WAG USAG TOPs 2000 note to gymnasts

[Deleted member 18037]

Would you tell a sexual assault victim that them being assaulted 17 years ago no longer matters???

If you read all my posts concerning the matter then you know I'm crystal clear that abusing children matters very much and is not to be tolerated.

A blog post publishing a letter 17 yrs old, is old news

You haven't been around this sport as long as some, so you might not see how this awful situation has shifted the conversation. The more we bring to light and discuss this kind of stuff in our community, the harder it is to dismiss the red flags in a sport where the power dynamic has historically leaned away from the parents and kids.

I haven't been around as long as some in gymnastics. But I have been around kids for a really long time. Gymnastics is not so complicated or unique that keeping kids safe and having policies in place are that different that is beyond understanding to some not in the sport for years.

And I have around here long enough to realize things clearly need to change. Because before this story broke and on some discussions around here I expressed shock that little kids travel without their parents.

And I was shot down as not understanding the sport. Well maybe so but I do understand how to mitigate keeping kids safe and how taking aminor child and denying their parents/guardians access to them is a huge red flag. But when I expressed that at the time, I was told I just don't understand, this is how it's done. Or it would impossible to require a parent to to travel. I didn't and still don't understand that one. As in allowing a parent to travel is not the same as requiring it. And denying a parent the right to travel is way different.

My area of expertise is process improvement. It's ongoing in my work. How we can do better is something I do most days, and "we" means me first.

Because I said so and because that's how it's always been done are just not good enough reasons for not making things, better, more efficient and most importantly safer.

I can tell you where that letter would come in handy and matter. Exhibit A in the lawsuit I'd be filing, if it were my kid who was abused. That memo was given to minor athletes, if the parents didn't see it and sign off, yep huge lawsuit. (Not only does my kid have to sign off on her school handbook, so do I) So yes to the plaintiffs, it matters.

 

[BachFlyer]

I can tell you where that letter would come in handy and matter. Exhibit A in the lawsuit I'd be filing, if it were my kid who was abused. That memo was given to minor athletes, if the parents didn't see it and sign off, yep huge lawsuit. (Not only does my kid have to sign off on her school handbook, so do I) So yes to the plaintiffs, it matters.

Yes this is one of the points I made; the memo could matter to potential future plaintiffs.

If your job is to improve process, it seems you'd be the first person to be curious about where the weak points are in a given system, rather than dismissing them. You seem to be saying on the one hand that you advocate for stronger protections for minor athletes and more parental access (which is a point we agree on and I've been vocal about for years) but when information comes to light you fail to see it's relevance to the larger conversation. Very confusing.

But ultimately, I'm going to be straight up. On behalf of the people who have a personal stake in this situation, maybe try to hear why it matters, instead of pontificating from a distance about how it certainly doesn't and how you are the only gym parent who knows how to protect your kid in a complex environment, and how what you've determined is irrelevant must therefore be so. The gym world is a small community and CB even smaller and it's rude. Some weren't believed for a long time, some had to, still have to, listen to disgusting support of this creep when their child was hurt, or be subject to continued victim blaming and questioning of their parenting. Some are afraid of coming forward due to possible identification and repercussions, or that they won't be believed. They are real people, not a hypothetical situation. It's not just "old news", it's validation.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Yes this is one of the points I made; the memo could matter to potential future plaintiffs.

If your job is to improve process, it seems you'd be the first person to be curious about where the weak points are in a given system, rather than dismissing them. You seem to be saying on the one hand that you advocate for stronger protections for minor athletes and more parental access (which is a point we agree on and I've been vocal about for years) but when information comes to light you fail to see it's relevance to the larger conversation. Very confusing.

But ultimately, I'm going to be straight up. On behalf of the people who have a personal stake in this situation, maybe try to hear why it matters, instead of pontificating from a distance about how it certainly doesn't and how you are the only gym parent who knows how to protect your kid in a complex environment, and how what you've determined is irrelevant must therefore be so. The gym world is a small community and CB even smaller and it's rude. Some weren't believed for a long time, some had to, still have to, listen to disgusting support of this creep when their child was hurt, or be subject to continued victim blaming and questioning of their parenting. Some are afraid of coming forward due to possible identification and repercussions, or that they won't be believed. They are real people, not a hypothetical situation. It's not just "old news", it's validation.

I didn't dismiss weak points (and was in fact dismissed when pointing them out in the past) and again we are advocating for pretty much the same things. Or say that what happened didn't matter.

On your other points, yes I'm not close enough to the situation and will take myself out the discussion.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Maybe they should have had a policy for the gymnast to call a female staff member who could then involve other staff as required, especially at night.

that IS what they were told. all the early day Tops camps were held/hosted at gyms. there were several female chaperones. that letter is disingenuous and was put up to fan the fire. and just as coaches are not allowed to cross the cow patch where the athletes cabins are at the NTC, coaches were not allowed to even think about going near an athletes hotel room when these were hosted at a gym and hotel rooms were blocked for the event. note that the letter is dated "2000". the Tops camps were moved to the NTC a couple years later. and Debbie Van Horn is a female.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yes this is one of the points I made; the memo could matter to potential future plaintiffs.

If your job is to improve process, it seems you'd be the first person to be curious about where the weak points are in a given system, rather than dismissing them. You seem to be saying on the one hand that you advocate for stronger protections for minor athletes and more parental access (which is a point we agree on and I've been vocal about for years) but when information comes to light you fail to see it's relevance to the larger conversation. Very confusing.

But ultimately, I'm going to be straight up. On behalf of the people who have a personal stake in this situation, maybe try to hear why it matters, instead of pontificating from a distance about how it certainly doesn't and how you are the only gym parent who knows how to protect your kid in a complex environment, and how what you've determined is irrelevant must therefore be so. The gym world is a small community and CB even smaller and it's rude. Some weren't believed for a long time, some had to, still have to, listen to disgusting support of this creep when their child was hurt, or be subject to continued victim blaming and questioning of their parenting. Some are afraid of coming forward due to possible identification and repercussions, or that they won't be believed. They are real people, not a hypothetical situation. It's not just "old news", it's validation.

yes. the letter was given to the parents. geesh. everyone had to sign an acknowledgement release before they could attend. it's been that way forever.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Close to yours but not a neighbouring country. ;-)

Kids here go on yearly 1-week school field trips by either 4th or 5th grade with only teachers as chaperones. Parents are never, under any circumstances, allowed to accompany a child. The only exception I've heard of was a child that was in a wheel chair and needed one-on-one care. Children also HAVE to go. Only in extremely severe cases of homesickness, they have been allowed to go home early.
Of course, certain rules are no-brainers. Teachers don't hang out in students' rooms and vice versa. However, we always check if everyone gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night. Also a no-brainer - female teachers take care of female students and male teachers take care of male students.

Anyways.....my point is actually that I think that no amount of rules could have prevented the Nassar scandal. However, I think it would have come to light a lot earlier if the gymnasts had been in a safer environment. Which includes not only rules about who can and cannot be alone with them but also a much more positive camp and competition environment.

i hope everyone understands that Nasser was a child pornographer first and foremost. he infiltrated our sport. everything else he did was to feed his sickness and then "buy, sell, or trade" what he had on the "dark net". he is being sentenced for child pornography. make sense?

 

[mandkmom]

i hope everyone understands that Nasser was a child pornographer first and foremost. he infiltrated our sport. everything else he did was to feed his sickness and then "buy, sell, or trade" what he had on the "dark net". he is being sentenced for child pornography. make sense?

Not sure what your point is here. Agree he is a child pornographer but he also physically and emotionally abused young girls. Just because thus far he is only being sentenced for the porn doesn't mean the other stuff didn't happen.

As far as the letter- are you saying it's not legit?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Not sure what your point is here. Agree he is a child pornographer but he also physically and emotionally abused young girls. Just because thus far he is only being sentenced for the porn doesn't mean the other stuff didn't happen.

As far as the letter- are you saying it's not legit?

good morning! in bold was my point. but his plan and strategy early on was child porn. that is what drove the other. and yes the letter is real. but out of context compared to today's problem. but read what i said. they could call Nasser, and Debbie, and all the other female administrators that were in attendance in those early days. i could mention some names but you wouldn't know who they were. some of those kids coaches were also their parents. there were plenty of 'go to' females in attendance that supervised the kids.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yes this is one of the points I made; the memo could matter to potential future plaintiffs.

If your job is to improve process, it seems you'd be the first person to be curious about where the weak points are in a given system, rather than dismissing them. You seem to be saying on the one hand that you advocate for stronger protections for minor athletes and more parental access (which is a point we agree on and I've been vocal about for years) but when information comes to light you fail to see it's relevance to the larger conversation. Very confusing.

But ultimately, I'm going to be straight up. On behalf of the people who have a personal stake in this situation, maybe try to hear why it matters, instead of pontificating from a distance about how it certainly doesn't and how you are the only gym parent who knows how to protect your kid in a complex environment, and how what you've determined is irrelevant must therefore be so. The gym world is a small community and CB even smaller and it's rude. Some weren't believed for a long time, some had to, still have to, listen to disgusting support of this creep when their child was hurt, or be subject to continued victim blaming and questioning of their parenting. Some are afraid of coming forward due to possible identification and repercussions, or that they won't be believed. They are real people, not a hypothetical situation. It's not just "old news", it's validation.

there won't be any potential future plaintiffs from those early day Tops camps. nothing happened. ETA: if i recall correctly, at that time, all of those kids were 8-12 year olds. that would make them 25 to 29 today. no one in the complaints have specified those early Tops camps as one of the locations.

and i'd like to clarify. the first and only athlete, a freshman softball player from the state of California in the year 2000 at Michigan State who filed a complaint against Nasser is the ONLY athlete who was not believed when she brought it forward. in fact, she was patronized, placated and dismissed. there was yet a 2nd softball player who was a sophomore in 2002. she filed a complaint. they did nothing. yet again in 2010/2011 another came forward. MSU gave the complaint to a Lansing prosecutor to investigate. days later that investigator/prosecutor HIMSELF was arrested in a prostitution sting. the 'folder' went missing as well as an investigation. MSU simply forgot about it. shortly thereafter, MSU tells Nasser to stop the "procedure" and he had to have "personnel in the room with him at all times when he "doctored". he utterly and contumaciously disregarded those instructions and continued on.

the gymnast who brought her concern to the women's gymnastics coach at MSU is an allegation. there is no record of this ever taking place. not saying it did not...but the Law requires records.

as far as the athletes that came forward to Rhonda and Steve...they were ALL believed. Dantscher was believed. DenHollander never told anyone...but when she did she was believed. i think our profession had a hard time wrapping their mind around the allegations at that time because of 'who' Nasser was. but i can tell you that what arose out of the child pornography left NO question in anyone's mind. and NO ONE i know in our profession is blaming the victims or their parents. but there are some things that occurred that you all don't know about that caused our profession pause...and many of us are still trying to figure out what happened and when. and how over 25 years this wasn't revealed...somehow...someway. but i'll tell you this. no one in USA Gymnastics, which includes all of us coaches, knew a thing. they learned when they learned it the summer of 2015. but MSU? they clearly knew. they notified NO ONE on our side.

and there may be yet some that have not come forward. that may be true. but the athletes that came forward to Rhonda are for now confidential. that is their and their parents right. i don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 

[kecks]

to me the problem is not the staying without a parent. as others have pointed out this is pretty normal in europe for a 9 to 10 year old. i am a teacher. i teach year 5-12. we go on mandatory school trips with year 5 for 5 days overnight. and homeschooling is illegal here. everyone goes, teachers stay in seperate single rooms and check on same sex students during the night. students are housed in 2 to 8 kids-bedrooms. parents are not allowed on site. special need kids are accompanied by their one-on-one-assistance and care personell if needed.

the problem with the usag culture is imo not so much that it is anti-parental-involment, but that it is not educating the young athlete to be an independent, selfsufficent mature and responsible adult athlete one day but to be a hard working and very, very, very much obedient little soldier. just the ideas that "attitude" and "talking back" are bad. we encourage these with our young ones. obedience is bull***. someone being blindly obedient is convenient in war situations during a battle. in any other situation you want the kid to think about what it is doing, why it is doing what it is doing and decide for themselves, what is the right thing to do. of course in an age appropriate way, but this "line up as little soldiers", "do not talk back" and "do not question adult decisions"-culture makes abuse of any kind very, very easy.

greetings from germany! (we have tried this whole obedience thing big scale- "führer befiehl: wir folgen!". it let to the worst possible outcome for everyone. teach kids to be mature as in able to make their own decisions. do not teach them to juts follow orders given by parents, teachers, coaches, police men or whoeever).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i don't disagree. but the heart of the matter is an age old problem. if somehow kids would tell their parents, the first line of defense in all this, that 'something' happened it would sure help to cut off the head of the snake much sooner. pun intended for mature viewing audience.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This is exactly the sort of thing that does matter. It shows USAG's part in the overall problem.

no, it does not. not in this instance.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

These are kids between 8 and 10 years old. Many kids that age take instructions very literally and would start out by calling the first person on the list. It doesn't matter how many of them actually called anyway--the fact that they were directed to call a man who at this point may have had allegations made against him is the problem.

but this man was a Doctor, married and had kids. see the ruse? the deception??

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I also think the "do not call your coach" is terrible in hindsight. Most docs written 17 years ago look terrible in hindsight but knowing these facts it really makes it seem even worse. We have no idea who drafted this letter or who had final say- imagine if Nassar had free reign on this doc-- with no oversight. It is scary- but unfortunately these predators are out there and this is reality =(

i do know who drafted that letter. he did not have free reign on that doc. there was oversight. and "do not call your coach" is because they did not want anyone near the hotel rooms which housed the kids. that's prudent. for the child's protection as well as the coaches.

 

[mommyof1]

but this man was a Doctor, married and had kids. see the ruse? the deception??

I don't think it should have been any male, no matter how upstanding he might have appeared. There should have been female chaperones as the front-line support for the girls in the hotel.

 

[gymmomx2]

but this man was a Doctor, married and had kids. see the ruse? the deception??

I don't care if he's the freakin' Pope, there shouldn't even have been an OPTION for the girls to call him or any other male directly, I hope you agree with this. It's not prudent no matter how upstanding the person seems, most (all?) other organizations working with kids understand this. Just because nothing happened (that we know of) doesn't make it right. Perhaps you know more of what happened behind the scenes that most of us don't know (as in "disregard what the letter says, here's who you should really contact"), but man that letter taken at face value is just bad optics.

FWIW, I also agree with asking the kids not to contact their coach. There should be a single point of contact (female) for each girl in case they need help, this is for clarity so the girls don't have to decide whom to call and for accountability. This person should then be responsible for coordinating further help if needed.

 

[mommyof1]

i do know who drafted that letter. he did not have free reign on that doc. there was oversight. and "do not call your coach" is because they did not want anyone near the hotel rooms which housed the kids. that's prudent. for the child's protection as well as the coaches.

I actually agree with the "do not call your coach" provision, for everyone's protection. It's the lack of age-appropriate guidance and close supervision from multiple adults of the same gender as the kids that is the problem.

 

[notthatmom]

I don't think it should have been any male, no matter how upstanding he might have appeared. There should have been female chaperones as the front-line support for the girls in the hotel.

I agreee, and if it were a medical emergency in which Nassar (or any male doctor) would have been the best person to assist with at the time, then that particular female chaperone could have made that judgement call. (Again, just hypothetical procedure that should have been in place, before of course anyone knew he was a douchecanoe)

 

[BachFlyer]

I didn't say that the potential plaintiffs would be from that time specifically, I meant that the memo is validation as every piece of information that comes out is validation for those that were abused, and perhaps reading this gives someone that extra push or awareness to say, "what happened to me was not right and I am not going to be silent about it." Why do you think the floodgates opened after the Indy report and since? Because there was a recognition for some at that point. There is power in knowing there were others. There is power in knowing that you're not crazy. Perhaps you know who exactly was on those trips and based on that you might be pretty sure nothing happened to them, so I will take that as fact, and say a hallelujah. But it doesn't mean that this couldn't be relevant to somone else deciding to come forward who hasn't already. Remember not all of his victims were elite gymnasts. I also didn't say that the kids weren't believe by USAG or anyone in particular; I was more referring to their experience of dealing with a lot of folks in and around the gym community who were dead set on defending him for a long time after the charges. There were and are a ton of hurtful comments out there that lean towards victim/parent blaming, all the armchair quarterbacks out there who think THEY wouldn't have let it happen to their child because they have all the answers in child safety are right up that alley.

It was a terrible idea to have him as a point of contact. We all can learn something specific from this particular piece of information.

And I won't agree that USAG has no culpability and knew nothing, and it's all on MSU. They could have alerted MSU in 2015 when they fired him, to start. USAG had (has?) an isolationist, imbalanced system in place that has created a situation where girls aren't empoweee to have voices and are agarics of coming forward. This is not the only case of sexual or other abuse in all of gymnastics ever and their handling of other allegations is part of the problem as I (and others) see it. The response to the public since Nassar has be less than swift and less than satisfactory in my opinion and the opinion of many. It's been a lot of defending and less acknowledging. I know some of that is due to pending litigation and only being able to say so much, I get that. But somehow this went on for years and years and years. There are contributing factors, and a culture and policy shift is in order, starting at the top and right on down to a good number of local clubs. I certainly hope that people at the top are "scratching their heads" really, really hard.

 

[notthatmom]

I actually agree with the "do not call your coach" provision, for everyone's protection. It's the lack of age-appropriate guidance and close supervision from multiple adults of the same gender as the kids that is the problem.

I agree as well, as I said at the beginning of the post, I understand why it was a provision, but the alternatives were not acceptable