Repeating Levels - Best for Gymnast or Selfish Gym

[C's MOM]

Late to the thread.


Maybe there isn't space in the next level or they are tight on coaches as it is (or it will cause drama by other parents if she moves out of her group and others don't.)

Does this last part really happen? This would concern me more than the OP's DD repeating a level for the sake of repeating. How many coaches out there really stop to consider the "Drama" that is/could be created by other parents? This troubles me.
I would hope that coaches consider their gymnasts far more than their parents. Yes, I am a parent; however, I am a parent that has always deferred to the coach because I really trust that he has my DD's best interest at heart. I have been told that some parents 'push' their kid through the levels, or better said that some coaches push the kid through because the parents are pestering him/her. (I'm not talking about DD's current gym.) This troubles me because the kid will inevitably be the loser.
Everyone involved should consider the individual kid for who he or she is. JBS, I'm with you on the team idea, but in reality gymnastics IS an individual sport that feeds into the TEAM. What I mean is that the individual scores all add up to how well the team does. However, the coach has to progress the gymmie based on his/her individual needs. You wouldn't push a level 4 to be a level 7 only because she is the only level 4 and moving her up will now make a team of 2 level 7's a team of 3 level 7's so therefore the gym can NOW enter the team competition would you? Confusing??

 

[JessLW]

I've heard this argument before at my gym. I guess I don't understand it. If you would have been spending money on competitions and travel anyway, why is money spent competing at the gymnast's previous level a waste, but competing at the new level is money well spent?

Cbone, the OP's daughter will be doing two meet seasons in one year. Competing L6 in fall and L7 in Spring. She's already competed L6 once (twice? if I read correctly?), so it isn't a matter of doing a split season in order to obtain a move-up score. No one is going to complain about paying for meets, it is the double season when there's no real reason for this particular gymnast to have a double season that is the issue. I don't think many parents would even object if a new L6 did a fall season, then her coaches decided she was ready for L7 by the Spring, but when the gymnast has already gone through L6 it just seems a pointless waste of money -- from an individual point of view.

And that money is not inconsequential either. Meet fees increase as the levels increase. Optionals are expensive. I don't know if I'd use the word selfish, but I think a gym that asks a girl who is scoring 37+ in the AA and has all of her skills for the next level plus skills for two levels above to do another season at L6 is ... asking a lot. It is one thing to ask the kid to take one for the team but it is another thing to ask a parent's wallet to do the same.

 

[C's MOM]

I guess I go back to the OPs posts and can't see how another season at a compulsory level will benefit HER CHILD...she's scored 37s ("almost in the 38 club a few times") , has the skills for the next level , and she's not very young, she's 10...and gymnastics isn't a cheap sport (the tuition in our gym for a Level 6 is 425/month) ...and she also mentioned that others were moving up with lesser skills..I just can't help but think that this mom's trusting nature is being taken advantage of....just saying. I personally don't care if she stays a 6 for 5 years but the OP did ask what people thought , given her circumstances, and this is what I thought...

What proves your point more/also Bookworm is that the OP also said her DD's coach did say, "We need her!" Am I getting that wrong OP? It does sound like OP's coaches are using DD as the golden ticket which is a shame. If DD is ready for a level let her be. That is if she is physically AND mentally ready, then let her go to 7.

 

[cbone]

JessLW, I guess I personally look at competition as the payoff for all the hard work in the gym. I love competition for competition's sake, not as a means to score out of a level. Granted, my little one is young and I may feel completely differently once she's a Level 6/7. I think of competition as a game in another sport- just because we won the championship last year, doesn't mean I don't want to play again.

I certainly see the other side, too. I guess I just think about the purpose of competition differently. Do you think that the mentality you are mentioning is a product of the "get to Level 10" thinking in JO? I guess if that's the ultimate goal, as opposed to enjoying the process of competing, repeating seems like a HUGE waste of money and time.

 

[gymgal]

I've heard this argument before at my gym. I guess I don't understand it. If you would have been spending money on competitions and travel anyway, why is money spent competing at the gymnast's previous level a waste, but competing at the new level is money well spent?

Lets give this an analogy. Child passes Algebra course with a 95. Teacher tells the parents that the child should retake Algebra for the added benefit of understanding it even more, and to keep the child's class together (all of which need to retake it due to poor grades). Oh, and also so the child can provide a model to the other students (parents of extremely gifted children - sound familiar?) Pretend you are paying per class for these courses. Would you REALLY pay to have your child retake the Algebra 1 class, just to keep the group together and on the off chance that she MIGHT learn a little more? Or will you advance her to Algebra 2, knowing she has a solid foundation and that Algebra 2 will provide plenty of opportunities to review the old material?

Class dismissed....

JessLW, I guess I personally look at competition as the payoff for all the hard work in the gym. I love competition for competition's sake, not as a means to score out of a level. Granted, my little one is young and I may feel completely differently once she's a Level 6/7. I think of competition as a game in another sport- just because we won the championship last year, doesn't mean I don't want to play again.

the OP's dd is not "just" scoring out of level 6. that would be if she did 1 meet and got the minimal mobility requirements. this girl was a champion at this level, scoring near the top of most girls. She has mastered the level. And of course she should go for champion again, but not that the same level. Where's the challenge in that? And if there is a potential goal of college then taking the extra time to redo a mastered level most certainly comes into play. Right now, as her age, she is poised well to have a good amount of years at 10 for prep to college. But injuries can get in the way. And also, if this coach is willing to hold her back at L6 (which is increasingly becoming a "lets skip" level), what will he/she do at the upper levels when her teammates can't keep up?

And Cbone, I am not picking on you or your posts. You bring up very good points, but like most things, there are equally opposite good points. Honestly, if it were my child, at this point, I would leave well enough alone, let her choose to compete 6 in the fall (if it's an option) or just train with the team, and then move to 7 in Jan. However, I think I would have fought harder back last Nov/dec to have her test for 7 - or at least get a more concrete explanation as to why she couldn't compete/train 7.

 

[gymdog]

Well I guess she is not really repeating per the clarification about fall and spring, in the sense she isn't "missing" getting to move up to level 7. HOWEVER, I stand by my assertion that it doesn't make sense for these parents to pay for a full roster of meets in the fall, and then again in the spring, when it seems unnecessary by any reasonable standard. I would not want to do this. It is a TON of money to spend, and I don't see why others are acting like it's strange to even question this. A season of meets runs about $1,000 here. Personally I question before I drop $1,000 and I would have major alarm bells going off in this situation. I would NEVER ask someone to do this for a score. This is how people end up run out of gymnastics. My suggestion is you talk to the coach and say you are willing to do one or two meets, and then states.

 

[lhmom]

I've heard this argument before at my gym. I guess I don't understand it. If you would have been spending money on competitions and travel anyway, why is money spent competing at the gymnast's previous level a waste, but competing at the new level is money well spent?

I have only our gym to give as an example: DD's compulsory team has 9 meets during the season. Only 2 meets are in our town and the others are at least 3+ hours away. Last season, we could usually get away with just going there for the day so only had the expense of gas and meals. But then you have our optional team: they have about 8 meets per season. This last season, the closest meet was 3 hours away and they traveled to Orlando twice (10 hour+ drive: once for an invitational and the other was the Regional meet-some flew and some drove). Having friends whose daughters are optionals, I know how much more expensive moving to Optionals can be. I don't know too many people who would take being asked for their child to do 2 seasons back to back lightly especially when their child did well.

 

[cbone]

Lets give this an analogy. Child passes Algebra course with a 95. Teacher tells the parents that the child should retake Algebra for the added benefit of understanding it even more, and to keep the child's class together (all of which need to retake it due to poor grades). Oh, and also so the child can provide a model to the other students (parents of extremely gifted children - sound familiar?) Pretend you are paying per class for these courses. Would you REALLY pay to have your child retake the Algebra 1 class, just to keep the group together and on the off chance that she MIGHT learn a little more? Or will you advance her to Algebra 2, knowing she has a solid foundation and that Algebra 2 will provide plenty of opportunities to review the old material?

Class dismissed...

Again, this analogy works very well when graduation (getting to Level 10) is the goal. In fact, it makes PERFECT sense in that context. Now let's assume that you are not in school, but are studying math for your own enjoyment. Now let's say you have some friends who want to learn math, too. You decide to study the same material with them to strengthen your foundation and to help tutor your friends. And you still get to solve challenging problems, which you rather enjoy...

I will concede that this is a really easy position for me to take. My daughter is new in the sport and I'm not 100% sure she'll stick with it. (I'm 95% sure, though!) Also, she's a young seven-year-old; there's plenty of time for her to repeat a level (or two) and still reach the Level 10 Promised Land.

And I don't feel picked on at all. The discussion/debate gives me a clearer understanding of different viewpoints and I LOVE that. What I will say, and it ties into the Link Removed thread is that clear communication is lacking in the sport in general and a little bit more would go a long way with parents. An annual parent meeting with the HC would have prevented OP from starting this thread in the first place. (Are you listening, gym owners?)

Forgive the ignorant question, but for those of you who are pointing out that optional meets are more expensive- doesn't repeating Level 6 actually help OP financially? (I'm not saying OP needs financial help, I'm just trying to understand.)

 

[gymgal]

And I don't feel picked on at all. The discussion/debate gives me a clearer understanding of different viewpoints and I LOVE that. What I will say, and it ties into the Link Removed thread is that clear communication is lacking in the sport in general and a little bit more would go a long way with parents. An annual parent meeting with the HC would have prevented OP from starting this thread in the first place. (Are you listening, gym owners?)

Forgive the ignorant question, but for those of you who are pointing out that optional meets are more expensive- doesn't repeating Level 6 actually help OP financially? (I'm not saying OP needs financial help, I'm just trying to understand.)

so true about communication. And point given on your analogy. good one...

As for the expenses - no it doesn't help because if she were to have don't just L6 last fall and then trained L7 after, she would have only last fall (L6) and this coming Jan (L7). Now she has 2 L6 (last and this coming fall) and a L7. So the parents will be paying for an additional season of unnecessary meets (in terms of her progression).

There are lots of gyms who will compete L6 in the fall and then the gymnasts train for L7 from Dec until the following Dec and compete in Jan. Other gyms split the year by competing 6 in the fall and then L7 in january (like the OP's gym).

 

[lhmom]

,
Forgive the ignorant question, but for those of you who are pointing out that optional meets are more expensive- doesn't repeating Level 6 actually help OP financially? (I'm not saying OP needs financial help, I'm just trying to understand.)

Not really because if I understood the OP correctly, her daughter would compete level 6 this fall then level 7 for spring. Back to back seasons, basically. The compulsory team at DD's gym competes from Sept to Feb with the state meet in Dec. The optionals start competing in January with the state and regional meets in the spring (although they usually do 1 meet in Dec as a practice).

 

[iwannacoach]

I guess my question would be why would the OP need to spend more money on meet fees and travel to repeat a level in the fall when her daughter will be competing level 7 in the spring? I'm not so sure I'd want to spend that extra money repeating a season unless the coaches had very good reasons for doing so, especially considering how well she did. Guess I am just thinking of what money our optional parents spend on travel during the season (they travel much further than our compulsory team does).

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Would your opinion be swayed if your daughter had a chance to distinguish herself by posting...oh say the 6th highest, level six score in the country.

Keep in mind that while level six is a compulsory level, it is by no means a one year and move up proposition. Many kids repeat to hone their skills, and use L6 for that purpose. In edamame's case her dd is honing her skills and has a goal. At this point she embraces the concept of repeating so that she can work toward that goal.

I think I would view it differently if she were 12, competing against 10 yo's, was going into her third year of L6, and playing a role as part of a gang of the old kids stealing awards from little kids. I doubt she'll care that much about the awards as her mission is to score in the 38's and to hope for a 39+. I certainly wouldn't want to deny her that chance, and IMO that is why USA gymnastics no longer requires kids to move up a level when they surpass a set score.

This is pretty much happening for this child's benifit, and I welcome any others to aim for a 39 in a second year at L6. Believe me, it is by no means a cake walk......

 

[MaryA]

I don't know about you guys, but my daughter was POOPED by the end of her level 6 season. I mean, she was so tired that the coach was pulling me aside for the "are there problems at home or at school?" talk because my happy, energetic kid was turning into a zombie. Even if she had the skills to start her level 7 season as soon as her level 6 season was finished (which she didn't, and our state's meet schedule doesn't work that way anyway) there is no way she could have jumped right into 7 and had a good season. Come to mention it, I was pooped by the end of her level 6 season too... SO ready to be done with travel and hotels and meets. And to PAY for two back-to-back seasons? No way! Maybe if the plan was to have her do just one meet to score out of 7 and then have a full year to train 8 (or "new 7" or whatever), I might go for it...

 

[cbone]

Not really because if I understood the OP correctly, her daughter would compete level 6 this fall then level 7 for spring. Back to back seasons, basically. The compulsory team at DD's gym competes from Sept to Feb with the state meet in Dec. The optionals start competing in January with the state and regional meets in the spring (although they usually do 1 meet in Dec as a practice).

Okay, I get it. In our area, the girls compete both seasons anyway, so it's not an EXTRA season here; it's a season they would have been going to meets anyway. Thanks for the insight!

 

[lhmom]

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Would your opinion be swayed if your daughter had a chance to distinguish herself by posting...oh say the 6th highest, level six score in the country.

Not really. I guess maybe because we've always stressed to our daughter to focus on what skills she has improved upon at each meet, not what her scores are. I've been happy when she has met her own goals, score-wise but to me it's not the only thing that matters (especially when judging can be so varied at these meets).

 

[gymdog]

Would your opinion be swayed if your daughter had a chance to distinguish herself by posting...oh say the 6th highest, level six score in the country.

Nope, I would never want my daughter to do another season of level 6 (or a gymnast I coached) so I could say they were a nationally ranked level 6. It's LEVEL 6.

And no, to the person who asked, this does not help financially because it is adding an additional roster of the meets for the year. In my opinion if she's ready for level 7 now and will be at level 7 states in spring 2012, she should train for level 7 and mom should not need to pay for a full roster of additional level 6 meets before that happened. Things might be different if the skills were borderline. This kid has had the skills FOR OVER A YEAR if what is being reported is true. I'd be getting kind of annoyed by now, honestly. 10 is certainly not old for level 6, but it isn't excessively young either. It's not really a reason to hold the kid back in my opinion. It might be different if we were talking about 10 years old and holding her back another year in level 8. But these coaches aren't even saying she needs to be held back another school year, since clearly that isn't true. They are saying they want her to compete additional level 6 meets first, reportedly because "they need her scores."

I mean is it the worst thing I've read on here, not by far. Hey, by those standards they're blessed. I think the OP has been quite respectful of the coaches and isn't really saying she has a problem overall, just the additional stress and cost of the meets seems unnecessary, plus the aspect of needing to repeatedly run compulsory routines for them AGAIN. I think those concerns are extremely valid, and I fully suggest a respectful conversation with whoever is in charge about their financial limits for the seasons. I could overlook the annoyance at having to do the compulsory routines again, etc. The end is in sight. It's not really my style, but so be it in the grand scheme of things. The main thing is stress and cost of the meets, to my thinking.

 

[MaryA]

Not really. I guess maybe because we've always stressed to our daughter to focus on what skills she has improved upon at each meet, not what her scores are. I've been happy when she has met her own goals, score-wise but to me it's not the only thing that matters (especially when judging can be so varied at these meets).

Yes, how would you even know how your daughter stacked up against other level 6's in the country? You don't have to spend very long on CB or in the sport of gymnastics to know that judging varies from state to state, meet to meet, and even judge to judge. The only way to have a meaningful comparison would be if there was a level 6 nationals. And there's not. And there's not because how you do at level 6 is just not that important in the grand scheme of things. Not that I'm downplaying the OP's daughter's phenomenal season. She did have a phenomenal level 6 season. Now it's time for bigger and better things.

 

[NewtoGym]

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Would your opinion be swayed if your daughter had a chance to distinguish herself by posting...oh say the 6th highest, level six score in the country.

To me this is such a ridiculous argument that if a coach made it to me to sway me for my dd to repeat a level that she already EXCELLED in, I would reconsider if I was at the right gym. I have had my DD's vault score be on mymeetscores in the top 100 of the country as a level 4. What did that mean to me, my family, our gym, or my dd? NOTHING! It is pointless and really, who cares? Being in the top 10 of the L6s in the country is more so of an ego boost, but it is just that. An ego boost. The gymnast has already done amazing at L6 (which is already a very difficult level to score well in). What does it mean to go from scoring a 37+ to a 38? What if her scores go down? This seems like a really silly argument.

And on the flip side, who hasn't been to a meet where you are so excited for your dd to score her personal best, let's say a 35. Then a second year "ringer" comes and wins with a 38+. I can tell you what one dad at our gym yells out (yes, maybe a bit obnoxiously, but certainly with a bit of truth) "Move her up!"

 

[NewtoGym]

My daughter has a teammate who is a state champion who will likely be repeating Level 3 (in the fall at least) because she is missing a skill. This gymnast is a state champion in the 38 club (whose best AA score is 0.20 higher than my daughter's best) and will likely repeat. Scores and championships are not necessarily relevant for move-ups.

In my opinion repeating L3 is the biggest waste of time I have ever heard of!

 

[JBS]

I stated this earlier...

How hard are we trying to WIN at each of the various levels...that's the real question. If you want our entire philosophy...come join our team.

Our JO team philosophy is not written...it is discussed at the bar. I will try to sum it up...

• Our team comes before the individual due to the fact that one individual can disrupt the entire team. If this is taking place we will remove the one to make sure our other team individuals are getting what they deserve.
• Our team goal is to get back to where we were at one time...crankin' at L10...not L4...not L6.
• Since our team goal is to produce a L10 team...all gymnasts are always in training for L10...not the next level up. L4 are training for L10...so are L5...L6...L7...etc. The gymnasts know this...from the very beginning.
• We are trying to win L10...not L4...however...we believe competing as a team is fun...so we will group gymnasts at various other levels if they have a good shot at doing well.
• Our progressions are derived from elite level gymnastics (we are not an elite club though) because we do not believe that the USAG compulsory system is progressive in the way that our club needs it to be.
• We believe that a gymnast gains confidence from success...but we do not believe that they need to have success at every level. Doing one meet at a level in order to gain mobility to a higher level were they can be successful is a great thing.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something that will come up...but we are basically a L10 progressive club. We are trying to win the L10 team competition at the State level. We progress each individual gymnast towards our team goal of being part of our L10 team.

We are now making a calculated move to improve at the compulsory levels (not win)...just be nicely competitive. We want a large base to build our L10 team from. We were having some issues with low level gymnasts leaving for clubs that are more successful at lower levels. We have decided that this will happen (improvement at compulsory levels) by being more careful in how we are placing our gymnasts in the levels...it will not happen by doing more routines at their current level as we must not stray below our 50% uptraining time as we have that L10 goal.

Now the above is just they way we are trying to do it...other gyms view team differently.

We also have an Xcel team that runs under a team driven philosophy of "fun competitive gymnastics" for those that do not like our team that runs under the "win L10 team" philosophy.

One other thing...we have never run a State champ at the same level again...but I agree that it is relative title...there are cases where this may be needed.

 

[JBS]

Oh...I forgot...we do not stop at state. We love to see our individual gymnasts on the regional team at nationals.