Parents Repeating a level after getting a score of 38?????

[Deleted member 18037]

If not being on the podium causes you to quit then its your time no matter the level.

 

[profmom]

But doing this, pushing a kid to that level, can end their career. Many really good gymnasts stay at level 8 forever. We have 2 that made their level 8 qualifying score, went to regionals, and are repeating level 8 because of bars/beam fears.

Yes, exactly. And the coaches will know which kids will crack under the pressure of moving up without having the minimum skill set, and which ones might thrive and even make more progress if they're competing a little short on one event. That is why the coaches and the gymnast should be making these decisions -- not the parents, and certainly not interested bystanders who don't have any idea what's going on in that individual set of circumstances.

 

[l.c.o]

I think I mostly agree with @Deleted member 18037 above. My DD wants to WIN. When she had a relatively "off" meet this season and two teammates out scored her (one mocked her trophy), she was unbelievably motivated to do better at the next meet. And she did.

My DD's first season of old L4 was a bit rough. She placed AA at maybe half of the meets. While it didn't make her want to quit, it did make her work harder because she wanted to WIN. Give me all of the trophies!

I think one day it's likely that she's not going to medal so much anymore. It'll be up to her then whether it's worth continuing to work hard despite this, or leave the sport. I think at some point, working hard isn't necessarily the most important variable in determining level/podium placements. Growth spurts, injuries, overall potential/talent, fears, etc all need to be overcome. While working hard is necessary, at some point it may not be enough to push her through to either a) the next level and/or b) the podium again.

Does she have fun at practice? Absolutely. Does she love her teammates? Yep. Know what else she likes? Winning trophies - and she's not even a little ashamed to admit it.

Will that maybe make her quit someday? Possibly. But I don't think liking trophies makes her less of a gymnast than those who happily train despite not winning them (which, had my DD taken a faster path, she'd likely be in the same camp as).

 

[skschlag]

If not being on the podium causes you to quit then its your time no matter the level.

That is not what I meant. THe pressure of having to do skills that you are not ready for or to work out on things you are not ready for can increase fear. THat is what will cause you to quit...not the podium.

 

[raenndrops]

That is not what I meant. THe pressure of having to do skills that you are not ready for or to work out on things you are not ready for can increase fear. THat is what will cause you to quit...not the podium.

But it would be possible for the L8 with L10 skills in 3 events to move up without that pressure. She could compete L9 with her L8 beam routine and just take the hit to the start value (SV = 8.7-9.2 with a L8 routine without connection bonuses) or (if the fears are REALLY BAD) she could become an event specialist in the other 3 events. Then the pressure is off completely! She just wouldn't place in the AA as an event specialist (or might place lower in L9 because of the lower SV on beam).

 

[profmom]

That strategy might work great for some kids, Raenn, but not others, for whom it might lead to the door out of the gym. As Skschlag has said, it may not have anything at all to do with the podium and everything to do with the kind of pressure a high performing athlete is putting on herself if she's genuinely stymied on something. If you're competing at a level, whatever you and your coaches may tell you, the expectation is that you're competing up to level, and that expectation may make things a lot worse for some kids.

And some gyms might not want to set a precedent of allowing move ups without having certain minimum skills. As we've all seen before, some parents get very, very invested in levels, and it's going to be a lot easier for a gym to hold the line on inappropriate pressure to advance a girl if the decision-makers can say, "look, no BHS-BHS, no L9; we just don't do it."

 

[Deleted member 18037]

That is not what I meant. THe pressure of having to do skills that you are not ready for or to work out on things you are not ready for can increase fear. THat is what will cause you to quit...not the podium.

If you are in optionals, you can do lesser skills and score lower at a higher level.

I am finding hard to imagine (because I am not there yet with my kid) that you have all your L10 skills except 1 skill and competing L9 is not an option. The only option is to get 38s in L8.

Sorry don't buy it.

We currently only have L9 in our gym, it is her second (maybe even 3rd year at 9). She just hasn't scored out to qualify for 10. She is not staying back to score 38s in L9. She has had a couple of injuries. Sometimes she scratches an event. But she is not doing L8 to sit on top of the podium.

 

[gymjunkie]

Sometimes a gym will hold a child like that back because not doing so opens the door for other parents to want their kids to move up a level when they are missing a skill.

 

[skschlag]

I don't think everyone stays back to be on the top of the podium. as the parent of an optional, I can see keeping a kiddo at a level where they can be successful rather than push them to do skills they are not ready to do, or take away an event because they don't have a skill. At the optional levels, it is 90% mental, and if that gets in the wrong place, then the kiddo is done.

 

[BachFlyer]

It's not like stealing candy from a baby. It's like trying to keep a girl in the sport who was screamed at by former coach to the point of fear, and hoping that she will overcome the block and eventually move to where she needs to be.

If you push her to 10, as an event specialist, she very easily would quit because of the pressure. And they take a step BACKWARD on beam, because she's not competing it.

 

[Natasha]

Level 9/10 really is a WHOLE different ball game, and unless you are there, it really is hard to understand or even explain to someone else. And for most kids who are at that skill level, it really isn't about the medals and placements, it is about doing the skills and competing against yourself more than competing against anyone else. Most girls simply don't get that far who are in it for the medals. And yes, it is a HUGE mental game at that level. And yes, let me tell you there are things that make no sense. Like a girl with 2 D skill release moves on bars (L10) but a mental block on a double back release, so has a level 8 release of a single fly away.

 

[BachFlyer]

^^yes gymtiger, you said what I was thinking but oh so much better.

 

[Empowered]

And yes, let me tell you there are things that make no sense. Like a girl with 2 D skill release moves on bars (L10) but a mental block on a double back release, so has a level 8 release of a single fly away.

I've seen this one. Elite caliber routine without a dismount. I've also seen full level 10 on all events and NO series on beam (plenty of single acro but couldn't even do bhs-bhs or even bwo-bhs). These instances are rare, but they do exist. Coaches do what's best.

That said I've also seen an athlete score number 2 in the state at a compulsory level and repeat the next year due to an odd competition season in state. She was ready for the next level, but would've gone 14 months without competing had she not repeated. It was more a "keep her comp ready" than sandbagging, but I am sure some questioned it.

My advice, as always, is to worry only about your own kid. Fair or not, what other gyms choose to do isn't anyone's business. Who is it on hear whose quote says gymnastics will never be "fair"? Wise sentiment.

 

[Mish]

I respectfully disagree. There is that wonderful thing called a kip that has given level 3s with 38 scores fits. And flyaways, Giants, and bhs on beam can provide enough fear to limit any gymnast.

Ok, I get it for the upper levels, but I think it would be a little ridiculous to have a lv 3 gymnast who scored 38s repeat level 3 again for lack of the kip. Have her move up and scratch until she got the kip. Last year my then 7 yo daughter scored 37s and 38s in lv 3, won almost every meet, AA at States, etc. If she had to repeat the level it would be ridiculous. I ( and she) would be embarrassed to repeat. I guess that's just my opinion. I just asked her what she would want to do in that situation, she didn't miss a beat and said, "switch gyms." Again, I get it for upper levels.

 

[MILgymFAM]

What I've always wondered (for the little bit of time in my life I've been thinking about gymnastixs) is why not just train without competing if you're stuck between levels. You did a level and dominated but you're missing something to move up- why isn't simply taking a season- if needed- to work on skills without competing ever put on the table as an option? Honestly, competing is expensive and wouldn't want to spend the money again on a level already competed successfully.

 

[duyetanh]

Ok, I get it for the upper levels, but I think it would be a little ridiculous to have a lv 3 gymnast who scored 38s repeat level 3 again for lack of the kip. Have her move up and scratch until she got the kip. Last year my then 7 yo daughter scored 37s and 38s in lv 3, won almost every meet, AA at States, etc. If she had to repeat the level it would be ridiculous. I ( and she) would be embarrassed to repeat. I guess that's just my opinion. I just asked her what she would want to do in that situation, she didn't miss a beat and said, "switch gyms." Again, I get it for upper levels.

I guess it is different for everyone, but no kip means no level 4 bars basically. And it is such the gateway trick that it makes sense to me....my child has never scored that high btw......the difference between level 3 and level 4 really seems huge, at least at my dds gym.There are girls who soared at level 3 without really doing serious conditionning. Some of them have had to start the season repeating. If they master the things they are struggling with, they will move if coaches and parents feel the child in question is ready.
Around here, level 3 is the biggest level around, because of the jump to 4. Might be different elsewhere though.

 

[mommyof1]

What I've always wondered (for the little bit of time in my life I've been thinking about gymnastixs) is why not just train without competing if you're stuck between levels. You did a level and dominated but you're missing something to move up- why isn't simply taking a season- if needed- to work on skills without competing ever put on the table as an option? Honestly, competing is expensive and wouldn't want to spend the money again on a level already competed successfully.

I wonder this too, especially with older kids and those who are only behind on one event. If my child is not totally ready to compete L4 next year but has most of her skills, I would much rather see her train L4 and not compete than repeat L3. More hours in the gym, and no time wasted training L3 routines. But that is not how her gym does things.

 

[gymdog]

Level 9/10 really is a WHOLE different ball game, and unless you are there, it really is hard to understand or even explain to someone else. And for most kids who are at that skill level, it really isn't about the medals and placements, it is about doing the skills and competing against yourself more than competing against anyone else. Most girls simply don't get that far who are in it for the medals. And yes, it is a HUGE mental game at that level. And yes, let me tell you there are things that make no sense. Like a girl with 2 D skill release moves on bars (L10) but a mental block on a double back release, so has a level 8 release of a single fly away.

It is more complex, but still competing level 8 for four years with level 10 skills on three events and a fear of beam series is not "normal" per se. That would describe many level 9s and 10s, minus the 4 years part. Personally I can't really see what's gained in this scenario in general by remaining at level 8 indefinitely, but for this particular individual it could be best. It sounds like there is more going on with her past than just this one skill issue. But then that's a rare scenario. In general it would make me raise my eyebrows. There are other options and again nothing is really gained by staying in level 8 unless you're under 12 if you have level 10 skills on multiple events. Or if you have problems that are an exception which sounds like might be the case here.

That said I don't think sandbagging to win is really an issue at levels 8-10. Repeating at those levels is expected and usually more complex, although that being said I would say it is far more common in the scenario we're discussing (just one skill missing but overall strength there) to move up and scratch or do IES, IF they're in high school. but I think the initial discussion here about holding back kids who have mastered the requirements and could do the next level but would score respectably 34-35 but not win, is more applicable to compulsory levels and Xcel. Because that's where I see it. But there's literally nothing anyone can do because the various strategies to prevent it can all be worked around (for example - not counting scores of second years - people just hold kids back from competing that level until they'll score the 38s the first year). So just find the right fit of coach/gym and go with that.

But to clarify the discussion I think most of us aren't arguing with the idea that is possible to need another year at a level despite high scores. There are always exceptions and that is part of why USAG will NEVER restrict repeating levels in any way. But the question is whether it's LIKELY that someone scoring 38s will need to repeat and I definitely fall on the side of "no". I guarantee there are kids who gyms repeat pretty much solely to win that could do the next level. But again, can't do anything about it so don't worry or anything, but it does happen.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

OP here...I do agree that extenuating circumstances (fears, lack of skills, etc) can be reasonable factors to repeat a level even with reasonably high scores. Especially in the higher levels. But in the case I saw, it was lower levels, and also Xcel levels with a lot of options (to sub out an easier skill if you don't have a certain skill, etc.) And it wasn't one individual girl who was having trouble. It was about half their team (6-7) girls. They also weren't a team that was known for having girls repeat levels regularly (like the gyms that were mentioned that make everyone do two years at a level.) I think if it had been one well scoring girl that was held back due to her individual circumstances that no one would have batted an eye. But when it was 6-7 girls that makes people take notice and I think that's where all of the gossip I was hearing was coming from. I see a lot of views on both sides of this, but regardless of where people stand on the issue, from the looks of it, these girls will be the talk/debate of the town all season b/c of choices that they had no control over. I think that holding one girl scoring high 37's or 38's is one thing but holding 6-7 girls back is going to draw a lot of negative attention. Or on the other hand, it could end up being positive attention/advertisement for the gym when they are able to sweep at states this year, lol.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

But to clarify the discussion I think most of us aren't arguing with the idea that is possible to need another year at a level despite high scores. There are always exceptions and that is part of why USAG will NEVER restrict repeating levels in any way. But the question is whether it's LIKELY that someone scoring 38s will need to repeat and I definitely fall on the side of "no". I guarantee there are kids who gyms repeat pretty much solely to win that could do the next level. But again, can't do anything about it so don't worry or anything, but it does happen.

Exactly there are many legitimate reasons to hold a kid back. And there are gyms who do it just to win.