WAG Judges Question...

[MinnieGymMom]

So lets say you have to gymnasts, one competes the bare minimum requirements but the routine is extremely clean, the other gymnast competes a harder version of the routine (front handspring layout instead of front handspring front tuck in L7 floor) she too is extremely clean. They both have 3 tenths of technical deductions (like form) but wold they get the same score?

In other words I'm asking if the difficulty of a routine automatically makes the score higher. I don't think It would (at least it shouldn't) and me and my husband were arguing the whole way home from the meet today LOL

Thanks

 

[QueenBee]

If they both started from the same SV (10.0) which is what it sounds like from your description, and they both received 0.3 in deductions - both gymnasts would score the same.

Level 7 doesn't have composition deductions; there wouldn't be any sort of "but her routine was easier or harder" conversation taking place from the judges.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

So lets say you have to gymnasts, one competes the bare minimum requirements but the routine is extremely clean, the other gymnast competes a harder version of the routine (front handspring layout instead of front handspring front tuck in L7 floor) she too is extremely clean. They both have 3 tenths of technical deductions (like form) but wold they get the same score?

In other words I'm asking if the difficulty of a routine automatically makes the score higher. I don't think It would (at least it shouldn't) and me and my husband were arguing the whole way home from the meet today LOL

Thanks

The difference with difficulty starts in level 8, with routines not being up to level. As long as they meet all the requirements and have all their A and B skills, in level 7 there isn't a difference

 

[Muddlethru]

My personal experience and opinion, but it really depends on the judges, is there is a difference and there should be a difference. I am currently studying to be a gymnastics judge and I know when faced with the situation the OP mentions above, if indeed the deductions are identical, I will reward a higher score for the more difficult routine, even if it is only one tenth of a point. I will also reward for artistry since that is my preference. Ultimately, judges have to award the top spot to the top performer. If all deductions are deemed equal, the routine with the more difficult skills is the "superior" routine. It really is not a tie when one is doing more difficult skills and executing it as well as the one with less difficult skills.

There are unwritten and unspoken rules in every level. If I recall correctly, when my daughter was a Level 6, after she fell on one of her skills, she was so disappointed with herself that she cried throughout the rest of her routine. Our coach told us the judges took an "artistic" deduction on her floor routine which will account for a lower score. The judges said they know she is still young but she has to learn to just move on. I don't know if our coach was lying but I did see a judge summon our coach to the judges table and then she went directly to tell us about the deduction. This happened right after the routine. There is nothing in the code of points that allows a deduction for crying is there? Judges can't help but judge based on their own personal preferences and biases. I did not appreciate the deduction but I can see how this might have been very distractive to the judges and may have been put off by it. (There have been many unrelated gymnastics deductions, bra straps to having skin colored sports wraps at meets that may have been placed there because of the distraction element.) Outside of deductions on missing elements and obvious skill execution deficiencies, there is a lot of leeway for judges to factor in their personal preferences. Additionally, execution and form deductions rely on many factors; what did the judge see, what did the judge miss? A judge may see a slightly bent leg and the other judge might not think it was bent at all. Some judges deduct for every time the toes are not pointed and some judges will just take a general one time deduction even if the toes are not pointed the entire routine. If uniformity in judging is not an issue, why are there two judges in each meet, 4+ at the regional and national level? How many judges are there at the Olympics? Maybe I've gone off topic here. But I just wanted to point out that gymnastics judging is really not an exact science.

The judging method in gymnastics is why people argue that gymnastics is not a sport. In most traditional team sports, there is a clear winner. There is no debate who won a team sport, most goals/most points wins and everyone in the audience knows when goals/points are scored. When there is a panel of judges who decide who performed better, it can be arbitrary and prone to abuse, favoritism etc.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I am currently studying to be a gymnastics judge and I know when faced with the situation the OP mentions above, if indeed the deductions are identical, I will reward a higher score for the more difficult routine, even if it is only one tenth of a point.

How can you "reward" the routine you deem more difficult? You score as the routine is done. You can only score the routine presented.

All things being equal as in all required elements in the routine and performed the same would mean they would be scored the same. Until difficulty/not up to level deductions start in L8

It's not like you wait to score the routines after you see them all. So seriously how do you plan to score the one you like/deem better higher? When you actually start judging how do you plan to go back and reward the kid with what you thought was the harder routine when you have, for example, since moved onto the 3rd rotation of the session so it was 20 gymnasts back?

So seriously when you actually start judging how do you plan to make that happen?

There are unwritten and unspoken rules in every level. If I recall correctly, when my daughter was a Level 6, after she fell on one of her skills, she was so disappointed with herself that she cried throughout the rest of her routine. Our coach told us the judges took an "artistic" deduction on her floor routine which will account for a lower score. The judges said they know she is still young but she has to learn to just move on. I don't know if our coach was lying but I did see a judge summon our coach to the judges table and then she went directly to tell us about the deduction. This happened right after the routine.

I wouldn't say your coach was lying. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what was said, given that you acutally didn't hear the exchange. Perhaps the judges had form issues due to the crying. And perhaps the coach was about making it a learning opportunity about "keeping it together" as in it would of gone better had she taken a breath and calmly moved on.

(There have been many unrelated gymnastics deductions, bra straps to having skin colored sports wraps at meets that may have been placed there because of the distraction element.)

I could be completely off on this one but I believe that is in fact addressed in code of points. Perhaps not detailed but addressed.

There are unwritten and unspoken rules in every level.

???? Could you and other judges actually comment on these rules that are not written down and spoken about.

I'm not talking about personal bias and preference, which of course happens. But what are the unwritten, unspoken about rules?

 

[MILgymFAM]

How can you "reward" the routine you deem more difficult? You score as the routine is done. You can only score the routine presented.

All things being equal as in all required elements in the routine and performed the same would mean they would be scored the same. Until difficulty/not up to level deductions start in L8

It's not like you wait to score the routines after you see them all. So seriously how do you plan to score the one you like/deem better higher? When you actually start judging how do you plan to go back and reward the kid with what you thought was the harder routine when you have, for example, since moved onto the 3rd rotation of the session so it was 20 gymnasts back?

So seriously when you actually start judging how do you plan to make that happen?



I wouldn't say your coach was lying. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what was said, given that you acutally didn't hear the exchange. Perhaps the judges had form issues due to the crying. And perhaps the coach was about making it a learning opportunity about "keeping it together" as in it would of gone better had she taken a breath and calmly moved on.



I could be completely off on this one but I believe that is in fact addressed in code of points. Perhaps not detailed but addressed.




???? Could you and other judges actually comment on these rules that are not written down and spoken about.

I'm not talking about personal bias and preference, which of course happens. But what are the unwritten, unspoken about rules?

All of this. The whole idea of unwritten rules and if judges deciding which routine deserved to win- outside of the code of points- is what makes kids and parents and coaches into crazy people. The whole point of the code is laying everything out there. If my kid (L6) does her non-traditional floor passes, I would hate for a judge to arbitrarily decide that they were easier than another girl doing the standard (and definitely easier than another girl doing next level skills), and next thing you know my kid is shook by a low score that no one can decipher. Why do that at all?

(For the record I was making a point- I absolutely think my DDs passes are “up to level” even though that’s not a thing at L6)

 

[John]

I understand what @4theloveofsports is saying and I think it happens, I do not approve of it. I do not know how to fix it. I think judging is very difficult I believe many judges keep the higher scores for the last gymnasts of a rotation, should he/she nail their routine. I believe this is one of those unspoken rules. I agree this is what makes the gymnastic parents crazy. I witnessed DD's Head coach tell the judges to "cut it out or there will be no kids from our state at regionals"

 

[tomtnt]

happens alot at level 10s... should you "reward" girls with E passes on floor over girls doing the bare minimum? how about girls without single bars release but have other elements to meet 10.0SV - should they be judged more harshly?

Judging and deduction are supposed to be consistent across the board but we obviously have cases where you have "easier" judging at 1 meet and more difficult judging at another meet where the same routines can score 0.2-0.5 lower or high between meets.

 

[tomtnt]

I understand what @4theloveofsports is saying and I think it happens, I do not approve of it. I do not know how to fix it. I think judging is very difficult I believe many judges keep the higher scores for the last gymnasts of a rotation, should he/she nail their routine. I believe this is one of those unspoken rules. I agree this is what makes the gymnastic parents crazy. I witnessed DD's Head coach tell the judges to "cut it out or there will be no kids from our state at regionals"

Curious why you believe judges would keep the higher scores for the last gymnasts? That may be the case in college and compulsory where the coaches can rearrange the orders of their gymnasts to put their "closer" or best gymnast for last but in many of the meets we've attended, the order has been random - especially at states/regional/nationals.

 

[John]

I was only making an observation from what I have seen and heard talk about. States and regionals are the only meets we have attended with the randomly selected order, and I really appreciate that format. I believe that the idea that order is random at states and regionals only supports the theory that order has some effect on scores. Our regular meets coaches chose the order the girls from their teams compete. During the season I observed many teams competed weak to strong gymnast on each event.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Judging and deduction are supposed to be consistent across the board but we obviously have cases where you have "easier" judging at 1 meet and more difficult judging at another meet where the same routines can score 0.2-0.5 lower or high between meets.

That is a different scenario. The score numbers may be different but placement wise it all works out.

While bars may seem to be scoring lower at a meet the stronger girls end up with the higher of the lower scores.

My daughter got an amazing, for her number score, on floor this season. But so did the rest of the meet. She placed as expected.

There are judges who are take the max judges, scores will be lower, but they all will be.

There are judges who take min, scores will be higher, but they all will be.

That is not what the OP was talking about.

Same meet, all requirements met, form the same. Both scored by the same judge, who judges floor a certain way but their way. Score will be the same.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I was only making an observation from what I have seen and heard talk about. States and regionals are the only meets we have attended with the randomly selected order, and I really appreciate that format. I believe that the idea that order is random at states and regionals only supports the theory that order has some effect on scores. Our regular meets coaches chose the order the girls from their teams compete. During the season I observed many teams competed weak to strong gymnast on each event.

There are many reasons coaches chose their order. That has less to do with judging and more about how the girls do. Things like you have a kid who tends to fall a lot on beam you might not want them to go first and have a fall and then the fall is in the heads of the kids that follow. There are a host of reasons coach put the kids where they do.

How a coach chooses the order has not one thing to do with scoring.

Our states this weekend. The best bar on our team went in the middle of teams rotation, weakest went first. Best beam performer went first in our team rotation. Kid having the most difficulty on beam went last.

And based on your assumption the Sunday L7s should of scored better then the Saturday L7. I can assure you that was not the case.

Also since the judges have no idea which gymmie is in which age group how can they even know which gymmie they "should score better".

 

[tomtnt]

I understand that - I was bringing up a different point related to judging.

I am referring to why judging isn't plain consistent across the board in the first place -- does the code of point allow that much discretion in what is a fall? what is a step? what is an arch? if different judges have discretion to judge differently, they sure bring this judging bias when judging easier routines versus more difficulty routines.

We've seen same judges at different meets at various points in the season score very differently.. it's an interesting - I wonder if the 2-4 judges get together before the meet and decide whether to score tougher or easier at particular meets. lol

That is a different scenario. The score numbers may be different but placement wise it all works out.

While bars may seem to be scoring lower at a meet the stronger girls end up with the higher of the lower scores.

My daughter got an amazing, for her number score, on floor this season. But so did the rest of the meet. She placed as expected.

There are judges who are take the max judges, scores will be lower, but they all will be.

There are judges who take min, scores will be higher, but they all will be.

That is not what the OP was talking about.

Same meet, all requirements met, form the same. Both scored by the same judge, who judges floor a certain way but their way. Score will be the same.

 

[vagymmomma]

I took (and passed) the compulsory judging test when DD was an old L4 (new L3). I wasn't trying to coach or judge my kid, but I did seek a greater understanding of the sport. I never had the chance to take the optional test (which has more parts and is more complicated), but I hope to one day. One of the most enlightening things to me was how many "up to" deductions there are. Some of the "up to" have guidance, but most do not. There is a .2 deduction for "Incorrect Attire". This covers bra straps, hair in face, undies, jewelry, nail polish, etc. There is supposed to be a warning first, but it's a real deduction.

Take a look at the link below. Section VI includes Execution, Composition and Artistry for Optionals (although Composition does not apply to 6 and 7). Artistry does and it can be very much preference. It can include many considerations. Or consider the following:

12 Round-off, Flic-flac to two feet: Deduction box-1st row: Up to 0.20 for Lack of acceleration in the series. Add “Not applied if the 0.30
deduction for a stop between elements is taken”

Again, it is an up to deduction and there is no exact speed, so it remains subjective.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/13replacement_general_0913.pdf

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I took (and passed) the compulsory judging test when DD was an old L4 (new L3). I wasn't trying to coach or judge my kid, but I did seek a greater understanding of the sport. I never had the chance to take the optional test (which has more parts and is more complicated), but I hope to one day. One of the most enlightening things to me was how many "up to" deductions there are. Some of the "up to" have guidance, but most do not. There is a .2 deduction for "Incorrect Attire". This covers bra straps, hair in face, undies, jewelry, nail polish, etc. There is supposed to be a warning first, but it's a real deduction.

Take a look at the link below. Section VI includes Execution, Composition and Artistry for Optionals (although Composition does not apply to 6 and 7). Artistry does and it can be very much preference. It can include many considerations. Or consider the following:

12 Round-off, Flic-flac to two feet: Deduction box-1st row: Up to 0.20 for Lack of acceleration in the series. Add “Not applied if the 0.30
deduction for a stop between elements is taken”

Again, it is an up to deduction and there is no exact speed, so it remains subjective.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/13replacement_general_0913.pdf

Yes its subjective to a point. But a judge will tend to judge the same way. So if the judge is the type to take the max allowable they are usually pretty consistent about it.

Same with the judges who tend to more forgiving not max deductors.

They all have their own way and own things but they are usually pretty consistent about it.

Our gym tends to stay local, we are a small gym, family owned, not a lot of coaches. From an expense and time out of gym. We don't do a lot of far away travel meets.

We tend to see the same judges and many of the same teams multiple times in a season. So if we go east a couple times we see certain judges and teams. If we go north, different judges and teams but again we see them multiple times.

Again I find the judging pretty consistent. I know which girls are the likely placers. I know who the shining stars are going to be. And we all know when we get "that" judge on bars its scoring is going to low. Or different "that" judge floor numbers will be kind. But placements follow. It usually comes down to oh I hope that one is not in our age group this go round. lol

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I understand what @4theloveofsports is saying and I think it happens, I do not approve of it. I do not know how to fix it. I think judging is very difficult I believe many judges keep the higher scores for the last gymnasts of a rotation, should he/she nail their routine. I believe this is one of those unspoken rules. I agree this is what makes the gymnastic parents crazy. I witnessed DD's Head coach tell the judges to "cut it out or there will be no kids from our state at regionals"

What makes parents crazy is thinking that happens. What makes parents crazy is assuming.

Again,

Explain to me how a judge knows which age group the kid is in, what kind of day the gymmie is going to have. Even within rotation?
How do they put the fix in?

So what you are saying is you believe with multiple gyms in a rotation that it is assumed the gym that performs last in the rotation is the "better" gym. And that all coaches put the "poor performing gymnasts first followed by the best.

So the judge should expect that the last kid up should be the best performer at the best gym so they should somehow score they other gymnasts in a way to leave room for that kid to do the best in the rotation.

Yes I could see how that would make someone crazy.

 

[vagymmomma]

Yes its subjective to a point. But a judge will tend to judge the same way. So if the judge is the type to take the max allowable they are usually pretty consistent about it.

Sorry if you're just venting, but I was trying (obviously poorly given your responses) to weigh in on your question "How can you reward routine you find more difficult?". Although it technically can't be done through compositional deductions for L6 and 7, optional judges have discretion with artistic and other "up to" deductions to make sure the best program wins. Scoring definitely can vary between meets and judges, but the end result usually makes sense because the discretionary deductions are applied fairly and consistently. I think you agree with that, but your post seems very frustrated or angry so a little hard to read.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Our states this weekend. The best bar on our team went in the middle of teams rotation, weakest went first. Best beam performer went first in our team rotation. Kid having the most difficulty on beam went last.
.

To further clarify. Our girls did not compete in the same order on all 4 events. Our coach chose the order they competed and changed it per event. And the gyms in our rotation didn't even go in the same order per event.

Floor was by how they had pre-qued the music, which had the coaches scratching their heads for a bit. Bars and vault order tends to go by making the least adjustments to the equipment. They seem to work it out as they get there.

 

[MILgymFAM]

What makes parents crazy is thinking that happens. What makes parents crazy is assuming.

Again,

Explain to me how a judge knows which age group the kid is in, what kind of day the gymmie is going to have. Even within rotation?
How do they put the fix in?

So what you are saying is you believe with multiple gyms in a rotation that it is assumed the gym that performs last in the rotation is the "better" gym. And that all coaches put the "poor performing gymnasts first followed by the best.

So the judge should expect that the last kid up should be the best performer at the best gym so they should somehow score they other gymnasts in a way to leave room for that kid to do the best in the rotation.

Yes I could see how that would make someone crazy.

I can’t speak for him, but in *my* experiences it’s not gym to gym, but within a gym. Scores will generally go from lowest to highest throughout a rotation. All the girls know it and so do the coaches- to the point that when there was one girl left who needed to qualify for states, the coaches moved her from first to the middle of the rotation and her scores went up and she finally qualified.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Sorry if you're just venting, but I was trying (obviously poorly given your responses) to weigh in on your question "How can you reward routine you find more difficult?". Although it technically can't be done through compositional deductions for L6 and 7, optional judges have discretion with artistic and other "up to" deductions to make sure the best program wins. Scoring definitely can vary between meets and judges, but the end result usually makes sense because the discretionary deductions are applied fairly and consistently. I think you agree with that, but your post seems very frustrated or angry so a little hard to read.

Yes we agree.

My point is you can answer the within meet scoring question by pointing out differences in scoring of different meets. They are not remotely the same. That is the source of my frustration. Apples to oranges.

Same with compositional deductions, degree of difficulty or not up to level deductions that happen in upper optionals and Elite.

In L7 and L6. Same form, all requirements met, same meet,same judge. Same score. Same beam routine, same form, one BWOBHS, one BWOBWO both flawless, same score.