confusion over gymnast's progression to level 4

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno... I've really enjoyed reading your posts (and please DO continue... I'm learning so much).

I DO beg to differ on high school gymnastics though. In Prince William County, Virginia... we definitely had a women's high school gymnastics team the entire time I attended high school. That was1972 through 1976. I've still got the old yearbooks to prove it! I had a few friends on the team and I so desperately wanted to join the team as well... it was NOT to be! Never mind the fact that I couldn't walk a straight line on the balance beam. Not sure exactly when they began the team... as I said, it was already in place when I attended as a freshman in 1972!

Anyway, please do continue with your posts!

hi there, i'll clarify. there were several girls teams at that time. and not throughout entire states at the majority of high schools in that state. they could have been intramural and had no state championship meet. if your county had one it was rare. conneticut was another, but not all over, was intramural between schools and they had no state championship meet.

a teamate and i were asked by our high school coach to help him begin a girls program in 1972 my senior year. illinois did not have that 1st state meet until 1977/78. up until then it was intramural, and as the schools grew it became intramural between schools.

have i made sense?

i looked at your post again. you said 1972 and already in place when you were a freshman. did you mean already in place before you entered high school? even an intramural program at that time would be very rare.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

"illinois is the only state left where PE is required to receive a high school diploma"...

Nope... here in Northern Virginia, most neighboring counties require at least 2 years of PE in order to receive a high school diploma. . .

sorry...i type faster than the brain. 4 years of PE in illinois to diploma. i intended 4. i don't believe there is another state with same requirement of 4. if there is i hope someone sounds in. thanks.

by the way, my buddy moved down your way 10 years ago. he is a professor at VCU. he coached with me for 18 years. and he has just helped his son and future daughter-in-law open a gym down that way. i was STUNNED when he told me that they compete gymnastics in middle school. that left most states in the mid 80's. somehow your state is still hanging on.

 

[Claire]

the perfect storm would now play out. gymnastics kept growing, foreign coaches temporarily filled our coaching shortage, and more clubs were on the horizon. even a layperson could see that if programs were not in place to train coaches...well then...you're going to eventually run out of coaches. and as the 1st generation of coaches aged, then this might even reach an expedited speed of light.

okay folks. that's it for now. more later.[/quote]


What perfect storm is now playing out? I am really interested in this. I love to learn the history behind things. What do you see going on now? Thanks for taking your time to write all this!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i promise...i'll get there. remember, i left it with it raining. promise.

 

[gymdog]

by the way, my buddy moved down your way 10 years ago. he is a professor at VCU. he coached with me for 18 years. and he has just helped his son and future daughter-in-law open a gym down that way. i was STUNNED when he told me that they compete gymnastics in middle school. that left most states in the mid 80's. somehow your state is still hanging on.

I've never heard of this in VA...even high school gymnastics is pretty endangered here, and there hasn't been boy's high school gymnastics pretty much anywhere here for more than five years. Used to have it though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there used to be some sort of middle school program, but I don't think we have had anything like that much in the last decade or so. VA USAG only just recently restarted a prep-op program...there hasn't been much more "recreational" competitive opportunities here. A fair amount of schools have high school gym...but mostly the regional and state competitions are dominated by current club competitors (or girls who have just stopped doing JO). USAG JO levels is the main gymnastics game in this state, although I guess we'll see how the prep thing goes. I'm not really involved in it so I don't know too much.

I have heard however that WI and maybe MN have JV and varsity school gymnastics, and this can include 7th and 8th graders. I find this interesting because at that rate there is actually an opportunity to get a fairly talented kid with maybe just a little prior experience or who is just athletic, to get good at least with tumbling, and then beam and vault...bars a little trickier of course...but with 6 years by senior year, I can see that being plausible.

 

[cathiann]

I have heard however that WI and maybe MN have JV and varsity school gymnastics, and this can include 7th and 8th graders. I find this interesting because at that rate there is actually an opportunity to get a fairly talented kid with maybe just a little prior experience or who is just athletic, to get good at least with tumbling, and then beam and vault...bars a little trickier of course...but with 6 years by senior year, I can see that being plausible.

Speaking as a Minnesotan with a HS gymnast, yes, we have JV and varsity HS gymnastics--and you can compete HS starting in 7th grade. There are some girls that just start in gymnastics in 7th grade, but alot of the HS team girls have come from club--next year Sami's HS team will have 5 girls that were at her former club (where my 11 yr old is currently) team (and 2 of them went to level 8 there).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

further downthread i will address the USAG level system, the several reasons it was implemented, and where we are today in our perfect storm. for the present, i must set you up with a bit of education about gymnastics and what is learned that cannot be readily seen.

i would like you to personalize the word gymnastics for just a moment. for this presentation we will call it a noun. a name. you pick for your DS or DD. jimgymnastics. jannastics. the pinnacle definition of coach, parent, and master all in one. supreme wisdom. the holy grail of expectation for modern day gymnastics. gymnastics shows no bias. gymnastics does not discriminate. gymnastics treats ALL with fairness across the mat. and to reiterate...gymnastics is the most difficult sport, and possibly experience, your child will ever endeavor. i will begin with jimnastics.

for jimgymnastics, he says the following:

1. johnny, don't get to cocky when you have accomplished your 10 circles in a row, on pommel horse, then smirk at your teamates. when you least expect it, i will have you smack your shin, or smash your crotch on one of the pommels, and then i will throw you from the horse uncontrollably. you WILL learn humility. you are not bigger than me or your teamates. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

2. johnny, do not cheat when doing dips and handstand push-ups at parallel bars. your coach said 20. he meant 20. and done in 20 seconds. if you don't, and when you need that extra reserve conditioning strength at the end of a routine at an important competition the most, i will unexpectedly, and without a warning, atomic drop your body to a faceplant 7 feet down to the mat in front of everyone. including your grandparents, and scare whatever life they have left in them right out of them. this will cause them to ask your mom and dad if it's a good idea that their grandchild is learning my trade and it looks dangerous. your mom and dad will be embarassed by the inquiry. but that's okay. parents were made to embarass their children. you will learn discipline and never to cheat on your conditioning. the last handstand, whether pressing up or swinging to a handstand before a dismount on parallel bars, will be the most strenuous hold of muscular instability you may encounter 2nd only to still rings. so the same rules apply to rings. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say. rings is even further from the ground.

3. johnny, do not double bounce your teamate and best friend on the trampoline when your coaches turn their backs. you know the rule is 1 at a time and no horseplay. and never double bouncing. if you don't heed my warning, i will have the trampoline sheer off the tibial head of what used to be your best friend. you will throw up. you will have headaches and feel awful for days after learning your friend had to have surgery and will be out of training for 4-6 months. you will learn to comply with all of my rules and even those that you don't understand as they apply to things that look like fun. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

4. johnny, you have been told countless times to pay attention and not pass in front of another athlete when they are tumbling or vaulting. if you don't heed my warning, i will plant the thought of knocking you down into the mind of the most powerful female gymnast in your program. public humiliation by a female athlete are one of the tools that i use to correct behaviour. if your parents were not able to finish your education as it applies to looking both ways before you cross the street, then i will have to do that. and if i am unsuccessful teaching you to yield in traffic and follow the rules of the road, then more likely than not you will be an accident statistic at State Farm.

5. johnny, punching or kicking the equipment is not the appropriate way to deal with what i need you to learn. heed my warning, or the next time you kick one of my children you will be dealt a hand or foot fracture. and i will patiently wait to make this happen the week before your regional competition. you will learn patience and perserverance and to respect the process of learning AND never to kick or punch something that does not belong to you. acting out this way is unbecoming of a gymnast. our historical demeanor is ancient. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

6. johnny, you will have days at school, that when found out, you will be made fun of and teased because you do gymnastics. you will hear other boys and their dads say untowardly stupid things about your sport as it relates to other perceived manly sports. if this happens, please don't fret. make a new friend. remember, your other friend is out with that surgery because of your horseplay. so, lets do something productive for mankind and your redemption and educate your new friend about the benefits of gymnastics. talk to your coach about inviting him to a practice. don't forget to tell your coach that your new friend to be plays football. i have already instructed your coach what needs to be done when he learns that your friend to be is a football player. and your friend will then stay for your usual conditioning program. but your coach added cardio that day so that your new friend can see all that gymnastics encompasses and some of what i have to offer. half way thru your friend will break down, start crying, and then summarily vomit. don't be alarmed. he will survive as surely as you did. you will not believe the new friends, in a new circle, that you will have made the following week in school. others will do what i say also. learn by my spirited and well intended techniques. i am the master of behaviour modification. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

7. johnny, you have been repeatedly told to not 'clap' or crazily throw the chalk ifrom the bucket. heed my warning or i will instruct the coach to inform your parents that you will now be manning the vacuum every sunday at 6:00 a.m. you will vacuum all of the chalk and to include the girls area also. this will take about 3 hours and will surely anger your parents. this will anger your parents to such a degree, and because for a period of time they will not be able to go to church and then to brunch with your grandparents as they usually do every sunday, that they will consider sunday a lost cause and have you wake up at 4:00 a.m. to clean your room, and before you must go vacuum the gym, because gym practice takes up most of your time and your room is a mess. you will learn respect for your things as well as others. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

8. johnny, don't be worried when you enter middle school or high school. when you are confronted with the pressure of others that want to drag you down the depressing and potentially life ending road of drugs and alcohol, you will already know that saying "no" is much easier than accomplishing that 100 circle club that you just joined the day before. i have taught you self respect and pride of what it means to be a gymnast. when you were scared, i taught you to face adversity every time i allowed you to land on your feet. and not your head. from that you learned the meaning of courage. self-respect and courage in the face of adversity will carry you far in your life. i am gymnastics and you will listen when i silently tell you to say no. heed my warning or learn regret. the regret that everything i taught you went down that abysmal and depressing road of drugs and alcohol and you can no longer experience the libido exilir i have already given you in your abilities to enjoy flipping and twisting. and there will be no more trampoline. and maybe forever. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

9. johnny, you will always and forever respect females. i have allowed you the privilege of working and training with them side by side. you have learned that they experience all of the ups and downs that you do. you have learned that they have good days and bad days just like you. you have learned to respect them as athletes and as human beings just as i have taught you to respect me. you have learned that they too are trying as hard as they can to overcome my rigorous demands and expectations. and you see that giving up is not an option for both of you. therefore, you have learned that your work ethics are synonymous. we are same. learn this well and it will take you to a happy and prosperous life one day. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

10. johnny, there are no guarantees in life or in sports. i will teach you that you can accomplish almost anything, and things that your friends will never do, and that not making it to the olympics is all right. i will teach you that your dream which I planted in your mind are found on the longest road you will ever travel. the road named process. it will be on this road that i will teach you that you are who you will become because of the process, and not that you failed in not becoming who you thought you would be at the end of that road. and when you are done with me you will take your learning process to heights that you could never achieve on my trampoline. and in yellow paint written along process road you will experience sacrifice. that of your own. and that of all the others that were right behind you to get you to the end of the road. you will always respect the sacrifice that others have made for you. this includes every gymnast that came before you. and you will always respect that road. i am gymnastics and i am done.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

for jannastics, she says the following:

1. susie, don't get to conceited and think you're all that when you have accomplished your 2 flip-flops series in a row on balance beam, then smirk at your teamates. when you least expect it, i will have you smack your shin or foot, or crotch the beam, and then i will throw you from the beam uncontrollably. you WILL learn humility. you are not bigger than me or your teamates. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

2. susie, do not cheat when doing kips and kip cast handstands in a row when your at uneven bars. your coach said 20. she meant 20. and done in 20 seconds. if you don't, and when you need that extra reserve conditioning strength at the end of a routine at an important competition the most, i will unexpectedly, and without a warning, bend your arms and send you to the mat in front of everyone. including your grandparents, and scare whatever life they have left in them right out of them. this will cause them to ask your mom and dad if it's a good idea that their grandchild is learning my trade and it looks dangerous. your mom and dad will be embarassed by the inquiry. but that's okay. parents were made to embarass their children. you will learn discipline and never to cheat on your conditioning. the last handstand, whether pressing up or swinging to a handstand before that D dismount on bars, will be the most strenuous and demanding hold of muscular instability you may encounter 2nd only to E dismounts. so the same rules apply to conditioning for that E dismount. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say. E dismounts are even harder and more demanding in the landings and can determine whether you land on your feet.

3. susie, do not double bounce your teamate and best friend on the trampoline when your coaches turn their backs. you know the rule is 1 at a time and no horseplay. and never double bouncing. if you don't heed my warning, i will have the trampoline sheer off the tibial head of what used to be your best friend. you will throw up. you will have headaches and feel awful for days after learning your friend had to have surgery and will be out of training for 4-6 months. you will probably shop and buy her a cuddly stuffed bear. you will learn to comply with all of my rules and even those that you don't understand as they apply to things that look like fun. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

4. susie, you have been told countless times to pay attention and not pass in front of another athlete when they are tumbling or vaulting. if you don't heed my warning, i will plant the thought of knocking you down into the mind of the most powerful female gymnast in your program. public humiliation by one of your own are one of the tools that i use to correct behaviour. if your parents were not able to finish your education as it applies to looking both ways before you cross the street, then i will have to do that. and if i am unsuccessful teaching you to yield in traffic and follow the rules of the road, then more likely than not you will be an accident statistic at State Farm.

5.susie, punching or kicking the equipment is not the appropriate way to deal with what i need you to learn. heed my warning, or the next time you kick one of my children you will be dealt a hand or foot fracture. and i will patiently wait to make this happen the week before your regional competition. you will learn patience and perserverance and to respect the process of learning AND never to kick or punch something that does not belong to you. acting out this way is unbecoming of a gymnast. our historical demeanor is ancient. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

6. susie, you will have days at school, that when found out, you will be made fun of and teased by boys because you do gymnastics. you will hear other boys and their dads say untowardly stupid things about your sport as it relates to other perceived sports. if this happens, please don't fret. make a new friend. remember, your other friend is out with that surgery because of your horseplay. so, lets do something productive for mankind and your redemption and educate your new friend about the benefits of gymnastics. talk to your coach about inviting him to a practice. don't forget to tell your coach that your new friend is NOT a boyfriend and he plays football. i have already instructed your coach what needs to be done when he learns that your friend, that is a boy, to be is a football player. and your friend will then stay for your usual conditioning program. but your coach added cardio that day so that your new friend can see all that gymnastics encompasses and some of what i have to offer. half way thru your friend will break down, start crying, and then summarily vomit. don't be alarmed. he will survive as surely as you did. you will not believe the new friends, in a new circle, that you will have made the following week in school. others will do what i say also. learn by my spirited and well intended techniques. i am the master of behaviour modification. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

7. susie, you have been repeatedly told to not 'clap' or crazily throw the chalk ifrom the bucket. heed my warning or i will instruct the coach to inform your parents that you will now be manning the vacuum every sunday at 6:00 a.m. you will vacuum all of the chalk and to include the boys area also. this will take about 3 hours and will surely anger your parents. this will anger your parents to such a degree, and because for a period of time they will not be able to go to church and then to brunch with your grandparents as they usually do every sunday, that they will consider sunday a lost cause and have you wake up at 3:00 a.m. to clean your room as you have more leos to pick up that the boys don't, and before you must go vacuum the gym, because gym practice takes up most of your time and your room is a mess. you will learn respect for your things as well as others. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

8. susie, don't be worried when you enter middle school or high school. when you are confronted with the pressure of others that want to drag you down the depressing and potentially life ending road of drugs and alcohol, you will already know that saying "no" is much easier than accomplishing that double back club that you just joined the day before. i have taught you self respect and pride of what it means to be a gymnast. when you were scared, i taught you to face adversity every time i allowed you to land on your feet. and not your head. from that you learned the meaning of courage. self-respect and courage in the face of adversity will carry you far in your life. i am gymnastics and you will listen when i silently tell you to say no. heed my warning or learn regret. the regret that everything i taught you went down that abysmal and depressing road of drugs and alcohol and you can no longer experience the libido exilir i have already given you in your abilities to enjoy flipping and twisting. and there will be no more trampoline. and maybe forever. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

9. susie, you will always and forever respect males. i have allowed you the privilege of working and training with them side by side. you have learned that they experience all of the ups and downs that you do. you have learned that they have good days and bad days just like you. you have learned to respect them as athletes and as human beings just as i have taught you to respect me. you have learned that they too are trying as hard as they can to overcome my rigorous demands and expectations. and you see that giving up is not an option for both of you. therefore, you have learned that your work ethics are synonymous. we are same. learn this well and it will take you to a happy and prosperous life one day. i am gymnastics and you will do what i say.

10. susie, there are no guarantees in life or in sports. i will teach you that you can accomplish almost anything, and things that your friends will never do, and that not making it to the olympics is all right. i will teach you that your dream which I planted in your mind are found on the longest road you will ever travel. the road named process. it will be on this road that i will teach you that you are who you will become because of the process, and not that you failed in not becoming who you thought you would be at the end of that road. and when you are done with me you will take your learning process to heights that you could never achieve on my trampoline. and in yellow paint written along process road you will see and experience sacrifice. that of your own. and that of all the others that were right behind you to get you to the end of the road. you will always respect the sacrifice that others have made for you. this includes every gymnast that came before you. and you will always respect that road. and you will be proud of yourself when you realize that i was truthful that you could accomplish anything that the boys do. i am gymnastics and i am done.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

i looked at your post again. you said 1972 and already in place when you were a freshman. did you mean already in place before you entered high school? even an intramural program at that time would be very rare.

Yep! I just went to re-check my yearbook from my freshman year. There was definitely a team.... don't remember much about them from THAT year... but I do remember going to the meets from about 10th grade and up. I had a friend on the team so I went to give my support to her! (I was in Prince William County at that time). I do know all of our neighboring high schools also had girls' gymnastics. Don't know how far these compertitions went (as far as a State meet or whatnot). It WAS, however, a Varsity sport, nad not intramurals.

As Gymdog has stated, women's gymnastics at the high school level is definitely an endangered sport (at least in Virginia). Fairfax County just cut the program, Loudoun and Prince William are still hanging in there (at least for now). And most of the girls who do well at the high school level are either previous Club members or belong to a club that encourages (or at least does not DISCOURAGE) the girls to compete on their H.S. teams. Of course most of the girls who get to the State meet are Level 10 girls. So even the high school team is really another "club" team after all!

I"m off to read today's posts! Keep 'em coming!

 

[gatormom]

Out of lurkdom...

I was on a high school team in NYC in the very early 1970's, and I am sure this program had been around for a number of years before that. We competed with other high schools nearby and then had a championship. If club gymnastics was around, I was not aware of it.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

here are some quick facts. aau was formed in 1888 comprised of all those immigrants i spoke of in the other post from sokol and turners. national federation of high schools was formed in 1920. ncaa formed in 1910.

Boys Gymnastics Chronology

1924First known gymnastics meet between Illinois high schools held (Chicago Public League meet).1952First statewide invitational meet conducted by University of Illinois.1954Long horse (vault) competition introduced.1956All-around competition introduced.1958IHSA takes over sponsorship of state meet.1969Tumbling replaced by free exercise.1975Free exercise replaced by floor exercise.1978Trampoline competition discontinued

Girls Gymnastics Chronology

1969IHSA approves interscholastic contests in girls gymnastics.1977First IHSA girls gymnastics meet held at Maine East H.S. in Park Ridge.1978Teams allowed to qualify and advance to the state final; state final moved from winter to spring sports season.

remember, prior to 1972 title 9 there were no "recognized" womens sports that were "organized" by the national federation of high schools. all womens sports prior to 1972 were considered "interscholastic sports" or "interscholastic intramural sports".

as i said in the earlier post, Illinois was the first to have both boys and girls gymnastics at a recognized state championship competition.

i checked new york and it looked like 1986. i called my buddy in new york, he said that sounded right, that it was spotty thru new york, and before 1986 it was competition just between a few schools in various counties and was considered "interscholastics" or "intramural". this was for both boys and girls.

i hope i am being clear so that it doesn't sound like semantics.

now from the state of virginia high school website:

"DID YOU KNOW -- Gymnastics was the first "modern era" VHSL sponsored girls sport. From 1969 until 1973, VHSL gymnasts competed for individual titles in Floor Exercise, Balance Beam, Uneven Parallel Bars, Vault, Tumbling (discontinued as an event in 1973), and All-Around events. In 1974, team competition was added, with Midlothian claiming the AAA championship and Varina winning the first of four "unclassified" titles (1974-77). Today, Group AAA continues to sponsor team championships, while gymnasts from all groups compete for individual titles in an "open" meet. Lake "

as you can see, they organized in 1969 [illinois womens organized in 1966] but still do not have a state championship competition recognized by the national federation of high schools. this may have something to do with 'how' many schools are represented to be considered a "state championships".

so, to tumblesqueensmom & gatormom, you are both correct in that it was at your high schools as "organized" and at least "organized intramurals" and/or as "interscholastic" competitions. hope this doesn't sound like i'm mincing semantics. the same held true for connecticut and pennsylvania in their day.

and i regret i must go now. i'll be back with the rest soon.

 

[gatormom]

You'll get no argument from me that it was interscholastic. All I know is there were quite a number of schools that had programs, we had dual and tri school meets, we had championships from across NYC, and we had varsity and JV. We had a dedicated gymnastics room in the basement with equipment. Some of us were beginners , and some kids had experience. I actually think gymnastics started dying out in NYC schools in the 80's and 90's not getting more. I looked it up and I think only nine schools have it now.

Olga Korbut and Cathy Rigsby helped to attract a lot of us to the sport.

It didn't matter to me whether it was a recognized sport or interscholastic. It was a lot of fun and I loved competing for the school.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

okay. usag and the level system. and about usgf/usag circa 1964. the year i began gymnastics. this was also the 1st year that usgf held a national competition. girls didn't come until the 70's. 1963 being the last year of the aau being the national governing body for gymnastics, but, aau still continued to sanction aau national gymnastics competitions as they had done previously for approx 50 years. in fact, there are still those competitions today along with usaigc. incidentally, usaigc was founded by ed knepper and gary goodson both now retired. gymnastics legends they were. anyway, the national 'tumbling' champion at the 1st usgf national championship meet was none other than steve whitlock. steve whitlock formerly owned a club in michigan in the 70's where judy dobransky, current level 10 judge and former brevet [olympic] also coached. judy had a daughter named dana who went on to univ. of alabama and was teamates with dee dee foster. both elites in the middle 80's. AND steve whitlock can be found still nurturing gymnastics at the USAG national office ofr well over 25 years. one of the finest human beings looking over your childrens shoulders.

the perfect storm. 1980 boycott which hurt gymnastics until 1984. perestroika for the eastern block causing their coaches to come here, to replace open coaching positions here in the US, because the few clubs we had couldn't pay a living wage, right as title 9 hit full force as explained above and PE was changing away from specializing, and the cutting of mens gymnastics programs, which meant no pedagogical training ground for former gymnasts at the university level, which meant that those formers went to college and majored in business/tech boom/engineering related fields, and then left gymnastics for greener pastures, right when the club industry boomed during reagan, and more kids came to gymnastics than ever before, when the 2nd shortage of coaches hit, at the same time soccer and lawsuits hit our industry with gale forces. and if that wasn't enough, liability insurance soared through the roof.

whew! got all that.

usag saw these trends coming as early as 1982 and under the direction of mike jacki. kathy kelly as his right hand woman. kathy kelly is still a VIP to this day. womens program director for usag, in charge of the national team both junior and senior, and the most competent person i have ever seen do her job at the office. she is also a judge and her daughter was a class 1 gymnast in the 'old' and prior to 1989 system. there were several others, but these 2 would be the force behind the changes that would come to be in 1989.

they realized several things:

1. soccer, which perestroika and the mexican americans brought here, was kicking the butt of gymnastics membership. this meant no athletes.

2. soccer buys a then $15 ball, a $12 jersey, find a field, with a VOLUNTEER coach, and BINGO...we got game. the kids received metals, trophies, and achievement awards.

3. we needed a sequential teaching system in a book, which had never been done before, to train coaches how teach gymnastics in a safe and progressive fashion because the university was no longer there to do it.

4. a safety certification program to test a coaches knowledge. this would also be put in a book along with live certification with safety certifiers. i was one those first safety certifiers. this book would come to explain too the legal duties that club owners and coaches had while delivering gymnastics to minors.

5. how can we get more kids started, and make it easy to do like soccer, keep it inexpensive, make it safe and easy to learn, then RETENTION, RETENTION, RETENTION.
did i say retention?

sorry, have to break. power went out due to a severe storm that is hitting as i type. geesh...i should have never type "gale forces"....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

can you believe i spelled medal "metal"? i'll try to slow down a bit.

6. usag wanted a way to plausibly regulate safety. the jump in difficulty from 1980-1986 was humongous. there were positive equipment changes. triples being done on floor which made doubles become common. yurchenkos being done across the pond although not here for the JO program until 1990[91?]. only the elites were allowed to do them and they were far and few between. i had 1 in 1989 and it was a layout full and on the old horse. difficulty was increasing at all the events. it was just a matter of time until the floodgates of difficulty opened into the JO program and USAG wanted to be in front of being proactive.

so...for you parents, nothing has changed in gymnastics. but the code of points for both the elite level and the JO program have significantly changed. today, you must do more and more difficulty to accomplish said same prior to 1989. here is the translation:

class 1= level 10 but level 10 is much harder.[fewer than 1,000 kids at this level]
class 2= level 9 but level 9 is a bit harder[fewer than 5,000 kids at this level]
class 3= level 8 but most things near the same.
class 3 compulsory= level 5/6 give or take a few skills but pretty even.

level 7 and below is developmental. and you cannot predict where you fall, at what age, no matter how much time you spend in the gym. gymnastics is dependent on the biology of the child. and God didn't really intend for us to be doing some of things we do in gymnastics.

level 6,5,4,3,2,1. basic gymnastics. the ground floor. the training ground for coaches and judges who did not have gymnastics experience. big money maker for the entire industry. AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE COMPULSORY MUSIC. the coaches have been suffering much longer than you. without these levels there would be no elite program which means no olympic and national teams. and also the measurement for sifting out bad parents who will not go the distance and giving young children a chance to experience the sport without alot of pressure or risk/stress to the body.

before the level system, gymnasts age groups were 9-11, 12-14, 15 & up.
today? depends on what kind of meet you attend. the age groups for most levels can be found on the usag site. make sure you look at TOPS and ELITE as they have age requirements also. and age requirements vary from year to year depending on how many in each age group there are from year to year. and level to level.

bottom line, a gymnast prior to 1988 was training in the sport 10 years before they achieved their highest level...whatever that level was.

today? a gymnast will train 10 years before they achieve their highest level.

and that highest level will depend on where your child trains. and some gyms will always continue to get the job done, and others will not. there are gyms that want nothing to do with upper levels. and there are gyms that want nothing to do with low level, yet they know they need low level to pay the bills. there is no perfect model. do you understand that as a parent?

and there are more gyms that work their butts off and would love nothing more than to progress to the higher levels. BUT YOU WILL NOT SUPPORT THEM! in most markets, a single coach must make a minimum $24,000 per year to make ends meet. and this will be a young coach who will need lots of mentoring and lots of exposure to the education that is required to skillfully teach high level gymnastics. remember, we do need specialized training. but summer hits and 200 of you bale out of your gyms and say see ya later in the fall. that's 200 X tuition X 3 months. do you really think your gyms are McDonalds? running gyms are just not that simple. and the labor pool for that kind of work is never ending. how long have some of you been waiting for a coach to be hired at your gyms? i hear all the time, and have even seen posts on this board that have stated, and i'm paraphrasing "i don't have to stay where i'm at. if i don't like a wendy's i'll find another one or another restaurant all together". and other variations along the same lines. as a club owner, and as a coach that has accomplished everything that you can, both boys and girls, except placing someone on the olymic team, i read posts like that and smile. my thoughts are that you have no clue. and i mean that respecfully. i don't pretend to ever tell a parent how to be a parent or how to do their jobs better. yet as a club owner? we hear it from you every day. and if not you today...it will be tomorrow.

less than 2% of our industry is grossing above $500,000.00 per year. and trust me...those gyms are not placing anyone at level 9 nationals and above. do any of you have any idea what this gyms business model net net is? this gym has over 1000 kids and will have approx 15 coaches. full and part-time. do you have any idea how many rolls/feet of toilet paper goes thru in a year? didn't think so.

less than 2% of the coaches are over 50 years of age. do you have any idea why? the overwhelming amount of coaches found at level 10 nationals and above are probably in this category. i am one of those. and there are some coaches in their mid 40's at these levels. and a couple 30 somethings. i can tell you that i have been at level 10/class 1 nationals every year for over 30 years. it is the same people. just much older, more tired, and more gray [with the exception of those that color their hair] and much wiser. and we get a couple of new young bucks every year only to not see them the next.

approx 80% of the coaches are between 18 and 27 years of age. these coaches are overwhelmingly seen at level 7 and down.

that leaves approx 18% between the age of 27 and 50. and here you find these coaches in this age group coaching anyone from the bottom all the way to the top.

okay. must break again. thanks for being patient. and by the way, if you are interested in seeing more surveys that i'm referencing off the top of my head, go to the usag website. hit button publications. go to back issues of TECHNIQUE and find any of the articles related to industry surveys. if you have any questions before my next post please do so and i'll do my best if the interest is there. good night!

 

[gymkat]

AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE COMPULSORY MUSIC. the coaches have been suffering much longer than you.

Ha! and YES! Parents get to sit through 8-10 meets/year. Those of us who coach and judge get to listen to it 5 days/week, at least 2 hours/practice, and every single judging weekend (which is most weekends during the season)... and not just one session- try marathon meets of 9-12 sessions when you're assigned to one event and one level for the entire 3-day weekend!

So how do you see the age demographics in coaches changing over the next 10-15 years?

 

[gymluvr33]

I always knew it was harder for coaches than us gymnasts and our parents, but OUCH, those marathon meets must be killer!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Ha! and YES! Parents get to sit through 8-10 meets/year. Those of us who coach and judge get to listen to it 5 days/week, at least 2 hours/practice, and every single judging weekend (which is most weekends during the season)... and not just one session- try marathon meets of 9-12 sessions when you're assigned to one event and one level for the entire 3-day weekend!

So how do you see the age demographics in coaches changing over the next 10-15 years?

gymkat, great question, eh? look today. chris and kim [zemeskal] burdette are in their 30's. they are 2 that survived the process and are doing a fantastic job at the elite level AND they are raising 2 children to boot. who else is there in this age group?

i'll be back to answer this later.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

You'll get no argument from me that it was interscholastic. All I know is there were quite a number of schools that had programs, we had dual and tri school meets, we had championships from across NYC, and we had varsity and JV. We had a dedicated gymnastics room in the basement with equipment. Some of us were beginners , and some kids had experience. I actually think gymnastics started dying out in NYC schools in the 80's and 90's not getting more. I looked it up and I think only nine schools have it now.

Olga Korbut and Cathy Rigsby helped to attract a lot of us to the sport.

It didn't matter to me whether it was a recognized sport or interscholastic. It was a lot of fun and I loved competing for the school.

Yep... everyone wanted to be Olga Korbut at that time!! I know here in VA, the VHSL Championshp and the Regional meets leading up to that, are still a "big deal" whether it's nationally recognized or not. I just hope the budget slicers don't take that away in our county!

 

[gymkat]

gymkat, great question, eh? look today. chris and kim [zemeskal] burdette are in their 30's. they are 2 that survived the process and are doing a fantastic job at the elite level AND they are raising 2 children to boot. who else is there in this age group?

i'll be back to answer this later.

Cecile Canqueteau-Landi and Laurent Landi, but they're the only other (US) elite coaches in their 30s that I can think of. I don't think Marvin is too far off, either. I suppose the answer is that the younger assistant coaches who are currently coaching under HCs at major gyms will step up once the current HCs retire or cut back on their hours.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well, i was going to continue today. it'll have to be later. the double back thread was disappointing. i must now go calm down.