Level 5 bar deduction questions.

[mygymnastrocks]

I have two friends daughters going to level 5 this season.. One of them doesn't have her kip. She was asking me if I knew what the deduction was for no kips and being spotted doing the KIP.. My daughter is level 5 again this year, but has no problem with her KIPS, so I'm not sure.. I told her if I had to guess, its .50 for each spot and then deduction for the skill value ( I can't find my deduction sheet) Any help would be appreciated.

The gymnast that doesn't have her kip is a natural grace// great flexiblity and used to getting 9's and placing 1st AA most of the time. I hope with them moving her up without the KIP, it doesn't devastate her.

Thanks

 

[bogwoppit]

Not sure what it's worth, but I just cannot imagine going into L5 without the Kip, it will be a tough season for her.

Baby Bog still has an on again off again thing with her Kip, here she can just take a 0.5 deduction for not having the skill and do a pullover instead. Not the same is USAG though.

Tough when they are ready on 3, but struggle on the fourth.

 

[mygymnastrocks]

Thanks for the quick reply. I will pass the information to my friend.

 

[gymnut1]

If her kip is a long way off then she might be better sitting out bars each time. If it is near or she has one of them soon it might be ok to have a go.

I have down the deduction for spotting as element value plus 0.5.

Each kip element value is 0.8 so for spotting both kips they would deduct 2.6 marks. Execution and amplitude deduction for the kips would also be taken on top. Realistically you are looking at a score of about 5 to 6 if deductions are properly taken. Which they aren't always.

Would she be happy with such a low score? Your coaches will know how girls in this position score in your area.

 

[gymdog]

Without the kip I would just have them compete on the 3 events they're ready on (if they would be okay with that). I'm not sure it's worth it anyway, the score would be very low on bars and could be pretty demoralizing. Might be more motivating just to skip it in the hopes of getting all 4 and the AA score in the next one.

 

[Megley]

Just wanted to post my agreement with not competing bars. We had a gymnast last year who was an excellent Level 4; finished first or second AA in her age group but could not get her kip. She tried competing without the kip and received scores in the 5s and 6s. It was incredibly demoralizing for her, she cried at meets, and even though she did get her kip by the end of the season, she wound up quitting entirely after the state meet. I have to feel her experiences with the kip colored her decision.

I personally would advise against competing without the kip, especially if the child is used to winning and getting 9s and would be crushed by super low scores.

 

[Gymdad2]

I think the advice being given here is good, but doesn't it really depend on your dd? Yes, she will get a low score without the L5 kips, so how do you think she will feel/react? When I read this thread, I got to remembering dd's first meet. Our gym didn't do L4 then, so she had to start at L5 and of course she missed both kips in the first meet and scored a 5 something on bars. She had never experienced winning like your dd has, but the low score didn't really bother her. It just made her more determined to be better and it worked. She will be a 2nd year L10 this season so I guess every child is different. Good luck to your dd.

 

[mygymnastrocks]

I don't think the gym would have her skip the bars.. I know this girl will be devastated if she's not on top.. She's always been 1st AA and when my friend told me she was being moved up, I was concerned. She only got her KIP once and from my understanding, hasn't been close again.. We had a girl from our gym who missed her KIPS regularly.. One of her scores was 4.75 and the other in the 5's. Thanks for all of your responses,I appreciate you taking the tmie to answer for me.

 

[MaryA]

My dd is in the exact same position... first AA at Level 4 states, ready to compete at level 5 on all events except for bars. She actually got her first kip today (!!!!) but just one... I'm hoping it wasn't an isolated incident and that maybe she'll get it twice at the next practice... and maybe 3 times at the practice after that... but who knows? She's struggling with the squat-on too. First meet isn't until Oct. 23, so she has a bit of time to get it... I don't know if the coach will have her compete on bars if she doesn't have it at least semi-consistantly or not... though my daughter is one who will pull things off at the meets that she consistently misses in practice. But I still think she's better off competing level 5 than staying at level 4. Our gym doesn't do much in the way of "training up." It's a Y team and with only 6 hours of practice a week, the level 4s mostly just work on level 4 skills, the level 5s mostly just work on level 5 skills. I think she'd be bored to tears doing level 4 stuff again. If she has to repeat level 5 again, so be it.

 

[LizzieLac]

My DD is in the same boat. Last year she competed Prep Opt and won states, so she has very solid level 4 skills and most of her level 5 skills (which is the level she will be competing this year) - but does not have her kip yet. Our coaches do not like to have the girls compete unless they can really compete all 4 events. So DD will probably not compete the first couple of meets of the season until she has her kip. My DD really enjoys competing so I thought she would be upset missing these first meets, but she understands that she needs to be solid in all of her skills. So she is very determined to get there and is very motivated in practice so when she is really ready she can compete all 4 events.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

I have no idea waht the exact deduction for not kipping would be, but i do know that there is a flat deduction for the spot alone, and then they tack on form deductions if there are any. The child would actually score higher if she attempted kip correctly and fell than if she were to have a coach spot....i'm pretty sure.

I'm not sure that I agree with having the child scratch on bars. She would be going in to the meet knowing that she would fall on the kips. If the rest of her routine is ready to go and she can connect the skills, it wouldn't be impossible for her to score a 7 something on bars, maybe even the high end of a 7.something - which is higher than a zero for scratching. The 7 would at least give the kid a chance in the AA...she might not get first AA, but she might not get LAST if she doesn't scratch. If the parents and coaches are honest with the child and let her know that she can't get a 9 on bars with 2 falls, and the kid understands going in that she will be scored based on 2 falls (and she is okay with that) then I don't see any reason to have her scratch.

 

[gymcoach34]

If she is spotted .8 (value of the kip) +.5-same as if she fell x 2= 2.6 of deduction off the top.

If she fell she would lose part of the skill maybe .4 (if she's close) plus the .5 for the fall, plus form deductions for each kip.....its a lose- lose situation for the athlete (and I say this not only bc she would score low)-- she should scratch bars until she has her kips.

IMHO-Going into a meet & missing kips bc you are inexperienced is totally different than facing the bars knowing you do not have 2 of the major skills in a routine. Someone needs to help this kid out!

 

[gymdog]

I'm not sure that I agree with having the child scratch on bars. She would be going in to the meet knowing that she would fall on the kips. If the rest of her routine is ready to go and she can connect the skills, it wouldn't be impossible for her to score a 7 something on bars, maybe even the high end of a 7.something - which is higher than a zero for scratching. The 7 would at least give the kid a chance in the AA...she might not get first AA, but she might not get LAST if she doesn't scratch. If the parents and coaches are honest with the child and let her know that she can't get a 9 on bars with 2 falls, and the kid understands going in that she will be scored based on 2 falls (and she is okay with that) then I don't see any reason to have her scratch.

It would be VERY difficult in my opinion for a child who cannot do kips to score a 7 on L5. Even having both kips and connections kids are getting 7s at the first meets easy (tap swings and lack of amplitude can be killer). If they can't do a kip at all I have a hard time imagine they swing powerfully enough that they could get that high of a score, especially in early meets where scoring is lower. 5s and 6s would be more likely.

 

[MaryA]

If they can't do a kip at all I have a hard time imagine they swing powerfully enough that they could get that high of a score, especially in early meets where scoring is lower. 5s and 6s would be more likely.

Actually, my daughter has beautiful tap swings... if she could only get her kip to get up there and do them! If the fact that she has a powerful tap swing is indicative of her being able to do her kip, I'll keep hoping that it's just a timing thing and that she'll get it... SOON!!!! First meet Oct. 23! She's going in for a private on Monday. Maybe a little 1-on-1 time will help...

 

[gymdog]

Actually, my daughter has beautiful tap swings... if she could only get her kip to get up there and do them! If the fact that she has a powerful tap swing is indicative of her being able to do her kip, I'll keep hoping that it's just a timing thing and that she'll get it... SOON!!!! First meet Oct. 23! She's going in for a private on Monday. Maybe a little 1-on-1 time will help...

It's not necessarily indicative, but the stronger their sense of swinging is, the easier it usually is for them to get it. But some people can never do a kip (or it would take a looooong time) so "easier" is relative. It might still take more than the couple month gap many kids have in between a L4 and 5 season. But honestly either way I think a kid is unlikely to score in the 7s without either kip.

 

[bookworm]

Going into a meet & missing kips bc you are inexperienced is totally different than facing the bars knowing you do not have 2 of the major skills in a routine. Someone needs to help this kid out![/QUOTE]

Itc would be VERY difficult in my opinion for a child who cannot do kips to score a 7 on L5. Even having both kips and connections kids are getting 7s at the first meets easy (tap swings and lack of amplitude can be killer). If they can't do a kip at all I have a hard time imagine they swing powerfully enough that they could get that high of a score, especially in early meets where scoring is lower. 5s and 6s would be more likely.

Why would a gymnast without a kip be even considered for moving up to Level 5? To me, that skill is the absolute gatekeeper for the Level and without it, her scores will be dismal. Why wouldn't she continue to compete as a 4 and when she gets the skill, move up? Or she could even do prep op while working on the skill. I don't care if she won everything as a 4, without the kip, she shouldn't go 5 because she is missing a MAJOR skill.

 

[MaryA]

Why wouldn't she continue to compete as a 4 and when she gets the skill, move up? Or she could even do prep op while working on the skill. I don't care if she won everything as a 4, without the kip, she shouldn't go 5 because she is missing a MAJOR skill.

This wouldn't work the way our gym is set up. It's a Y gym with minimal practice time and there is little-to-no "up-training." So the level 4s aren't working on kips, they are working on level 4 skills. My dd has her level 4 skills. The only way she'll be able to work on her kip is if she is level 5. I'd be O.K. with it if the coach told the girls they couldn't compete until they had their kip, but I don't think they'll do that. I think they'll just have those without their kip not compete on bars.

 

[fishchimes]

The way I see it is that even if you did a bar routine with no kips, you still went out there and did it. It gives some closure to a meet. I would feel incredibly irked if I had to scratch an event.

Also, I would add up the total deductions for not having the kips to see what I would have gotten with the kips. Knowing that once you get your kips you will score wayyy higher is motivating-- in a good way

Why would a gymnast without a kip be even considered for moving up to Level 5? To me, that skill is the absolute gatekeeper for the Level and without it, her scores will be dismal. Why wouldn't she continue to compete as a 4 and when she gets the skill, move up? Or she could even do prep op while working on the skill. I don't care if she won everything as a 4, without the kip, she shouldn't go 5 because she is missing a MAJOR skill.

Yes, but it's ONE EVENT. I think it would be demoralizing and frustrating to be stuck in level 4 because even though you might have had all your other skills down pat, you didn't have a kip. If she is shaky on a lot of other skills, maybe.

First meet Oct. 23!

Is that Halloween Invitational in NY? :O I have my first meet the exact same day!

 

[bogwoppit]

CAn girls in USAG compete a pullover in L5. Yes they would lose the value of the kipx2 but they would not have a deduction for a fall or spot?

In our P2 level a kip is reuired and is worth 0.5, if a girl doesn't have it she loses 0.5 from her start value and can use a pullover, either glide or long hang, she will of course still get deductions for form on the pullover.

Is this possible?

 

[gymcoach34]

I think it would be worse Bog. Omitting a major element deduction is double the value-or 1.6 for each kip.

My advice stays the same...Just hold off on bars until this poor child gets her kip!