Women Coach/judge question re: L6 bars

[Ali'sMom]

I have a question about the cast handstand for a Level 6.

Which would score better - a new, less-than-stellar straddle handstand that makes it about 20 degrees above horizontal, or a very pretty, very tight & straight cast that only makes it about 10 degrees above horizontal?

For a coach - which would you have your gymmie do? (providing that neither affects the next skill any differently)

 

[CanAmGymMum]

For me, as a coach, it really depends on the kid. I have some kids that just don't have a good straight cast to handstand but they can do a straddle cast to handstand. Most kids end up doing straddle cast to handstands anyway so, for most of my level 6's, I encourage straddling, even if it doesn't quite make it all the way to handstand, with the hope of progressing to get to the handstand during season. We don't fast track to level 6 at my club. If we did, my only exception to that would be for the young ones still working on casting shape.

So, to summarize, in most cases I'd do the straddle because it's more progressive. If straddle casts are good enough for Nastia, they're good enough for my kids. And the sooner they can get a handstand in their routine, the better.

 

[aerials]

At our last meet I saw a team that had their girls straddle up as far as they could go. 2 made it to handstand and 2 did not but pretty close and straight. They all scored really well. I had never seen that before though.

 

[Ali'sMom]

Thank you.

I meant more of - a straddle cast handstand that isn't all that pretty, and "might" make it 20 degrees above horizontal, versus no attempt at handstand, but a very solid, pretty, straight cast that makes it less than 20 degrees above horizontal.
I know both would get amplitude deductions.

Assuming the ugly-attempted-handstand made it higher, which would score better - the ugly higher one, or the pretty lower one?

 

[gymdog]

Depends how well she can work out of the handstand (so, clear hip out or swing flyaway out). Safety first obviously. Many coaches want them to start using the handstand to gain strength and learn the timing of working out of, even though there's more risk they might go over or get deductions.

 

[BarCoach]

I have found that good form usually scores out over ugly but bigger skills.

 

[raenndrops]

In your example, there is only a 10° difference maximum... the slightly lower, with better form cast would be better.

I think some people were misreading the straddle to be within 20° of HANDSTAND... and, if that were the case, I would opt for that (anywhere above 45°) over the slightly over horizontal because the amplitude deduction would be less. Just remember if there is an arch, they only judge the lowest part of the angle.

 

[Ali'sMom]

Thank you! Yes, I realize I might have been confusing.
DD is going to be working with her coach tonight to see just how close she is. I know she's been working them, but with the whole group, not sure if anyone has actually looked at her to see just how consistent or close she is. I'm thinking there's no way she'll be close enough for next weekend, but maybe soon...

 

[gymdog]

In your example, there is only a 10° difference maximum... the slightly lower, with better form cast would be better.

I think some people were misreading the straddle to be within 20° of HANDSTAND... and, if that were the case, I would opt for that (anywhere above 45°) over the slightly over horizontal because the amplitude deduction would be less. Just remember if there is an arch, they only judge the lowest part of the angle.

I guess I did misread that because it was termed a straddle "handstand". Upon rereading I see it is 20 degree above horizontal. While I would say keep working on it, I'm not sure it's going to make a difference in the score and depending on the form could be lower.

 

[munchkin3]

So just to clarify,
I very clean solid level 6 bar routine that has no major errors, where the casts reach above horizontal.....would score worse than a clean routine with ugly cast handstands?
Does the clean routine with slightly above horizontal have a 10 start value?

 

[profmom]

Munchkin, I think it would depend on if the cast is needed as a B. If so, it would have to be higher to count.

I can tell you that last year when DS was competing L6, he was taking huge deductions on his messy casts even though they were going high enough for him to do giants in both directions. I'm talking probably a half point or more on each one. So yes, clean is better with some judges!

 

[Ali'sMom]

I guess I did misread that because it was termed a straddle "handstand". Upon rereading I see it is 20 degree above horizontal. While I would say keep working on it, I'm not sure it's going to make a difference in the score and depending on the form could be lower.

I should have used the word "attempted" handstand - LOL! Sorry for the confusion.

 

[raenndrops]

So just to clarify,
I very clean solid level 6 bar routine that has no major errors, where the casts reach above horizontal.....would score worse than a clean routine with ugly cast handstands?
Does the clean routine with slightly above horizontal have a 10 start value?

Our L6s all have 10.0 SV. None of them cast too much over horizontal. They each use a clear hip circle as their B. We minimize casts to minimize cast angle deductions. They place higher than some girls on other teams that cast higher, but uglier (all else being equal).

 

[gymdog]

I should have used the word "attempted" handstand - LOL! Sorry for the confusion.

No problem

It's hard to say what would hypothetically outscore what because it depends on the degrees of the issue. You'll get 1-3 tenths for a for a low cast and probably 1-3 for messy as well...so sometimes it has to come down to where the gymnast is most confident and what will help her developmentally in terms of getting to a higher level on bars.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Related question: at level 6, do casts between horizontal and handstand incur an amplitude deduction?

 

[wandrewsjr]

Related question: at level 6, do casts between horizontal and handstand incur an amplitude deduction?

Yes, all optional casts(level 6-10) are evaluated using the same amplitude deduction standard.

 

[gymjunkie]

I don't ever let a kid compete L6 if they don't have a cast handstand. L5 is more appropriate if they have all the skills minus a true handstand.

 

[raenndrops]

I don't ever let a kid compete L6 if they don't have a cast handstand. L5 is more appropriate if they have all the skills minus a true handstand.

As long as they can meet the requirements and score out of L5 twice, if they competed for the Jr High team before our season started, we move them up. If they are younger than that, we prefer a full season because our regular season is only the beginning of November to the end of February. We take off a week in November for Thanksgiving and two weeks for Christmas. We have 7 meets during the season. The only way we would let a younger girl move up like the older girls was if we didn't have enough to field a full L5 team - in which case, she may start learning choral with the Jr high team and practice her floor occasionally.

 

[chalkbowl]

I don't ever let a kid compete L6 if they don't have a cast handstand. L5 is more appropriate if they have all the skills minus a true handstand.

Level 6 is so incredibly varied in our area that if we waited for every kid to have a cast handstand to compete level 6 we would lose them to competing gyms. That being said we do require a handstand AND giants for level 7, so we do end up with kids that do several years of level 6...but at least it gets them out of the compulsory program.

 

[Ali'sMom]

I don't ever let a kid compete L6 if they don't have a cast handstand. L5 is more appropriate if they have all the skills minus a true handstand.

Thankfully for my daughter our gym isn't as strict. If our gym didn't let her do 6 without a handstand, she wouldn't be in gym this year - she scored out of 5 already with a very nice BWO on beam, but has since hit a paralyzing fear/mental block, and can not do it at the moment. We are hoping she will get it back before season is over, but it's not looking like it will happen.