Repeating Levels - Best for Gymnast or Selfish Gym

[gymdog]

10 years old and she is repeating level 6 with those skills and scores? Personally I find that incomprehensible, but we don't have the fall and spring season thing, so I get confused with that. I think it is not right to have kids compete for their scores at states when they are clearly not that level - not in the spirit of competition. But other gyms do it and it's really not my problem. Luckily this is less of an issue once you get out of level 4 and 5.

I mean when they have the fall and spring season, if she didn't do fall level 6 she just wouldn't be competing, right? So I guess it isn't really repeating, it's just like going to extra meets at level 6 before level 7. I still think it's dumb, and maybe I am still getting it wrong. Extra time and expense when she has already mastered the previous level. So this would concern and irritate me. Maybe she can do one meet and states. I wouldn't be inclined to pay for the full schedule of meets, and then to do it again in the spring. That's just me. I wouldn't mind paying for one meet and states if they were all worked up about it. If they insisted on every fall and spring meet, I'd probably start thinking about moving on. She has mastered the previous level.

 

[bookworm]

You're daughter is a part of a team. If the coach says that they need her scores in the fall season at L6 States...then that is what they need. She will still compete L7 in the spring right?

I would not waste my time and money training a gymnast whose parents are not interested in our team...they can train as an individual anywhere.

I find this response appalling given what the OP said about her daughter in her original post..she has mastered the level as PART OF A TEAM and it is time for her coach to recognize that....

 

[edamame]

Thanks to ALL for the wonderful responses. I appreciate reading your opinions.

To clarify a couple things:

1. At our gym in order to move up to the next level you must pass all the level requirements plus 90% of the additional skills such as the switch leap on beam, beam series, 1/1 on tramp, tsuk timers, etc for L7. The switch leap on beam is not in the L7 routines.

2. We compete Fall Compulsory and Spring Optionals. So my daughter will not lose a year in repeating L6 but I see her utilizing so much gym time on the L6 routines instead of perfecting the L7. 10% L7 and 90% L7. She complains about this.

3. She does up train - flipping tsuks and yurchenkos, series, arials and tucks on beam, twisting on floor and the toe shoots and pirouettes on bars. But my concern is that this up-training is such a small part of gym time while so much time is spent on L6 routines.

4. My daughter does get bored doing L6 over and over. She thrives on setting goals and loves learning new skills. As do all kids.

5. We do have a current L7 team who are training for 8 although some will have to repeat 7. Same coaches as my daughter. Although they are older and practice at different times.

@JBS - I completely agree that she is part of a team and should support and participate as such, but I also think it is selfish to ask us to spend the time and expense to train and attend meets unless it truly benefits her. Which was my main question, is this "plan" (competing L6 again and spending so much time on the routines in practice) in the best interest of my daughter?

@gymgal - I am hoping that the intent is to keep her competition focused and achieving perfection in the basics. That this will be best for her in the long run.

On a side note one of her coaches mentioned to me that she'd love to get my daughter in the gym more, but that there is some push back from the owner as they don't want girls from different groups to train together, even if it's the same coaches. I don't understand this. I have just come to realize that there is a lot of politics in the gym that just has to be accepted. Although I can grumble...

Thanks again to all!

 

[momnipotent]

Now think of what you are saying and look where we as coaches get trapped.

You are saying that you are OK if your team is not as good as the other team...haha. Who cares if a club wins L6...not me. Oh but wait...ever hear of low level gymnasts switching clubs because the other club is better? Some clubs have a philosophy of winning (or doing quite well) at the compulsory levels in order to stay more financially stable and not lose gymnasts. Being part of a successful business will benefit the team program in the long run.

Let's put this in a different perspective. Imagine this was happening at a division I college. The coach was making crazy moves in order to win. Gotta look at things from all angles.

Quite honestly, I would rather be a member of a team that loses honestly than one who wins through practices that I believe are dishonest and I would feel the same way about a college team doing the same-winning is not why I have my children in this sport. With that being said, I understand that many parents are not like that and if my son's coach came to me and explained that they would like him to compete the same level again even after a first place finish at state and him having all the skills needed for the next level due to financial stability concerns, I would consider it (we aren't in the sport for levels either) as long as he would benlearning new things and the group he would be training with was appropriately challenging.

 

[iwannacoach]

Quite honestly, I would rather be a member of a team that loses honestly than one who wins through practices that I believe are dishonest and I would feel the same way about a college team doing the same-winning is not why I have my children in this sport.

I have total respect for that sentiment, and generally am dismayed with the greedy, lets put in a "ringer" attitude. That's my position when done just to win another state title and hang another banner from the rafters to glorify the gym.

But there is a possibility that I do endorse whole heartedly. If this kid really has "it" with the exception of experiencing near perfect performances in the 38.5+ range, and is capable of that, there is a tremendous benifit in repeating L6. Most kids never get to that point, and it's much easier to train a child through to L10 and elite if they knopw they can stick every skill in every practice. It doesn't have to be boring if dd keeps score and takes pride in a single practice with out a fall. It really could be very thrilling to make it through a week where not one muscle twitches outside of the intended sequence.

That may be the message the coaches are trying to send........

 

[JBS]

Now everyone needs to keep in mind that I am not posting my opinion or how we do it at the club that I run...just a scenario...and it seems to be causing quite a ruckus...why...am I wrong? Do you all have issues with this? Many clubs out there that do just what is being posted in this thread. And don't think of it as sandbagging...think of it as requiring a different standard...after all...is it cheating to score a 38.5...NO.

 

[gymgal]

Now everyone needs to keep in mind that I am not posting my opinion or how we do it at the club that I run...just a scenario...and it seems to be causing quite a ruckus...why...am I wrong? Do you all have issues with this? Many clubs out there that do just what is being posted in this thread. And don't think of it as sandbagging...think of it as requiring a different standard...after all...is it cheating to score a 38.5...NO.

arg, just wrote a reply and went to post it, only to find out it kicked me off! this time I will copy the reply, just in case.

bottom line - if I found out my dd was at a gym with this philosophy, we would not be sticking around. It may not be cheating but it is poor sportsmanship to purposely hold girls back just to win meets. It's one thing to have high standards, but when a gymnasts is clearly able to compete at the next level, she should be put at that level (talking in general, not the OP's daughter). We have a few gyms in our area that "sandbag". These girls clearly could compete well 1-2 levels above their current level. Know what happens? after a few years, they are looking for new gyms - why? because they aren't challenged. In the beginning it's great to win all the time - always coming home with the gold for yourself and the team but after a while, when you're only competing with your teammates, the fun goes away and they want more of a challenge. And I am not buring the notion that parents gym hop to the top scoring teams. That may be true at the lower levels but once a parent has been in the sport, they look deeper into what a program will bring for their individual daughter. As long as the gym is competitive at meets, they likely are not going to gym hop. And if they do, then you really don't want that type of parent anyway.

now, let's hope it goes through this time....

 

[momnipotent]

Now everyone needs to keep in mind that I am not posting my opinion or how we do it at the club that I run...just a scenario...and it seems to be causing quite a ruckus...why...am I wrong? Do you all have issues with this? Many clubs out there that do just what is being posted in this thread. And don't think of it as sandbagging...think of it as requiring a different standard...after all...is it cheating to score a 38.5...NO.

Which would be fine if every girl was held back, but the OP states that other girls who did not score as well as her dd did move up-so it's not the gym as a whole requiring a higher standard-maybe no one is getting the whole picture and the gym has all the girls do 2 years of level 6, which is again, fine, but be upfront. I actually am not as passionate about this issue as I think my posts would make it seem, but I am a big believer in honesty and consistency, which it doesn't seem like the OP's gym is giving her.

 

[iwannacoach]

Which would be fine if every girl was held back, but the OP states that other girls who did not score as well as her dd did move up........

It shouldn't have to be based on what is happening with the other girls, one or all. What matters is that the best thing be done for each kid.


Edamame's dd may turn out to be national caliber three years down the road, and her coaches may want to let her bake to a golden perfection at L6. You need to consider the possibility that once she completes L7 she'll be moving quickly to L9 and L10. That environment is no place to build confidence as it is very competitive and the practice sessions very demanding. You could choose to feel flattered that they see potential in her to benifit from a half year of extra basics and transition skills.

For all you know the other kids that are moving up with lower scores have been evaluated by the staff and deemed, however sadly, to lack the potential to go beyond level 8. They may feel that moving them up now may be their best and only chance to ever get to, or past L8, and holding them for extra polishing and basic tuning, in their opinion, serves no purpose.

So if this young gem of a gymnast goes out and hits for a bunch of 9.6 - 9.8 scores and has some meets in the mid 38's range, which is an amazing accomplishment that few of you will ever witness, it just may sink in that attention to detail does pay off. It could be, for some kids, the missing piece in the gymnastics puzzle.

 

[momnipotent]

Interesting perspective and definitely something for the op to think about. Any ideas as to why the coaches wouldn't just present it this way if it is indeed the case? As a parent, I would think "hey, we think your dd has the potential to do very well in gymnastics and would really benefit from a bit more refining at this level" would go over much better than "we need her on the level 6 team."

 

[edamame]

It shouldn't have to be based on what is happening with the other girls, one or all. What matters is that the best thing be done for each kid.


Edamame's dd may turn out to be national caliber three years down the road, and her coaches may want to let her bake to a golden perfection at L6. You need to consider the possibility that once she completes L7 she'll be moving quickly to L9 and L10. That environment is no place to build confidence as it is very competitive and the practice sessions very demanding. You could choose to feel flattered that they see potential in her to benifit from a half year of extra basics and transition skills.

For all you know the other kids that are moving up with lower scores have been evaluated by the staff and deemed, however sadly, to lack the potential to go beyond level 8. They may feel that moving them up now may be their best and only chance to ever get to, or past L8, and holding them for extra polishing and basic tuning, in their opinion, serves no purpose.

So if this young gem of a gymnast goes out and hits for a bunch of 9.6 - 9.8 scores and has some meets in the mid 38's range, which is an amazing accomplishment that few of you will ever witness, it just may sink in that attention to detail does pay off. It could be, for some kids, the missing piece in the gymnastics puzzle.

Interesting comments. While I don't doubt that the coaches know exponentially more about the sport than I do, I only want to ensure that my daughter is happy and that we (parents, coaches and gym) are doing all that we can to help her reach her potential (whether that be L7 or E). Hopefully this is catalyst behind the coaches' decision for her to repeat L6, that the added competition will build her confidence and polish her. That she can "bake" a little longer. This has only become an issue as of late due to the inconstancy within the gym. HC telling her she didn't have to repeat L6 if she passed to L7 (which she did), but then her coaches telling her that they wanted her to repeat L6 as it would benefit her and help her and help the team. There was no question of repeating she was just told she would and we didn't argue it at the time.

 

[wallinbl]

Each level builds on the last. There is a balance between building the foundation and building upward. Too much of either is bad. What your DD is being asked to do isn't even holding back for a year - its a few extra meets. It's a little extra on the foundation without losing a whole year of building upward.

 

[gymgal]

Interesting perspective and definitely something for the op to think about. Any ideas as to why the coaches wouldn't just present it this way if it is indeed the case? As a parent, I would think "hey, we think your dd has the potential to do very well in gymnastics and would really benefit from a bit more refining at this level" would go over much better than "we need her on the level 6 team."

Well, a coach *might* do this if she could trust the parent to keep it to herself. But she would be taking a gift risk that it would get to other parents that one group of girls is destined to only go so far (i had been thinking L8 as well, and the other group was being pushed harder. Now, as a parent, would you want you child in the group that the coaches feel will only go a couple more years - perhaps even ensuring it by not raining them the same as their other gymnasts? Yes, it happens in many gyms but it isnt always publicly known. Perhaps this gym has felt it better to keep it under wraps.

Still, the OP would do best by trying o figure out he true motive....

 

[wandrewsjr]

Love iwannacoach’s responses to this thread, so much morearticulate than I could have been. Fromall you have said, I wouldn’t have any reason not to trust her coaches. The fact that she did so well last seasonwhile at the same time learning all of her 7 skills and some 8/9?! Tells methey really know what they are doing. Byall means have a chat with the coaches to see what their plan is. But then, unless your daughter is telling youshe does not want to go to practice because she is bored, I would sit back and enjoyher success.

 

[Moxiegrl83]

HC telling her she didn't have to repeat L6 if she passed to L7 (which she did), but then her coaches telling her that they wanted her to repeat L6 as it would benefit her and help her and help the team.

I think whatever the coach's reasons for keeping her a L6, they need to be careful what they tell the gymnast. If a coach gives a kid a goal, kid reaches/surpasses said goal, and then the coach doesn't follow through...well....I can see where a parent and kid would get upset. Things always happen, and plans can change, but something like this they need to be careful.

 

[iwannacoach]

I only want to ensure that my daughter is happy and that we (parents, coaches and gym) are doing all that we can to help her reach her potential (whether that be L7 or E). Hopefully this is catalyst behind the coaches' decision for her to repeat L6, that the added competition will build her confidence and polish her. That she can "bake" a little longer.

HC telling her she didn't have to repeat L6 if she passed to L7 (which she did), but then her coaches telling her that they wanted her to repeat L6 as it would benefit her and help her and help the team. There was no question of repeating she was just told she would and we didn't argue it at the time.

Coaches sometimes make decisions that need to be refined and adjusted. Your daughter may have done something between the move to L7 and "lets repeat L6" conversations to convince them that she has that kind of potential. Things change, and at times the changes are so nuanced that they just, can, not, be described.

The majority of competent coaches care deeply about each childs progress. They take professional pride in how they physically train, emotionally counsel, and logistically guide each and every child. Their self esteem and professional reputations rely on them getting it right.

Sometimes getting it right means a timely change in course, and the politics can be tricky. Every team mates parent that sat through a L6 meet has seen your dd excell. They want their dd to be trained to be just as good as her. So the coach can't just come out and say this is the best for your dd with-out having a bunch of parents up in arms over it, and chooses to deflect a malestrom by adding in the team needs your dd. Most of the team mates parents are going to heave a sigh of relief that their dd isn't stuck with the L6 gig.

Why didn't the coach come clean....Just look around you by reading through threads on chalkbucket. It's hard to find a single thread where the coach in question is trusted when it come to any gymnastics decision involving every parent's largest emotional
investment. I don't think we can change that human condition and I wouldn't care to. It's just the way life is, and as coaches we have to either earn your trust and have a program wide support group that trusts and verifies, or tolerate a parent/coach trust obstacle.......Niether are easy, and both take time away from our mission to train healthy, happy children who get to go as far as their own abilities and circumstances can take them.

Just imagine it from my perspective....I've trained lots of difficult skills to kids that would hit them but could not display them in meets the way I hoped, while one kid just make the skill look breathtaking. Some kids won't ever get it to that level, as their natural gifts just didn't include that singular ability. There are a few who do have that ability, but IMO it's darned near impossible to make that gift blossom while training many of the skills allowed in level seven, and it's even harder at L8 - L10......

Just a little something to think about.

And thanks to wandrewsjr for the positive juice that got me up to this post's energy level.

 

[JBS]

You're daughter is a part of a team. If the coach says that they need her scores in the fall season at L6 States...then that is what they need. She will still compete L7 in the spring right?

I would not waste my time and money training a gymnast whose parents are not interested in our team...they can train as an individual anywhere.

I find this response appalling given what the OP said about her daughter in her original post..she has mastered the level as PART OF A TEAM and it is time for her coach to recognize that....

We work very hard as a club to eliminate families that do not have a team attitude. That's our club philosophy...sorry.

 

[JBS]

@JBS - I completely agree that she is part of a team and should support and participate as such, but I also think it is selfish to ask us to spend the time and expense to train and attend meets unless it truly benefits her. Which was my main question, is this "plan" (competing L6 again and spending so much time on the routines in practice) in the best interest of my daughter?

How would I know? I'm just some coach that started an online forum. I don't coach your daughter and I have not seen any of her skills or routines. Ask your coaches.

I have used the path that your daughter is on many times with success...I have used other paths with success also. I have also used every path with complete failure.

By the way...welcome to the site and I am sorry I am going off on my little soapbox in your thread. I just need everyone to understand that this site is just something to help everyone learn more about gymnastics...not a tool to challenge their coaches.

 

[Muddlethru]

We work very hard as a club to eliminate families that do not have a team attitude. That's our club philosophy...sorry.

I agree with bookworm. A "private" club, in my opinion must put the individual gymnast first before the team as a whole. If the "team" is a school team, college team or of a public entity, then JBS philosophy may make sense. But when you are paying about $400 a month and are enrolled in a private club, it is not acceptable to me to put the team first. I am paying for my individual daughter to benefit from the training, not the other way around. In addition, as much as many private and public clubs advocate the team philosophy, gymnastics is more an individual sport than a team sport. Team sports are easily identifiable, soccer, baseball, football, etc. It is very clear to me that while a gymnastics team vie for team recognition and placement, it is only secondary to the individual aspect

 

[bookworm]

We work very hard as a club to eliminate families that do not have a team attitude. That's our club philosophy...sorry.

Sorry but I don't think that the OP asking if repeating a compulsory level is in her daughter's best interest ( when she has scored well and gotten skills she was told she would need to move up) means she "does not have team attitude"...and I agree with 4theloveofsports, gymnastics is more of a group of individuals on a team versus say a baseball team.

Your posts make me wonder what kind of "team" you are promoting JBS where you have a gymnast who basically wins everything in her level and she doesn't move up? Just so her "team" can win compulsory level states? I know gyms do this but something seems so wrong with that scenario in that the ringer is valued over progression....