I just said OK and left.
I asked another judge about it who is also a coach at a rival gym and she thought they were nuts.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm impressed by your restraint. I would have raised hell.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

as i've said before, they couldn't judge girls vaulting correctly if their life depended on it. all you can hope for, is at the end of the day, the best vaulter won.

 

[T.Gymnastics]

I'm impressed by your restraint. I would have raised hell.

Me too! my one coach (who primarily (sp?) coaches vault) would have said something to the judges and then probably complained the ears off the state chairman. I am competing level 7 USAG so usually the girl with the biggest block wins overall. The form does matter, but usually, at least within my team the largest blocker scores highest.

 

[gymdog]

In a USAG meet your best bet is probably to just submit a score inquiry at the time. There's virtually no way they're going to change a score unless there was an error in calculation or something along those lines. Or if the kid is .1 short of qualifying to states or something. I really do not think I have ever seen a judge raise a score because a coach made a fuss about their "interpretation" of applicable deductions. I understand that in boy's competitive the judges may be somewhat more approachable (this I have noticed at our mixed invite) but on the girl's side it really tends to be quite formal. I've heard stories of USAG higher ups trying to correct errors in applying certain deductions and receiving resistance. These things might suck but I think you handled it correctly. We need to be realistic about what options we have.

I would not make much fuss at a meet. Sometimes these things happen. After the meet you could contact your RTC as they have a lot of insight and influence over optional judging in the region. I know our RTC takes questions really well and would consider any issues that regularly cropping up in judging like this and try to address them. But if this was just a one time thing I don't think that it would be worth burning any bridges over, or that much could be done, short of if a judge had a reputation for wacky scoring they hopefully wouldn't be assigned to states or regionals.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

if a judge had a reputation for wacky scoring they hopefully wouldn't be assigned to states or regionals.

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thanks, I needed that

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Vaulter 1. Nice tight form, feet together, block about 2 feet off the table
Vaulter 2. better form, not quite as much block
Vaulter 3. Explosive off the board and table, tight straight body, block 3 feet above the table, land 5 feet from the table

Vaulter 4. Spring board entry sounds like an atomic blast, block is 6 to 7 feet above the table, slight over hollow shape in post flight to kill rotation, sticks landing 10 feet past the end of the table.
Scores:
Vaulter 1: normally scores in the 9.3 range--- 8.4
Vaulter 2: normally scores in the 9.4 range--- 8.45
Vaulter 3: normally score 9.55 or better --- 8.6
Vaulter 4: normally score 3 tenths higher than anyone else vaulting. Normally 9.6 or better --- 9.2

It also appears that the judges from previous competitions can't differentiate between average, good and great. Vaulter 4 is being ripped off, if her team mate is only .3-.5 from her.

 

[gymch34]

Its frustrating, but I feel like vault scoring at compolsories is much more crazy & inconsistent. We just have to keep coaching the best we can, and work WITH the judges to help w/ their education. I had one judge last year tell me my gymnasts yurchenko was too archy in the bhs phase. I was like... whhhaaat?

I also would never make a scene at a meet. Its very unprofessional & immature. We need to teach our athletes that sometimes we disagree w others, but we must still show respect & act appropriately. The only way gto truly do that is through modeling the correct behavior when we are upset or frustrated.

 

[gymdog]

Compulsories are a little different but in my state I would say there are typically few judging issues at the optional state meet. Typically it is our most experienced judges and they are very consistent. The smaller invites vary. Even for compulsory state it is relatively predictable what judges will likely be there. Again tend to be more experienced ones. I do not coach prep opt and have never competed in it so I don't know about what happens there. Here our prep opt state meet will be separate and it is a very new program, hard to establish many patterns yet.

 

[gracefulone]

Vault seems like its an odd event to judge because it happens so fast.