Parents Judging harder in some states or regions?

[twinmomma]

The real question is why is not competing thought of as punishment????

Its not a reward or punishment. Its just not competing until ready.

Many gyms don't do level 2 or 3 as it is not required and start at level 4. Are they being "punished"? Of course not, they are just not competing.

And of course skills build, much like math facts.

But you don't stay in 5th grade for multiple years because you can't get 95 for better from the start of the 6th grade school year.

You compete for a season. Should a baseball team stop their season because they win the first few games? A) Competition is fun. B) Competition is MORE than about winning or awards. It teaches the kids you prepare for something and you go out and achieve it. It also can teach them about failure - competing and falling for example, taught my daughter she could get up and finish other events and still be successful. You don't get that in practice.

Life hands us many high pressure events in which we have to draw upon our skills and do something. Competitions teach kids how to deal with those types of life events. They also teach them how to achieve in different environments. For example, competitions taught my daughter that she can do her thing somewhere other than just her gym. It provides travel opportunities, opportunities to meet other kids from other walks of life and other areas.

Not competing as punishment is not about not winning or awards. There are SO MANY other things that go along with competitions, and if you fail to see that then you're missing a huge part of why the kids compete.

 

[l.c.o]

The real question is why is not competing thought of as punishment????

Its not a reward or punishment. Its just not competing until ready.

Many gyms don't do level 2 or 3 as it is not required and start at level 4. Are they being "punished"? Of course not, they are just not competing.

And of course skills build, much like math facts.

But you don't stay in 5th grade for multiple years because you can't get 95 for better from the start of the 6th grade school year.

My DD DID take a spring/fall season off to get ready, technically.

She ended up with about 13 months without competing... Do you have any idea how spooked she was before that first meet back? She was a wreck. I don't think that I think that long breaks in competing should necessarily be a goal.

You'd think the long break to "uptrain" would have been beneficial, but not so much. Many of the girls seemed to actually slow progress.

To add to that, these parents, kids, and coaches have invested time into a competition team. They've already invested in leotards, warmups, meet bags... I don't find competing the right level, regardless if it's a repeat or not, to be a bad idea. Season is only, what, 3 months, on average? I find it unlikely that a kid is going to miraculously become competition ready in that window.

I mean, if it's one event and the kid is close, of course let the kid move up and scratch. But multiple events?

I guess over the seasons my kids have been competing, I've begun to see practice and competition as almost two separate things. Levels and awards are arbitrary until level 10.

Not all gyms have the same move-up criteria. All the kids can do is their best, and they should only compare themselves to themselves. Levels don't matter.

 

[QueenBee]

This 'sandbagging' seems to be a compulsory level issue (if this is an issue at all in a large way). And I would respectfully suggest that parents stop worrying about whether a different gym is "holding" gymnasts back. Getting a medal or a banner is nice but spending any meaningful amount of time wondering if a gym is sandbagging to win a meet (or meets) seems to forget the larger point.

Every single one of our gymnasts is going to lose to better gymnasts. They may be better because they are exceptional, they may be better because they have better coaching, or train longer hours, or have a better competition day. Or even because they are repeating a level. Are any of those thing that any of us can control for out children? Nope. Teaching children how to deal gracefully with defeat is just as important (more so in my opinion) as teaching them how to be gracious winners.

And just logically, at some point the sandbagging (if happening) would start backfiring. Those gyms wouldn't be able to keep moving enough girls up the levels to have competitive optionals teams. We have gyms who concentrate on their compulsory teams more than their optionals. Those gyms win an awful lots of compulsory team awards. But they basically disappear at optionals because their gym philosophy doesn't lead to a strong optional team.

Find the gym whose philosophy matches yours. Accept there will be positives and negatives at every gym. And stop worrying about who takes home the darn banners/awards. If you are happy with your child's progress, it shouldn't matter if they podium or not, it shouldn't matter if some other gymnast beats them every meet. Their progress is their own. And if you (or your child) is in gymnastics for the medals, its going to be a very disappointing/frustrating adventure.

At our Level 7 state meet last year, there were 10 girls in 1 age group who scored above a 38. None of them were repeating, all were just exceptional. Did it stink for the girl who took home 10th AA to know that a 38 didn't place her near the podium? I am sure she was probably disappointed. Does that take away from the fact she is an exceptional gymnast? Not at all. Was it not fair? Are you kidding me...they were all amazing! But being amazing doesn't mean you are going to win. Ask every single senior elite who didn't make last year's Olympic team.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

This 'sandbagging' seems to be a compulsory level issue (if this is an issue at all in a large way). And I would respectfully suggest that parents stop worrying about whether a different gym is "holding" gymnasts back. Getting a medal or a banner is nice but spending any meaningful amount of time wondering if a gym is sandbagging to win a meet (or meets) seems to forget the larger point.

Every single one of our gymnasts is going to lose to better gymnasts. They may be better because they are exceptional, they may be better because they have better coaching, or train longer hours, or have a better competition day. Or even because they are repeating a level. Are any of those thing that any of us can control for out children? Nope. Teaching children how to deal gracefully with defeat is just as important (more so in my opinion) as teaching them how to be gracious winners.

And just logically, at some point the sandbagging (if happening) would start backfiring. Those gyms wouldn't be able to keep moving enough girls up the levels to have competitive optionals teams. We have gyms who concentrate on their compulsory teams more than their optionals. Those gyms win an awful lots of compulsory team awards. But they basically disappear at optionals because their gym philosophy doesn't lead to a strong optional team.

Find the gym whose philosophy matches yours. Accept there will be positives and negatives at every gym. And stop worrying about who takes home the darn banners/awards. If you are happy with your child's progress, it shouldn't matter if they podium or not, it shouldn't matter if some other gymnast beats them every meet. Their progress is their own. And if you (or your child) is in gymnastics for the medals, its going to be a very disappointing/frustrating adventure.

At our Level 7 state meet last year, there were 10 girls in 1 age group who scored above a 38. None of them were repeating, all were just exceptional. Did it stink for the girl who took home 10th AA to know that a 38 didn't place her near the podium? I am sure she was probably disappointed. Does that take away from the fact she is an exceptional gymnast? Not at all. Was it not fair? Are you kidding me...they were all amazing! But being amazing doesn't mean you are going to win. Ask every single senior elite who didn't make last year's Olympic team.

True story

 

[gymnastmom05]

This 'sandbagging' seems to be a compulsory level issue (if this is an issue at all in a large way). And I would respectfully suggest that parents stop worrying about whether a different gym is "holding" gymnasts back. Getting a medal or a banner is nice but spending any meaningful amount of time wondering if a gym is sandbagging to win a meet (or meets) seems to forget the larger point.

Every single one of our gymnasts is going to lose to better gymnasts. They may be better because they are exceptional, they may be better because they have better coaching, or train longer hours, or have a better competition day. Or even because they are repeating a level. Are any of those thing that any of us can control for out children? Nope. Teaching children how to deal gracefully with defeat is just as important (more so in my opinion) as teaching them how to be gracious winners.

And just logically, at some point the sandbagging (if happening) would start backfiring. Those gyms wouldn't be able to keep moving enough girls up the levels to have competitive optionals teams. We have gyms who concentrate on their compulsory teams more than their optionals. Those gyms win an awful lots of compulsory team awards. But they basically disappear at optionals because their gym philosophy doesn't lead to a strong optional team.

Find the gym whose philosophy matches yours. Accept there will be positives and negatives at every gym. And stop worrying about who takes home the darn banners/awards. If you are happy with your child's progress, it shouldn't matter if they podium or not, it shouldn't matter if some other gymnast beats them every meet. Their progress is their own. And if you (or your child) is in gymnastics for the medals, its going to be a very disappointing/frustrating adventure.

At our Level 7 state meet last year, there were 10 girls in 1 age group who scored above a 38. None of them were repeating, all were just exceptional. Did it stink for the girl who took home 10th AA to know that a 38 didn't place her near the podium? I am sure she was probably disappointed. Does that take away from the fact she is an exceptional gymnast? Not at all. Was it not fair? Are you kidding me...they were all amazing! But being amazing doesn't mean you are going to win. Ask every single senior elite who didn't make last year's Olympic team.

Agreed though in real life these kids are usually young and understanding they're awesome gymnasts when they do a fantastic routine but get zero recognition for it is really difficult for them to understand. It comes with a lot of learning and maturing (and explaining to them as a parents and celebrating outside the meet for the things they did well). My DD is on the younger side (not incredibly young but stiff competition). It was a blow to her when she walked into awards all happy with her performance only to not place in some events and had other teammates score over .5 less than her get rewarded. It was all about the age groups. You just saw her happiness and confidence melt away. That's when I have to play cheerleader! We are now into optionals and I don't feel that we've noticed things like we did in compulsories. There were meets when the girls would walk in a realize certain teams were also competing and their excitement was instantly gone. They knew the team almost 3 times their size would sweep the awards. One- because they're larger and therefore have more girls to contribute to the team score and two, because there were always a few girls that were capable of competing at a higher level. But these are the cards we are handed and you just have to make the best of it.

 

[amiandjim]

This 'sandbagging' seems to be a compulsory level issue (if this is an issue at all in a large way). And I would respectfully suggest that parents stop worrying about whether a different gym is "holding" gymnasts back. Getting a medal or a banner is nice but spending any meaningful amount of time wondering if a gym is sandbagging to win a meet (or meets) seems to forget the larger point.

Every single one of our gymnasts is going to lose to better gymnasts. They may be better because they are exceptional, they may be better because they have better coaching, or train longer hours, or have a better competition day. Or even because they are repeating a level. Are any of those thing that any of us can control for out children? Nope. Teaching children how to deal gracefully with defeat is just as important (more so in my opinion) as teaching them how to be gracious winners.

And just logically, at some point the sandbagging (if happening) would start backfiring. Those gyms wouldn't be able to keep moving enough girls up the levels to have competitive optionals teams. We have gyms who concentrate on their compulsory teams more than their optionals. Those gyms win an awful lots of compulsory team awards. But they basically disappear at optionals because their gym philosophy doesn't lead to a strong optional team.

Find the gym whose philosophy matches yours. Accept there will be positives and negatives at every gym. And stop worrying about who takes home the darn banners/awards. If you are happy with your child's progress, it shouldn't matter if they podium or not, it shouldn't matter if some other gymnast beats them every meet. Their progress is their own. And if you (or your child) is in gymnastics for the medals, its going to be a very disappointing/frustrating adventure.

At our Level 7 state meet last year, there were 10 girls in 1 age group who scored above a 38. None of them were repeating, all were just exceptional. Did it stink for the girl who took home 10th AA to know that a 38 didn't place her near the podium? I am sure she was probably disappointed. Does that take away from the fact she is an exceptional gymnast? Not at all. Was it not fair? Are you kidding me...they were all amazing! But being amazing doesn't mean you are going to win. Ask every single senior elite who didn't make last year's Olympic team.

I completely agree with and I definitely don't spend time worrying about gyms that "sandbag." I just find it interesting more than anything else.... and I often wonder how those other parents feel about it. I constantly tell my DD the only thing she can control is her attitude, work ethic, and trying her hardest. When she set goals for the last meet, I actually had her change them to things she can control. She initially said she wanted a 9+ on all events and at least one first place (goals she actually met btw), but I encouraged her to set goals like "stick my bar dismount," etc....I tried to stress to her she cannot control the judges, the other gymnasts, or the other gyms policies but she can control her own performance. She is trying hard to understand but 7-8 year olds often have a difficult time understanding these concepts.

 

[QueenBee]

...She is trying hard to understand but 7-8 year olds often have a difficult time understanding these concepts.

One of the things I think can be best about gymnastics is that it really helps 7-8 year olds understand these concepts more quickly than those who aren't exposed to direct competition. Kids learn this even more quickly when their parents think this is a important life lesson to be learned and don't try to 'protect' their child from it.

I'm often reminded of P.J. O'Rourke saying -

That's because I have a 13-year-old daughter And that's all I hear, "That's not fair," she says. "That's not fair! That's not fair!" And one day I snapped, and I said, "Honey, you're cute, that's not fair. Your family is pretty well off, that's not fair. You were born in America, that's not fair. Darling, you had better get down on your knees and pray that things don't start getting fair for you."

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I am so stealing, P.J. O'Rourke's quote

 

[twinmomma]

One of the things I think can be best about gymnastics is that it really helps 7-8 year olds understand these concepts more quickly than those who aren't exposed to direct competition. Kids learn this even more quickly when their parents think this is a important life lesson to be learned and don't try to 'protect' their child from it.

I'm often reminded of P.J. O'Rourke saying -

One more non medal/winning benefit of competition.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

One more non medal/winning benefit of competition.

Oh I am so not the every one needs to get a medal type. In fact I think there are too many age groups and they go out far too many places.

Really if you can do a level, you can do it, age shouldn't matter.

 

[gymnastmom05]

Oh I am so not the every one needs to get a medal type. In fact I think there are too many age groups and they go out far too many places.

Really if you can do a level, you can do it, age shouldn't matter.

I agree with this - minus the 6/7 and even some 8 yr olds. When they're competing against 10 yr olds, it's obvious the body awareness difference and I think a lot of girls/parents would give up thinking they were absolutely dreadful. Once you get to age 9+, it seems the younger girls all the suddenly become the show stoppers. We've even been to meets where they went out every place for every event for every age group. Like my daughter said, you really want to stand up there when it's just announced that you got last place?!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I agree with this - minus the 6/7 and even some 8 yr olds. When they're competing against 10 yr olds, it's obvious the body awareness difference and I think a lot of girls/parents would give up thinking they were absolutely dreadful. Once you get to age 9+, it seems the younger girls all the suddenly become the show stoppers. We've even been to meets where they went out every place for every event for every age group. Like my daughter said, you really want to stand up there when it's just announced that you got last place?!

We were at a meet this weekend. They divided strictly by age. The youngest of our girls was the only one in her age group. Got first in all events and a trophy. Even she thought it was goofy.

 

[gymbeam]

The real question is why is not competing thought of as punishment????

Its not a reward or punishment. Its just not competing until ready.

Many gyms don't do level 2 or 3 as it is not required and start at level 4. Are they being "punished"? Of course not, they are just not competing.

And of course skills build, much like math facts.

But you don't stay in 5th grade for multiple years because you can't get 95 for better from the start of the 6th grade school year.

WTF? Its competitive gymnastics. They compete. And for the amount of time they practice they don't compete much at all each year. They compete a few regular meets to lead up to state, regional or what have you. Are you suggesting if someone's too good by mid-season, they should step aside and give up their season's culminating championships? How meaningful then would those championships be if all the winners knew they were winning because all the better girls just weren't allowed to be there?

For someone who claims to not be a "medal for everyone " person this thought process absolutely confuses me.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

WTF? Its competitive gymnastics. They compete. And for the amount of time they practice they don't compete much at all each year. They compete a few regular meets to lead up to state, regional or what have you. Are you suggesting if someone's too good by mid-season, they should step aside and give up their season's culminating championships? How meaningful then would those championships be if all the winners knew they were winning because all the better girls just weren't allowed to be there?

For someone who claims to not be a "medal for everyone " person this thought process absolutely confuses me.

No I am suggesting that if you are starting the season at over 38, if most of team is starting at over 38 then they are likely to be in reality ready to move on but are being held for scores.

There should be a way to discourage holding kids back just to win, for the sole purpose of a W.

I like the earlier suggestion of if you are repeating, your score doesn't count for team. Or like IGC have a different award category.................

I never said don't compete. Asked why would it be looked at as punishment.

But WTF, if a kid is starting the season at 38.5, you are going to tell me she is not being held back??? I call BS, maybe not in all cases but in an awful lot of them.

Also as a parent, I want my kid to earn her medal, I don't want her to get one for just showing up. And I don't want her to get one because she is kept at a lower level to be a lock on the podium, so I can have bragging rights. That is not competing. So actually it makes perfect sense as someone who is not a medal for everyone person. Really how much of a victory is it to come in first when your skills are way ahead of the folks you are competing against. That's not competing, that's pretty much stealing it.

 

[gymbeam]

No I am suggesting that if you are starting the season at over 38, if most of team is starting at over 38 then they are likely to be in reality ready to move on but are being held for scores.

There should be a way to discourage holding kids back just to win, for the sole purpose of a W.

I like the earlier suggestion of if you are repeating, your score doesn't count for team. Or like IGC have a different award category.................

I never said don't compete. Asked why would it be looked at as punishment.

But WTF, if a kid is starting the season at 38.5, you are going to tell me she is not being held back??? I call BS, maybe not in all cases but in an awful lot of them.

Also as a parent, I want my kid to earn her medal, I don't want her to get one for just showing up. And I don't want her to get one because she is kept at a lower level to be a lock on the podium, so I can have bragging rights. That is not competing. So actually it makes perfect sense as someone who is not a medal for everyone person. Really how much of a victory is it to come in first when your skills are way ahead of the folks you are competing against. That's not competing, that's pretty much stealing it.

Yep- I'm gonna tell you for sure that we have a really big optionals team and we have about 5 girls who are consistently over 38 and sometimes over 38.5 and are not held back. They are perfectly timed. (For the record, mine is NOT one of those, but DOES always have to compete against 2 or 3 of them. She is ALWAYS in the same age group of at least one of them in particular because their birthdays are so close.) It sucks for my daughter but never once has it ever crossed my mind that those girls were misplaced. Being on a huge, very successful team means my daughter's toughest competition is at EVERY meet. She scored about 37 all season last year and never placed higher than 5th AA.

 

[gymbeam]

*above 37, not about.

 

[gymbeam]

I don't know, I'm just really confused why mastery at one level would mean they must have the next level skills. Does not compute.

 

[CCGymbug]

I think 2nd years should compete 2nd years....period. They have had the benefit of knowing routines and working them in front of judges for an entire season so why should they have the benefit over the newbie?! To me it would be the fairest way. But life isn't fair...

 

[meganliz77]

I think 2nd years should compete 2nd years....period. They have had the benefit of knowing routines and working them in front of judges for an entire season so why should they have the benefit over the newbie?! To me it would be the fairest way. But life isn't fair...

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this. Not sure what level your child is, but once kiddos get out of compulsories there really is no benefit of "knowing routines and working them in front of judges" -- since everyone has individual routines.

And in particular, for our gym and my DD, your idea would be quite problematic. My DD has consistently been moved up mid season. So she competed Level 3 (4 meets I think) her first year. She had been in gym for a total of 8 months in her whole life at that point, and never competed a ROBHS until her final meet. Her second season - she competed 1/2 season of Level 3 (to states) then was moved to Level 4 mid season. Talk about stressful... but she did well. Next season, started off Level 4, went to states and did well, and then over Christmas break scored out of level 5 and was moved to level 6 (last winter)- so 4 meets maybe and State? This year she competed 1 meet at a level 6 quite successfully and was moved to level 7 - she didn't have quite all of her skills yet due to a paralyzing fear of BWO on beam - she just recently overcame it. This has been pretty standard way of progressing kiddos at our gym. Mid season move ups. Some kids will repeat for a couple of years. The focus is not on sandbagging, but perfecting technique. Hey, I myself do the whole "well she JUST learned her level 7 routine in 2 weeks... these girls have been training these routines all summer..." But truth is, I don't know. I don't know what they have dealt with in the off-season, injuries, etc. I don't understand their fears or their end goal. And let's face it -- there are some extremely talented kiddos out there and maybe my kiddo is just not as good *gasp*. I think this sandbagging idea is like beating a dead horse - sure some gyms do it, I don't think most do. And let me tell you, the 8-10 year olds competing with my DD now at comps - their scores are INSANELY higher than the older age groups as well. And I would be willing to bet that none or few of them are repeaters.

 

[gymbeam]

@meganliz77 , i think you summed it up. some gyms sandbag, but most don't.

determining who does sandbag takes more consideration than just looking at early season scores.