WAG Ballet vs.Gymnastics Leaps/Split Jumps

[Raquel]

I know that in both gymnastics and ballet, the hips needs to be squared forward during split jumps, but what about the rotation of the thighs? For example, should the top of the front foot be facing up or to the side? I know that in ballet, the thigh/feet should definitely be facing to the side, but what about in gymnastics??? TIA!

 

[gymdog]

In gymnastics the alignment of the leg is so the back heel is directly up. But we also do more inverted splitting skills and have to do them on a beam so the alignment is more important than extreme turnout. Gymnastics only really requires fairly "straight" or slight turnout.

 

[flips123]

I've also noticed in addition to the turn out, the jumps/leaps in ballet have more of a bent to straight kick of the front leg (not really sure how to explain it) and in gymnastics it is just a straight lift up.

 

[Raquel]

In gymnastics the alignment of the leg is so the back heel is directly up. But we also do more inverted splitting skills and have to do them on a beam so the alignment is more important than extreme turnout. Gymnastics only really requires fairly "straight" or slight turnout.

Thanks gymdog. And what about the front leg? Top of foot facing up or to the side? (thanks again!)

 

[gymdog]

Thanks gymdog. And what about the front leg? Top of foot facing up or to the side? (thanks again!)

Either would generally be okay if the turnout was relatively slight. I would think in reality most gymnasts would have a fairly straight foot while doing leaps and jumps.

 

[Muddlethru]

I've also noticed in addition to the turn out, the jumps/leaps in ballet have more of a bent to straight kick of the front leg (not really sure how to explain it) and in gymnastics it is just a straight lift up.

Ballet does more of a Développé on their leaps. This leap actually requires more control and flexibility.

 

[scanlri]

This is a very interesting discussion! My dd dances in addition to gym, but it is a dance studio rather than classical ballet. She doesn't have any problem with the leaps and jumps between dance and gym, but the turns give her FITS. The turns are different, and I certainly can't explain it. During meet season, her gym turns are spot on and she can't do them in dance

Wish I knew the difference, but dd does seem to manage.

 

[2G1B]

Ballet does more of a Développé on their leaps. This leap actually requires more control and flexibility.

this caused problems for my DD. At the start of the school year her dance teacher said that her leaps were "gymnastics leaps" and she was going to work on them. After a few weeks the dance teacher is happy with her leaps and suddenly her gymnastics coach is like, "where did this come from??? She is staging her leaps!" I came over here and asked about it and it turns out that the "staging" is the develope. For level 3 they aren't supposed to do it.

 

[Quadqueen]

I came over here and asked about it and it turns out that the "staging" is the develope. For level 3 they aren't supposed to do it.

I don't think they are supposed to do it for any level

 

[2G1B]

I asked about it on here and it sounded like it would be considered fine at the optionals levels; but who knows!

 

[Muddlethru]

This is a very interesting discussion! My dd dances in addition to gym, but it is a dance studio rather than classical ballet. She doesn't have any problem with the leaps and jumps between dance and gym, but the turns give her FITS. The turns are different, and I certainly can't explain it. During meet season, her gym turns are spot on and she can't do them in dance

Wish I knew the difference, but dd does seem to manage.

In gymnastics, they really do "spins" as opposed to turns. They 'turn' the same way ice skaters turn. Gymnasts don't spot. They just use force to get them around because turning on bare feet on carpet requires it. In my opinion, gymnasts have to 'chuck' turns. There really is very little technique involved.

Dance turns require more technique. They use slippery shoes on polished wood floors. As such, they don't need anywhere close to the force needed in gymnastics to get around. However, dancers can easily do 7 pirouettes, the most I've seen is 27 pirouettes in a row. The most I've seen a gymnast do is a quad. Balance, control and spotting is what gets them around in dance. Dance turns look effortless and really are effortless. Turns on beam however may utilize dance turn techniques because more control and precision is required.

In addition, gymnasts mostly do inside turns (turn towards the front leg) where in dance most turns are outside (turns towards the back leg). So, that too can be confusing.

I remember a coach telling me leaps that don't start off straight can get a deduction.

 

[Raquel]

Thanks all. Yes, this whole thing is very confusing to me. DDs gymnastics coach told her to take ballet lesson with a strict ballet teacher (which she is doing), but not everything is done the same way in gymnastics as it is in ballet.

 

[gracyomalley]

DD had to learn to adjust between the 2, however, had she continued in dance onto pointe it would have been more problematic.

Its not true that gymnasts don't spot - my DD coach always teaches them to do so - one big difference we ran into was arms....and DD still gets some deductions when she gets too artistic with her dance in her floor routine - I think it was the difference between 1st and 4th place at her last meet actually, so not insignificant!

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

There are two different kinds of "split leaps" in ballet, the grand jete does the "lift the legs straight up into a split as you leap" more similar to gymnastics leaps and the saut de chat is where you developpe before going into a full split. I don't know about the difference re turnout desirable in gymnastics vs ballet and will totally go with whatever more knowledgeable people say.

 

[aileenmaryf]

In gymnastics, they really do "spins" as opposed to turns. They 'turn' the same way ice skaters turn. Gymnasts don't spot. They just use force to get them around because turning on bare feet on carpet requires it. In my opinion, gymnasts have to 'chuck' turns. There really is very little technique involved.

Dance turns require more technique. They use slippery shoes on polished wood floors. As such, they don't need anywhere close to the force needed in gymnastics to get around. However, dancers can easily do 7 pirouettes, the most I've seen is 27 pirouettes in a row. The most I've seen a gymnast do is a quad. Balance, control and spotting is what gets them around in dance. Dance turns look effortless and really are effortless. Turns on beam however may utilize dance turn techniques because more control and precision is required.

In addition, gymnasts mostly do inside turns (turn towards the front leg) where in dance most turns are outside (turns towards the back leg). So, that too can be confusing.

I remember a coach telling me leaps that don't start off straight can get a deduction.

I don't know what kind of turns you have been watching, but in gymnastics you actually do need all of those things that you need for dance turns. Yes it is possible to "chuck" a turn, but that does not make it a good turn. There is definitely a difference in technique, balance, form, control, etc. And contrary to your belief, you spot when you do turns especially if you are doing more than a full turn or doing turns on beam. Otherwise they probably do look like they are being "Chucked" but really turns are meant to look effortless. However, if not enough time and effort is put into them when learned, they will look and be a lot harder than they have to be.

 

[iwannacoach]

Spot for full turns, and a best effort turn out whenever it can be done without affecting the skill like lifting a leg up in front, or a kick...... Also, some things not easily seen is a slight turn out of the lead leg during step-out skills on beam helps in squaring up landings, and a "just not all the way up knee position" on the front leg of split leaps and jumps helps the same way.

 

[Muddlethru]

I don't know what kind of turns you have been watching, but in gymnastics you actually do need all of those things that you need for dance turns. Yes it is possible to "chuck" a turn, but that does not make it a good turn. There is definitely a difference in technique, balance, form, control, etc. And contrary to your belief, you spot when you do turns especially if you are doing more than a full turn or doing turns on beam. Otherwise they probably do look like they are being "Chucked" but really turns are meant to look effortless. However, if not enough time and effort is put into them when learned, they will look and be a lot harder than they have to be.

I too do not know what kind of turns you've been watching. And I should probably qualify my previous post by saying the technique in turns in gymnastics and dance are entirely different. The biggest difference being more force is required in gymnastics and they do not spot. Whereas less force is required in dance and they do spot. Please post any floor routine that shows a gymnast spotting more than one turn.

Gymnasts spin.

Aliya mustafina at :46


Jordyn Weiber at:47


Tap dancers tend to do more turns because their shoes are even sloppier


Pirouette


Look closely at the turns. Gymnasts heads do not snap to spot during their turns. Whereas dancers spot at ever revolution. A gymnast will never be able to do nearly as many turns as a dancer. And if a dancer puts in as much force as a gymnast, they will tumble off their turns. Certainly balance and control is present in both turns. But the dynamics and techniques are vastly different. I disagree with you and believe gymnasts turns look forced and difficult.

 

[Muddlethru]

Correction: not "sloppier" but more slippery. And also go to Aliya's turns at 1.10.

 

[scanlri]

This discussion helps bring back memories of discussions with dd's dance teacher (who was a gymnast herself). Dd does struggle with the switching between outside and inside turns, but it turns out (found out this week) her biggest struggle is having to relearn to spot every year. Apparently dd doesn't spot at all in her gymnastics turns. As her dance teacher says... "if she could just get those turns down and KEEP THEM!!!!" She can do the dance turns (fouttes and such), but she travels quite a bit when doing them Oh well, I guess dd is willing to struggle to keep doing both gymnastics and dance.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

This can be a good discussion.

The specific demands of the sport of gymnasts places demand on an athlete that make some tactics of execution more efficient. A grand jete landed with excellent body tension will be ready for the next leap or jump in gymnastics. Small turn out of feet (generally seen as grace) makes the biomechanics of making the next move efficient (and powerful). A switch leap (higher value in USA G Code), frequently used on FX and BB by our gym, is easier with little turn-out and any stag of lead leg makes this a really difficult skill to meet code.
A big switch leap on BB is difficult to land. The body, foot and supporting arm positoning takes oodes of practice time. For my experience: Small turn out works, more turn out - harder to execute clean on BB (10 cm).

Perfect FX skills can be done on BB.

As to turns, wow they are hard to coach and execute! A turn (1/1 or more) is required on BB from USA G L5-10. I can not tell you the meets were our athletes will execute a perfect tumbling series on the 10cm beam and then receive <.3 deduction for wobbling on a 1/1. I train turns/leaps/jumps with the same vigor as tumbling, vaulting and UB's. A L9 in our gym performs a 2/1 into a 1/1 with leg in horizontal on BB. That young athlete has trained that skill in the dance room, FX and countless times on the BB. The training for that skill sequence (series) has taken as much time and effort as her BHS, 1 hand BHS, LAY step out.

As to perfoming a turn with attitude (turn out of leg), I like them as they add variation from the huge amount of 90' passé or coupe turns done by L6-10's in the US. I do have a turn complex on BB were I ask for "optional arms" in turns. We work them on the dance floor, FX and then BB. A "WOW" skill is better flavor for a performed routine by an accomplished athlete. As we are preparing our athletes for State Meet and beyond, we have selected small, cleanly executed WOW skills for the athlete to allow them to be seen as special or unique. Our athletes have enjoyed being "special" and they "own" their "wows." We have had arm positions in 2/1's on FX called Maddi/Katie/Rachel...you get the idea.

I hope my rambling above have contributed to the thread. I value the composition and the quality of movements in our routines and struggle, like most coaches, to balance the use of time to ALL the gymnastics needed to have an all around athlete compete USA G L6-10.

Best, SBG_