Repeating Levels - Best for Gymnast or Selfish Gym

[JBS]

Interesting concepts some of you have...our team has grown tremendously since we have moved away from the individual concept and more towards team. Does that mean that some kids have an altered path in short term situations...YES. Does it change the ultimate path of that gymnast...NO.

We are far from the best...but we are still trying to WIN...yes WIN. What happens if we don't WIN...we still have pizza and ice cream after the meet. How hard are we trying to WIN at each of the various levels...that's the real question. If you want our entire philosophy...come join our team.

I can tell you one thing though...a 14 year old L6 with a 32.00 AA but a 9.6 or 9.7 or 9.8 vault is very much a part of the team...and you better believe it is to that gymnasts best interest to be at a club that values team over individual 10 year old L7's.

A great quote...

There is no "i" in team but there is in win. ~Michael Jordan

Yes...it takes individuals to make a great team. Maybe because I value the team so much...I value each individual gymnast and family even more?

Once again...the answer to the original question is to talk to the coaches.

 

[skschlag]

I think the team concept can be hard for people to see in gymnastics. But I agree, from my experience, most coaches truly value each gymnast, and want the best for him/her. That is within the context of a team. I think a real talk with the coaches, just asking them their plan,a nd their thoughts would be helpful.

QUick story on the team/individual thing. My son, when he started level 5, and I were talking. He had done well at 4, but wanted him to realize what 5 would be like. I told him...."This meet will be different. Remember, you are competing against kids like X,Y, and Z (naming the top 3 level 5s on his team." His reply to me..."oh, no mom! I am not competing against them, we are on a team!" That to me is the whole point of this or any sport. Having that attitude of working with others. And I know, on our boys' team, they are always much more excited when the team wins that any one gymnast winning.

 

[hawaii_gymnast]

Different gyms must have different philosophies over just about everything, nobody is the same and you need to find a gym that fits your philosophy. There are very team oriented gyms and very individual gyms and many gyms that fit somewhere in the middle, it is your job as a parent to find a gym that suits your child's needs and goals. One gym is not wrong for valuing the benefit of the team over the athlete or the other way, it is just different. So to answer the question, team value over individual works and is alright, depends on your philosophy.

 

[gasrgoose]

Thanks to ALL for the wonderful responses. I appreciate reading your opinions.

To clarify a couple things:

1. At our gym in order to move up to the next level you must pass all the level requirements plus 90% of the additional skills such as the switch leap on beam, beam series, 1/1 on tramp, tsuk timers, etc for L7. The switch leap on beam is not in the L7 routines.

2. We compete Fall Compulsory and Spring Optionals. So my daughter will not lose a year in repeating L6 but I see her utilizing so much gym time on the L6 routines instead of perfecting the L7. 10% L7 and 90% L7. She complains about this.

3. She does up train - flipping tsuks and yurchenkos, series, arials and tucks on beam, twisting on floor and the toe shoots and pirouettes on bars. But my concern is that this up-training is such a small part of gym time while so much time is spent on L6 routines.

4. My daughter does get bored doing L6 over and over. She thrives on setting goals and loves learning new skills. As do all kids.

5. We do have a current L7 team who are training for 8 although some will have to repeat 7. Same coaches as my daughter. Although they are older and practice at different times.

@JBS - I completely agree that she is part of a team and should support and participate as such, but I also think it is selfish to ask us to spend the time and expense to train and attend meets unless it truly benefits her. Which was my main question, is this "plan" (competing L6 again and spending so much time on the routines in practice) in the best interest of my daughter?

@gymgal - I am hoping that the intent is to keep her competition focused and achieving perfection in the basics. That this will be best for her in the long run.

On a side note one of her coaches mentioned to me that she'd love to get my daughter in the gym more, but that there is some push back from the owner as they don't want girls from different groups to train together, even if it's the same coaches. I don't understand this. I have just come to realize that there is a lot of politics in the gym that just has to be accepted. Although I can grumble...

Thanks again to all!

All,

Can you please assure me that my daughter's coaches are making the "right" decision?

Background: My daughter competed L6 in the Fall of 2011 and finished 1st AA at all her season meets, scoring above 37.00 at every meet. She finished first at the State meet in her age group and was in the top 5 of all age groups. She competed L5 the year prior and did equally well. Our gym tests for the next level in the spring. She passed the L7 skills with a 98% only missing her switch leap on the high beam (her leap was only 170 degrees). Partly I have concern that the coaches did not try to push her to do L7 in the Spring of 2012, but I understand that it's better to have strong, solid routines than to be in the "middle of the pack." She did have all her skills in the beginning of 2012, but they told her she couldn't even try. I think the issue was partly due to the fact that the group that she trains with did not do as well in L6 2011 and some needed to repeat the level due to injuries. So there was no one to move up with her.

So the coaches want her to repeat L6 again this fall (2012). The coaches say that this will only benefit her and give her extra competition experience to keep her polished in performance. My concern is less with the added expense of another season, but whether this choice to repeat L6 is actually for her benefit or for the gym's. One coach has made comments like "I need her at States," which I translate to mean that he needs her scores for the State Team. Is this wrong? I was additionally troubled when my daughter made the comment that they are only working on L6 routines on bars (with only one or two passes of 7 skills). Does L6 really build on L7? It seems from my observation that it takes repetition of the cast to handstand and free hip/toe shoot handstand to get the muscle memory. (She's doing her L7 sets on the high bar, versus L6 on the low bar.) Shouldn't she be focusing on the L7 skills 90% and the L6 routines 10%?

Please correct me if I am wrong. (I hope I am.) We love our gym and the other gymnasts and families there, but the politics and inequality (unequal standards and miscommunication) are frustrating. There are a couple girls in the gym who are the same age, that train in a different group (different coaches) who did not do nearly as well as my daughter (35s and maybe a 36 last year), who do not have to repeat L6. It's frustrating for my daughter (and for me), and I don't know what to tell her other than, "Your coaches know what is best for you," (but I'm starting to doubt that).

My daughter just turned 10.

Thanks.

What area of the country do you live? It sounds like you need to have a conversation with the coaches. Clearly your daughter is talented. And apparently the coaches are talented as well. Aren't they ones who have taught your daughter the higher level skills she knows? So find out why they are doing this. At our gym she would have competed level 7 this past spring and possibly repeating 7 again next spring.

Our gym is very competitive in the compulsory levels, but we don't focus on level 6. Actually my daughter is going to compete 6 in the fall and 7 in the spring and is missing the level 6 state meet to go to a training camp with the optional team. As a level 5 team we did very well in the state competition. I'm not saying our way is right for all but it is right for the current group of kids. And it works well for the plan they have for my daughter. It sounds like you don't know the plan for your daughter or if there is a plan. Meet with the coaches and then you'll know if you need to be concerned.

 

[LizzieLac]

I find this discussion very interesting. Our level 5 team was quite successful this year. We won almost every meet we entered, but came in second in states by a very small margin. We did that by having consistent, solid performances by many girls. We did not do it by having a ringer. While I understand that the high scoring girl boosts the team score, and that winning team is like "free" advertising for the gym, most people are smart enough to look closer and see that it is not a strong TEAM that made that win happen - it was one (or maybe two) strong gymnasts. Playing devil's advocate, here, but I would say that also is not the the preferred team.

I think the way you demonstrate your success and abilities as a club is by having many girls thrive and improve in the sport, not by having a couple of ringers.

All of that being said, I get the challenge of balancing the gymnasts's interests and club's. I think one thing that is not being mentioned by anyone is that this gymnast is 10. It is different than asking a 12 or 13 year old to repeat level 6. I have been told time and again on this board that if a gymnast can get the skills and has the ability to reach level 10, go to college, or even elite, she WILL. I understand the OPs frustration or confusion, but her DD sounds very talented and I don't think a fall season of repeating level 6 is going to hold her back. The BIG question is how communication is handled between coaches, kids, and parents. To me, that is what is in question.

Wishing OP and her DD best of luck!

 

[iwannacoach]

I'm concerned that my use of the term "ringer" brings most readers to the assumption in this case that edamame's child repeating level 6 is the same as putting in a ringer. I hold that thought only as a more remote possibility to the opposite case. That being the repeat is requested for the child's benifit so she can muture into a gymnast that will maintain scores in the 37.00 and above range as she moves through levels 7-10.

There simply has to be a point in each top gymnasts development where they exhibit true mastery of how their body expresses the art form that is more commonly referred to as gymnastics. IMO she needs the extra time to bake, and will then be ready to accept, or expect for/from herself that level of mastery. A 37.00+ all-around is nice. It puts you into a group of an estimated 300+ L6 kids in the country.

Compare that to an estimated 20 who score 38.00 plus, and you may get a feel for what I'm talking about. I've been there in two different sports, and while it may not affect each person the same way, it shouted to me that I could do more and be even better.

I want to clearly state that I abhorr the concept of repeating kids for the purpose of dominating a level. I can't stand the message that winning is more important than achievement, being sent to kids.

Sure it's fun to win, but these kids repeating have no idea what a challenge it is to advance beyond level 8, and they'll realize too late that taking the time to repeat for the purpose of winning a team title at a few levels along the way has made it all the more difficult to realize their long term dreams.

In the case of edamame's dd the repeat scenario benifits her most of all as she appears to have the natural gifts required to move successfully through level 7 to 8, 9 ,& 10, and the team will have a better chance of winning a title. No problem with that, as the only other option for repeating with-out the team reaping a benifit would be putting her in as an independant, and that's just plain crazy.

Weighing in on the team concept.....I think a team concept where a group of individuals are brought together to train toward each individual's own goals while they support each other emotionally during practice and at meets is the true essence of sportsmanship. It does make it harder for a gym to be recognized as a local leader in the sport, and a good place to switch your dd to, so don't expect every gym to support the "individal centered" team concept.

My model makes it harder to keep the doors open, and many club owners just can't take that risk, just as some salary earning parents can't risk new ideas at work that are a little "on the edge". So if you can't do it yourself, try to understand when your club says it's in the same boat as you.

I'm just say'n.......

 

[JBS]

This is a great thread...I really appreciate everyone that has posted in this thread. It is a very interesting thread.

I agree that edamame and her daughter seem to be at a good gym and conversation or two with the coaches should bring clarity to the path.

Also...there is a big difference between "trying to win" and teaching "winning is everything". Our club "tries to win".

 

[cbone]

This is like my fifth try to post on this thread. I'll be brief and hope it works this time.

I believe that strong teams build strong individuals. My daughter's team made her better all last season. Even more importantly, when she fell off of beam at one meet and AA was out for her, she knew that her team still needed a strong vault and she performed to help the team.

To OP- I don't know you or your gym. That said, you chose that gym for a reason. My first inclination is to tell you to trust your coaches. You have chosen them to guide your daughter's progression in the sport. Let them do it. Coaches see things that we don't. Even if it's just subconscious pattern recognition, they see a reason to have your daughter repeat. That's not necessarily a commentary on her skills. It's a commentary on what they feel will be best for her and the team.

 

[gymgal]

there is something to be said for keeping the team together, too, if they are close knit and will all move up in January together. I know this doesn't always happen, but the coach may be thinking this and if your dd has gained confidence and support from these girls, it just adds to the reasoning.

 

[iwannacoach]

To OP- I don't know you or your gym. That said, you chose that gym for a reason. My first inclination is to tell you to trust your coaches. You have chosen them to guide your daughter's progression in the sport. Let them do it. Coaches see things that we don't. Even if it's just subconscious pattern recognition, they see a reason to have your daughter repeat. That's not necessarily a commentary on her skills. It's a commentary on what they feel will be best for her and the team.

If I had thought to say ^^^^^that in the first place, I would have saved a ton of time......very well said and to the point!

 

[edamame]

I think the way you demonstrate your success and abilities as a club is by having many girls thrive and improve in the sport, not by having a couple of ringers.

I have been told time and again on this board that if a gymnast can get the skills and has the ability to reach level 10, go to college, or even elite, she WILL. I understand the OPs frustration or confusion, but her DD sounds very talented and I don't think a fall season of repeating level 6 is going to hold her back. The BIG question is how communication is handled between coaches, kids, and parents. To me, that is what is in question.

@LizzieLac - I completely agree with your definition of success. That's all we really want for our gymnasts right? For them to improve and thrive within a healthy environment as we support them in reaching their goals.

I also agree to some degree with your comment that natural ability can take a person very far, but I do believe that coaching (good coaching) goes hand-in-hand with that ability. You need someone to mold the clay right?

But I do appreciate your thoughtful comments. I understand now that a conversation with the coaches needs to happen to clarify a few things.

 

[edamame]

Thanks @JBS for your comments. It's great to hear from other coaches and parents and not just the murmuring and feedback from the other "crazy" parents at my gym. (Myself included at times)

And after letting everything settle and having a couple talks with my daughter, she's set some great goals for the season and she feels good about the upcoming year. Which is all I want. She nearly made the 38 club a few times last year (just missed by 0.025 and 0.125 at the closest meets), but she's hoping to excel and maybe even make the 39.000 mark). We'll see, but it's nice for her to set the goals and work toward them.

Thanks again for all the support!

 

[JBS]

I agree with bookworm. A "private" club, in my opinion must put the individual gymnast first before the team as a whole. If the "team" is a school team, college team or of a public entity, then JBS philosophy may make sense. But when you are paying about $400 a month and are enrolled in a private club, it is not acceptable to me to put the team first. I am paying for my individual daughter to benefit from the training, not the other way around. In addition, as much as many private and public clubs advocate the team philosophy, gymnastics is more an individual sport than a team sport. Team sports are easily identifiable, soccer, baseball, football, etc. It is very clear to me that while a gymnastics team vie for team recognition and placement, it is only secondary to the individual aspect

Yes...totally agree...not many people care about how USA does as a team in the Olympics...and China...I heard they are not even entering the team competition in London. I don't care who wins the team competition at the Olympics as long as Gabby or Jordyn win the AA gold...are you kidding me? I'm sure Marta agrees with you...oh wait...she doesn't even have any of her own gymnasts anymore...I guess her position is eliminated in your system.

So you would say that in NCAA gymnastics...the same sport as regular gymnastics...individual recognition trumps team recognition?

 

[edamame]

To OP- I don't know you or your gym. That said, you chose that gym for a reason. My first inclination is to tell you to trust your coaches. You have chosen them to guide your daughter's progression in the sport. Let them do it. Coaches see things that we don't. Even if it's just subconscious pattern recognition, they see a reason to have your daughter repeat. That's not necessarily a commentary on her skills. It's a commentary on what they feel will be best for her and the team.

Thanks for this great note. I do trust our coaches and I appreciate being reminded that I need to sit back and "cheer" from the sidelines. Sometimes the "play" just seems wrong and I feel like Leigh Anne Tuohy from the movie The Blind Side calling the coach on his cell phone in the middle of the game and saying, "Run the dang ball!" Yes, I'll just put the cell phone down...

Thanks again!

 

[JBS]

Thanks @JBS for your comments. It's great to hear from other coaches and parents and not just the murmuring and feedback from the other "crazy" parents at my gym. (Myself included at times)

And after letting everything settle and having a couple talks with my daughter, she's set some great goals for the season and she feels good about the upcoming year. Which is all I want. She nearly made the 38 club a few times last year (just missed by 0.025 and 0.125 at the closest meets), but she's hoping to excel and maybe even make the 39.000 mark). We'll see, but it's nice for her to set the goals and work toward them.

Thanks again for all the support!

I wish you and your daughter the best of luck. I am just as crazy as anyone else here. Communication is key...that's all...it helps us all understand where the other person is coming from.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm gonna side with 4TheLoveOfSports on this one.

I think as coaches, our job is to do what's best for each individual kid. Gymnastics is not inherently a team sport the way, say, soccer or football is. There's no element of teamwork in an actual competitive routine. Sure, it helps for teammates to be supportive of each other and so on, but when you're up there on the bar, your teammates' performance has absolutely zero effect or relevance to your own performance.

When a team gets a trophy or a banner for their performance, it goes up in the gym. When an individual gets a medal, she can keep it for the rest of her life. When an individual learns a new skill, it's generally all but inconsequential to the team as a whole, but for that individual gymnast, it's HUGE.



EDIT: As for the original question, whether a kid should move up or not depends on an enormous number of factors, most of which have nothing to do with scores. From the OP, it sounds like I would probably have moved the kid up, HOWEVER I would defer to her coach on this one, because he obviously knows her much better than I do.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Thanks for this great note. I do trust our coaches and I appreciate being reminded that I need to sit back and "cheer" from the sidelines. Sometimes the "play" just seems wrong and I feel like Leigh Anne Tuohy from the movie The Blind Side calling the coach on his cell phone in the middle of the game and saying, "Run the dang ball!" Yes, I'll just put the cell phone down...

Thanks again!

Love your attitude ( and your daughter's)! The fact that she is setting goals for herself shows she
must understand and accept the coaches decision at some level. And I think you have the perfect amount of concern for your daughter and the path her coaches have planned for her. Good luck to both of you!

 

[BlairBob]

Late to the thread.

If everything said by OP was true, then I call BS on the coach. Sorry, get someone else to carry your team. I've dealt with this in myself thinking with this kid staying down a level, we're gonna rule as a team. Then said kid gets moved up and I'm out a score. I deal with it, I move on.

Keeping kids another year in the compulsories doesn't make sense. Ever. Especially if they have the talent to be a collegiate or elite gymnast. Wasted time on learning the compulsories and practicing them when they could be uptraining. Also, higher levels typically means they will train more hours. Most L7s train more than L6's, possibly by another day of training (5 instead of 4) or an hour longer per workout.

I understanding wanting to move up groups as a team but the reality is some kids won't move up for various reasons to enumerate. Maybe there isn't space in the next level or they are tight on coaches as it is or it will cause drama by other parents if she moves out of her group and others don't.

 

[bookworm]

[QUOT

E]Yes...totally agree...not many people care about how USA does as a team in the Olympics...and China...I heard they are not even entering the team competition in London. I don't care who wins the team competition at the Olympics as long as Gabby or Jordyn win the AA gold...are you kidding me? I'm sure Marta agrees with you...oh wait...she doesn't even have any of her own gymnasts anymore...I guess her position is eliminated in your system.

So you would say that in NCAA gymnastics...the same sport as regular gymnastics...individual recognition trumps team recognition?[/QUOTE]

Your quote about the NCAA ...she isn't get recruited to be on such team because the rest of her team is doing well, it's because SHE (the individual gymnast) would be an asset with her skills. She can be on a team like the Geddert's Level 10s that win,win, win at JOs but if the individual gymnast isn't progressed, well she's just a cheerleader...

And don't kid yourself about Marta...she's waiting for Maroney to bring home her individual gold on vault, if all else fails. Yes, team gold is her first wish but she won't be kicking Maroney to the curb if she pulls off the individual gold as well.

Late to the thread.

If everything said by OP was true, then I call BS on the coach. Sorry, get someone else to carry your team. I've dealt with this in myself thinking with this kid staying down a level, we're gonna rule as a team. Then said kid gets moved up and I'm out a score. I deal with it, I move on.

Keeping kids another year in the compulsories doesn't make sense. Ever. Especially if they have the talent to be a collegiate or elite gymnast. Wasted time on learning the compulsories and practicing them when they could be uptraining. Also, higher levels typically means they will train more hours. Most L7s train more than L6's, possibly by another day of training (5 instead of 4) or an hour longer per workout.

I understanding wanting to move up groups as a team but the reality is some kids won't move up for various reasons to enumerate. Maybe there isn't space in the next level or they are tight on coaches as it is or it will cause drama by other parents if she moves out of her group and others don't.

Thank you Blair Bob for putting this so eloquently...

 

[JBS]

Your quote about the NCAA ...she isn't get recruited to be on such team because the rest of her team is doing well, it's because SHE (the individual gymnast) would be an asset with her skills.

I agree...just like in baseball...football...soccer. Also...she could be the best vaulter (pitcher) in the world...if the team does not need a vaulter (pitcher)...she will not get recruited to that team.

She can be on a team like the Geddert's Level 10s that win,win, win at JOs but if the individual gymnast isn't progressed, well she's just a cheerleader...

I'm lost...are you saying that Geddert's doesn't progress individuals...they have the current world champion?

I'm trying to see it from your side but I'm having a very hard time...I have never been at a club like this. Valuing team does not mean that we do not uptrain or progress individuals. Just as the pitcher must be trained as an individual in baseball...so must gymnasts be trained.

Anyways...I respect everyone's thoughts...however...our club is not for everyone...that's why we're "private".