WAG Judges Question...

[tomtnt]

It’s not just this topic- I think many of Deleted member 18037’s posts have that angry tone. Lol.

Not that I agree but I hear many coaches complaining about judges “judging the Leo”

Sorry if you're just venting, but I was trying (obviously poorly given your responses) to weigh in on your question "How can you reward routine you find more difficult?". Although it technically can't be done through compositional deductions for L6 and 7, optional judges have discretion with artistic and other "up to" deductions to make sure the best program wins. Scoring definitely can vary between meets and judges, but the end result usually makes sense because the discretionary deductions are applied fairly and consistently. I think you agree with that, but your post seems very frustrated or angry so a little hard to read.

 

[3rd_time_around]

My personal experience and opinion, but it really depends on the judges, is there is a difference and there should be a difference. I am currently studying to be a gymnastics judge and I know when faced with the situation the OP mentions above, if indeed the deductions are identical, I will reward a higher score for the more difficult routine, even if it is only one tenth of a point. I will also reward for artistry since that is my preference. Ultimately, judges have to award the top spot to the top performer. If all deductions are deemed equal, the routine with the more difficult skills is the "superior" routine. It really is not a tie when one is doing more difficult skills and executing it as well as the one with less difficult skills.

There are unwritten and unspoken rules in every level. If I recall correctly, when my daughter was a Level 6, after she fell on one of her skills, she was so disappointed with herself that she cried throughout the rest of her routine. Our coach told us the judges took an "artistic" deduction on her floor routine which will account for a lower score. The judges said they know she is still young but she has to learn to just move on. I don't know if our coach was lying but I did see a judge summon our coach to the judges table and then she went directly to tell us about the deduction. This happened right after the routine. There is nothing in the code of points that allows a deduction for crying is there? Judges can't help but judge based on their own personal preferences and biases. I did not appreciate the deduction but I can see how this might have been very distractive to the judges and may have been put off by it. (There have been many unrelated gymnastics deductions, bra straps to having skin colored sports wraps at meets that may have been placed there because of the distraction element.) Outside of deductions on missing elements and obvious skill execution deficiencies, there is a lot of leeway for judges to factor in their personal preferences. Additionally, execution and form deductions rely on many factors; what did the judge see, what did the judge miss? A judge may see a slightly bent leg and the other judge might not think it was bent at all. Some judges deduct for every time the toes are not pointed and some judges will just take a general one time deduction even if the toes are not pointed the entire routine. If uniformity in judging is not an issue, why are there two judges in each meet, 4+ at the regional and national level? How many judges are there at the Olympics? Maybe I've gone off topic here. But I just wanted to point out that gymnastics judging is really not an exact science.

The judging method in gymnastics is why people argue that gymnastics is not a sport. In most traditional team sports, there is a clear winner. There is no debate who won a team sport, most goals/most points wins and everyone in the audience knows when goals/points are scored. When there is a panel of judges who decide who performed better, it can be arbitrary and prone to abuse, favoritism etc.

If the skills have the same Value part, and are the same level, there is no differentiating between the difficulty of the skill. A back tuck and a back layout are both A value parts on floor, so neither is "harder" or more difficult than the other. There's no bonus points either, until level 9, and it has to do with connecting skills. Only Level 10 has bonus points for performing certain valued skills, and in that case, the higher skill would get a bonus if the other factors were the same except for the value part.

Artistic deductions are not unwritten, and are in every level. Bra straps showing is a deduction if it continues after the first warning. Judges have to take the toes pointed deduction for the whole routine if there are more than a couple times that its noted, not on every skill. The crying can certainly affect her artistry, the same as a gymnast looking angry or bored.

 

[3rd_time_around]

So lets say you have to gymnasts, one competes the bare minimum requirements but the routine is extremely clean, the other gymnast competes a harder version of the routine (front handspring layout instead of front handspring front tuck in L7 floor) she too is extremely clean. They both have 3 tenths of technical deductions (like form) but wold they get the same score?

In other words I'm asking if the difficulty of a routine automatically makes the score higher. I don't think It would (at least it shouldn't) and me and my husband were arguing the whole way home from the meet today LOL

Thanks

Both of these are A value parts, so neither is more difficult or superior. They are worth the same value.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

It’s not just this topic- I think many of Deleted member 18037’s posts have that angry tone. Lol.

I prefer blunt.

Assigning emotion and tone, is much like artistic interpretation.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I understand what @4theloveofsports is saying and I think it happens, I do not approve of it. I do not know how to fix it. I think judging is very difficult I believe many judges keep the higher scores for the last gymnasts of a rotation, should he/she nail their routine. I believe this is one of those unspoken rules. I agree this is what makes the gymnastic parents crazy. I witnessed DD's Head coach tell the judges to "cut it out or there will be no kids from our state at regionals"

No, they don't hold back scores, because the order is done by a draw, and we have no idea which girls are better and which ones are not. My partner judge and I once scored the first vault at a State meet as a 9.8, and after the entire meet, flight A & B, it was still the highest vault score and she won. They get scored on what is performed.

The only meets that allow coaches to order the gymnasts are big invitationals. For regular meets there is a rotation sheet that must be followed, except for bars where they are allowed to rearrange for bar settings.

 

[John]

What makes parents crazy is thinking that happens. What makes parents crazy is assuming.

Again,

Explain to me how a judge knows which age group the kid is in, what kind of day the gymmie is going to have. Even within rotation?
How do they put the fix in?

So what you are saying is you believe with multiple gyms in a rotation that it is assumed the gym that performs last in the rotation is the "better" gym. And that all coaches put the "poor performing gymnasts first followed by the best.

So the judge should expect that the last kid up should be the best performer at the best gym so they should somehow score they other gymnasts in a way to leave room for that kid to do the best in the rotation.

Yes I could see how that would make someone crazy.

What I am saying is that within one gym the coach choses the order his team will compete. If two gyms are competing in a rotation they both have their own order of gym members but of course one gym goes first then the other. Together they make one rotation.

My intention was that judging is subjective and judges may score the first x number of athletes more severely feeling they need to leave wiggle room should a special routine come later in the rotation. Score early routines too high and it would leave little room for later well executed routines.

The fact that there are up to deductions makes this a possibility. Furthemore why would a state or regional meet make rotations random if there wasn't a degree of fairness being injected?

Lastly these are my thoughts I wished to share to open a discussion. You voice a strong opinion and I respect it, but like mine it's just an opinion.

 

[wandrewsjr]

The only meets that allow coaches to order the gymnasts are big invitationals. For regular meets there is a rotation sheet that must be followed, except for bars where they are allowed to rearrange for bar settings.

Just FYI this really varies by state. In my state the only meet that has a predetermined rotation order is state championships. All other meets coaches set order.

 

[3rd_time_around]

What I am saying is that within one gym the coach choses the order his team will compete. If two gyms are competing in a rotation they both have their own order of gym members but of course one gym goes first then the other. Together they make one rotation.

My intention was that judging is subjective and judges may score the first x number of athletes more severely feeling they need to leave wiggle room should a special routine come later in the rotation. Score early routines too high and it would leave little room for later well executed routines.

The fact that there are up to deductions makes this a possibility. Furthemore why would a state or regional meet make rotations random if there wasn't a degree of fairness being injected?

Lastly these are my thoughts I wished to share to open a discussion. You voice a strong opinion and I respect it, but like mine it's just an opinion.

Respectfully, it's not an opinion. We are handed a rotation sheet when we enter a meet. The sheet lists the order the girls will compete. The only time coaches can change that order is for bar settings. At big invitationals, they use cards, but at regular meets they have a rotation sheet which is arbitrary and chosen by a computer program or are alphabetical. The teams rotate together, but they follow the rotation sheet, and at each event, a different girl will be the first one to compete, based on the order on the rotation sheet. The first girl listed goes first on the first event, then when they rotate, the 3rd or 4th girl will compete first on the next event, and the 5th or 6th girl will compete first on the 3rd event, and the 7th or 8th girl will compete first on the last event. When two or more gyms are in the same rotation, they still follow the order on the rotation sheet. If gym A has 5 girls and gym B has 6 girls, gym A will go in order and then Gym B, but the next event the 3rd gymnast on Gym A will go first, but after then after #4 and #5 go, Gym B will compete in order and then Gym A #1 gymnasts and then #2 gymnast will finish out that rotation. At the next rotation, the 2nd gymnast from Gym B will go first, then the rest of her team, then Gym A gymnasts will go in the order listed, then the first gymnast from Gym B will finish the rotation.

Its also not an opinion that the "best scores" are not held back until the last gymnasts compete. If the 2nd gymnast in the meet earns a 9.9, she gets it.

 

[John]

Our meets do not rotate as yours. The coaches hold the scores cards and present them to the judges in the order they chose. Each event can have a different order but once presented the gymnasts must perform in the card order.

Possibly you are a fair judge and do as you say. If you are I applaud you.

This thread demonstrates the reason I do not like artistry to be judged. Who is to say ballet routine is better than a modern dance routine? It also, to me, demonstrates why the 10.0 scoring system should be replaced with execution and difficulty scoring.

Lastly I beleive every word out of any human is simply an opinion of the speaker.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Our meets do not rotate as yours. The coaches hold the scores cards and present them to the judges in the order they chose. Each event can have a different order but once presented the gymnasts must perform in the card order.

This is how it is in my state, too, in fact all states in my Region.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The fact that there are up to deductions makes this a possibility. Furthemore why would a state or regional meet make rotations random if there wasn't a degree of fairness being injected?

Lastly these are my thoughts I wished to share to open a discussion. You voice a strong opinion and I respect it, but like mine it's just an opinion.

Yes opinion and a discussion.

I don't know what your state does. This weekend was our 5th state meet. There was no assigned random order. We have never had an assigned order to compete. I believe it was the same with the one regional meet we did. But that was Xcel and a while ago. The coaches for our state decided together the order to the best of my recollection. Our coaches have always decided what order the gymmies compete in. And while many times its weakest to strongest. For our gym usually floor and vault as it much more predictable. For bars and beam that is not always the case. This weekend the beam went strongest to weakest.

I would imagine if as an organization USAG felt order affect scoring. Assigned order by random would be an actual rule.

Regarding "up to" deductions that argument doesn't play out either.

Again all things being equal, same routine, same meet, same judge........... For an example L7 one kid does a BWOBHS flawless, the other does a BHSBHS flawless they score the same.

Folks don't get all stressed out about whose toes are pointed better. This argument typically comes up around 2 things.

First why did my daughter who is doing harder skills (in their mind) then the other kid get the same score............. Answer because while parent thinks their kid is doing a "harder" skill they are not.

My daughter does not do giants and she doesn't score higher then kids who do giants really well. She does however score higher then kids whose giants are not all that nice and can't CHS, because her casts are getting to HS. Many incorrectly assume the giant is the harder skill.

The next most common time this comes up is why did the kid with the fall score better then the kid who didn't fall. And that is typically a case of the kid with great form on but a fall takes the hit for just the fall. The kid with no falls scoring poorly, is getting many deductions on form throughout the routine that the kid that fell doesn't get.

Of course a judge blinks and misses something. Sure there are judges who score harder or easier. But things tend to work out at they should regarding placements.

And yes as they go up in level and the competition becomes the strongest gymmies left standing. Placement comes down to decimals. My experience it then comes down to an any given Sunday type of thing. One meet is Sally's day, next meet its Jane's day.

 

[Jazzjerz]

Explain to me how a judge knows which age group the kid is in, what kind of day the gymmie is going to have. Even within rotation?
How do they put the fix in?

So what you are saying is you believe with multiple gyms in a rotation that it is assumed the gym that performs last in the rotation is the "better" gym. And that all coaches put the "poor performing gymnasts first followed by the best.

In my state, "yes" to the last sentence...our coaches, and every other team we compete against, and for who I have knowledge of the various girls on the team, put the "best" gymnasts last. The order changes based on event, and each girls' strength. The exception there is beam (a solid, but not best girl goes first to set the tone with a stuck routine). The only meet that coachs do not get to choose order is the state meet, where a random order is assigned. We had one girl who is a top beam competitor ask to go first at a meet this year, and the coach wouldn't let her, and told her she wanted her to go last.

I don't believe the judges are part of a "fix" as you would call it, as I don't think they have any interest in making sure one team or person wins. I do think it is as others have said, to allow room for a better routine to score higher when they see one in that rotation. Of course, there are always exceptions, and I have seen mid-rotation routines knock it out of the park, and score accordingly, but in our area the trend is undeniably that scores go up as the rotation progresses.

 

[tomtnt]

I'm part of this discussion (not argument) for neither of the reasons you've listed. I actually find it fascinating due to the subjective nature of the sport and am surprised that people don't think there are inherent bias in any sort of judging. Some judges may favor the power gymnast with the big skills while other favor the more "artistic" gymnasts with the clean lines and beautiful leaps and dance.

I'm also sure no one is actually "stress out" - it's a message board for having discussions. it would be pretty dead and boring message board if no one posted anything or everyone agreed with you on everything!

Yes opinion and a discussion.

I don't know what your state does. This weekend was our 5th state meet. There was no assigned random order. We have never had an assigned order to compete. I believe it was the same with the one regional meet we did. But that was Xcel and a while ago. The coaches for our state decided together the order to the best of my recollection. Our coaches have always decided what order the gymmies compete in. And while many times its weakest to strongest. For our gym usually floor and vault as it much more predictable. For bars and beam that is not always the case. This weekend the beam went strongest to weakest.

I would imagine if as an organization USAG felt order affect scoring. Assigned order by random would be an actual rule.

Regarding "up to" deductions that argument doesn't play out either.

Again all things being equal, same routine, same meet, same judge........... For an example L7 one kid does a BWOBHS flawless, the other does a BHSBHS flawless they score the same.

Folks don't get all stressed out about whose toes are pointed better. This argument typically comes up around 2 things.

First why did my daughter who is doing harder skills (in their mind) then the other kid get the same score............. Answer because while parent thinks their kid is doing a "harder" skill they are not.

My daughter does not do giants and she doesn't score higher then kids who do giants really well. She does however score higher then kids whose giants are not all that nice and can't CHS, because her casts are getting to HS. Many incorrectly assume the giant is the harder skill.

The next most common time this comes up is why did the kid with the fall score better then the kid who didn't fall. And that is typically a case of the kid with great form on but a fall takes the hit for just the fall. The kid with no falls scoring poorly, is getting many deductions on form throughout the routine that the kid that fell doesn't get.

Of course a judge blinks and misses something. Sure there are judges who score harder or easier. But things tend to work out at they should regarding placements.

And yes as they go up in level and the competition becomes the strongest gymmies left standing. Placement comes down to decimals. My experience it then comes down to an any given Sunday type of thing. One meet is Sally's day, next meet its Jane's day.

 

[Lisbeth]

Our coaches set the order of Gymnasts at all meets except state & regionals where the order is already predetermined. We mostly compete in Region 5.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

In my state, "yes" to the last sentence...our coaches, and every other team we compete against, and for who I have knowledge of the various girls on the team, put the "best" gymnasts last.

I think if you did a poll you would find more exceptions to this then you think. My experience is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

[Jazzjerz]

I think if you did a poll you would find more exceptions to this then you think. My experience is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

In my area, I think you would find it is generally the rule, as opposed to the exception. A poll of coaches would be fairly useless, as most will not admit to parents that they do this, as it tends to upset those whose girls are slated to go early in the rotation. However, talking to coaches (current and former at multiple gyms) who are friends and acquaintances, this is how they plan the order (for the most part). I don't think you will ever believe or admit that could happen though, based on your previous comments, so we will just have to agree to have these differing opinions.

 

[Flicfliclay]

No, they don't hold back scores, because the order is done by a draw, and we have no idea which girls are better and which ones are not. My partner judge and I once scored the first vault at a State meet as a 9.8, and after the entire meet, flight A & B, it was still the highest vault score and she won. They get scored on what is performed.

The only meets that allow coaches to order the gymnasts are big invitationals. For regular meets there is a rotation sheet that must be followed, except for bars where they are allowed to rearrange for bar settings.

the only meets we have that are "computer generated" are state and regionals...

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I actually find it fascinating due to the subjective nature of the sport and am surprised that people don't think there are inherent bias in any sort of judging. Some judges may favor the power gymnast with the big skills while other favor the more "artistic" gymnasts with the clean lines and beautiful leaps and dance.

If you are human you have bias.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

Again a judge who likes up and cute is not likely to give as much artistic credit to my serious kid.

If that is a bone of contention for folks then their kids are in the wrong sport. Something objective, like track or swimming where the clock determines the winner.

For pretty much anything else there is subjective. Refs calls at a football, baseball, soccer game, subjective. Things like ice skating, gymnastics, diving even more subjective

But the same routine with different skills performed to the same level will score the same. You don't get more credit for a BHS vs a BWO.

And regarding difficulty credit. There was a whole lot of complaining at this years Olympics that clean routines have been sacrificed because its better to do harder skills and screw them up. Many folks in the skating world don't like the over emphasis on difficulty. Many feel the winner should be the one with a more perfect even if not quite as difficult performance.

 

[tpMom]

This is how it is in my state, too, in fact all states in my Region.

This is how our region does it too. Our coach let's the girls decide what order they compete in, within reason of course!

 

[gymnastmom05]

Well, my DD’s head coach firmly believes judges in our area reward a higher skill to a harder routine (performed well) compared to a more “watered down” routine. I’ve also sat at plenty of judges tables during our hosted meets over the years and have seen/heard the judges making note of a routine they felt was good and write down the score. If another routine came along, they would discuss if it was better than “the one”. I’m sure not all judges do this but to assume it never happens is also crazy.