Level 8 bars - accidental coach touch deduction

[Muddlethru]

At states this weekend, my daughter landed both vaults but on the second, better vault, her vault coach I think instinctively reached out and accidentally touched her as she was coming off the horse or upon landing. Her HC said it was no big deal because her vault was really good, it was high and landed a great distance away from the horse. So I think the move of the vault coach may have just been instinctive and unfortunately by accident touched my daughter. Her HC however indicated, when I inquired about the deduction, that the coaches are allowed to assist in landing. I am not upset at the coach because she may have reached out instinctively (though my daughter is upset because it was her best vault ever and it was states). If relevant, she did a yurchenko front tuck. Nonetheless, I am curious and would like to know if there is a deduction For the accidenal touch and if coaches are indeed allowed to assist on landings without penalties. My daughter's vault clearly did not need any assistance. .Can someone please clarify?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, there is a deduction for spotting/touching the gymnast. yes, they can step in if they think it's necessary and assist anything they need to but not without deduction if they touch them.

and you said yurchenko front tuck. did you mean podkopayeva? that's a round off>to 1/2 turn on to the table>then front tuck off. if she did a pod, she really has improved alot since i last saw her.

 

[Muddlethru]

I wish I could say she was doing that skill and that she has improved considerably. Truth is I think her vault is just the regular yurchenko and her progress I think is as expected. Nothing much has changed with the coaching.

I feel a little misled because her HC said there was no deduction for the touch. I am sure they felt bad accidentalky touching her. Hence the cover up. But out of curiosity, could the deduction be a .5-difference between making the state team and all star team.

yes, there is a deduction for spotting/touching the gymnast. yes, they can step in if they think it's necessary and assist anything they need to but not without deduction if they touch them.

and you said yurchenko front tuck. did you mean podkopayeva? that's a round off>to 1/2 turn on to the table>then front tuck off. if she did a pod, she really has improved alot since i last saw her.

 

[flipper's fan]

I thought that a vault was voided if the coach touches the gymnast. Isn't that a new rule from last year? It used to be a deduction but now I think it's a 0. That is what they do here.

 

[gymmom14]

Here it is a zero too. It happened to my dd last year. Judge's thought coach touched her and she was given a zero.

 

[Muddlethru]

I've been told that too. That is why I am very confused. I don't know why she did not get a zero. She got two vault scores. The better vault her coach accidentally touched her got an 8.8. I am very curious what the deduction was and why she did not get a zero on that vault. Any judge here know the answer?

 

[Muddlethru]

In searching the net, I found a " touch" to the gymnast coming off the horse is .5. It was clearly not a spot or assistance off the horse. The coach's hand merely grazed my daughter. That's ok. She made state team.

 

[gymdog]

I've been told that too. That is why I am very confused. I don't know why she did not get a zero. She got two vault scores. The better vault her coach accidentally touched her got an 8.8. I am very curious what the deduction was and why she did not get a zero on that vault. Any judge here know the answer?

There's a difference between what they consider assisting with the skill (for example, helping the kid block off the table into the flip between the springboard and the table) or assisting less ("safety spotting" the landing with a small touch - keeping the kid from falling on the landing). I thought this was still the case on vault, maybe I'm wrong, clearly they didn't void the vault so either they didn't see the coach touch her or they did take the .5 deduction for a lighter spot. If she got an 8.8 and he clearly touched her, my guess was they took .5 and considered that the spot was not enough to consider assisting her actually finishing the skill.

As far as why the coach would do it, unfortunately unless they are 100% consistent and safe on these sorts of skills to where the coach can stand back (and some skills may never be like this in terms of JO gymnastics), this kind of goes with the territory. Especially when we are talking a level 8 yurchenko vault in an unfamiliar environment. That is one of the most complex and "dangerous" skills a level 8 can perform in terms of timing, speed, rotation. We are able to minimize the danger through things like safety spotting. It may have been a mistake, but it's a much better mistake to make and wonder whether she could have made the state team, than to have there be any chance of injury and wonder later if the coach would have been there would she not be out with an injury missing regionals completely. In this instance, it might have gone successfully, but the actions of the coach lead me to believe that before she went he thought there was some chance she might not be 100% confident or complete the vault...especially from the description it sounds like the vault before wasn't the best. And it's also possible that the presence of the coach allowed her to do a more aggressive, better vault.

Making regionals on either state team or all-star team is great, if that is the way your region does it. It's especially tough to do in certain age groups.

Edited to try to describe what I mean better about the spotting differences.

 

[gymdog]

To clarify, I just looked up the official language on the vault sheets, and it's basically what I thought (this is from 2009-2013 info):

Spotting assistance during the vault: VOID
Spot on landing: .5 - so technically the feet would need to hit simultaneously or before the spot - some judges might be more lenient than others

So I thought they were more lenient if there was a touch during the support phase that doesn't seem like an assist, but I guess that is getting into too much gray area. It's never come up for me, so I'm not sure. It's possible judges might interpret something like this differently (though they shouldn't, it can happen). If he touched her close enough to when her feet landed, then it would be landing assistance.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

to clarify, if the coach was standing on a block/board/mat at he table end and grabbed the gymnast and flipped them over, this vault would receive a big fat 0. if the coach stepped in and 'flinch' spotted or physically reached in before their face hit the mat, this vault would receive a 5/10's deduction. i suppose it could have kept her from the all star team. add the .5 back and see where that puts her in the all around.

 

[Muddlethru]

Thanks dunno and gymdog. It was evident the coach reached in. It was hard to tell from where we were if the hand touched. But our coach did confirm the hand touched but did not say there was a deduction. And yes, my daughter's vault is not 100% consistent. And I certainly prefer to err on the side of caution/safety. So, I am not even worried or upset about the touch or the subsequent deduction. I was just confused about the deduction and why not the zero.

Nonetheless, she did make the All Star Team with the touch deduction on vault and a fall on her butt on floor doing her round off backandspring, front pike, front tuck, wobbled for the first time on her squat on on bars! With all those mistakes, she still made All Star!

My daughter is happy and so am I. Her first regionals and one of only 3 10 year old that made regionals.

 

[gymkat]

I've been told that too. That is why I am very confused. I don't know why she did not get a zero. She got two vault scores. The better vault her coach accidentally touched her got an 8.8. I am very curious what the deduction was and why she did not get a zero on that vault. Any judge here know the answer?

Benefit of the doubt goes to the gymnast. If the coach did not assist her during the skill and only grazed her arm, the judges may not have taken a deduction. It's hard to say without being on the competition floor. However, I certainly wouldn't assume that the coach is lying about not getting a deduction.

Also, are you sure that she got a vault score for each vault? I've only seen judges flashing scores for each vault separately on four-judge panels. Could the two scores have been the two judges' individual scores for the best vault?

 

[gymdog]

My daughter is happy and so am I. Her first regionals and one of only 3 10 year old that made regionals.

It's amazing to even have the requirements of this level as a 10 year old! She did great!