Scoring out of levels- a conundrum

[cbone]

Since I joined Chalk Bucket, I've learned that focussing on scores is the wrong way to go. I've embraced this mentality and have steered my daughter away from getting hung up on setting score-related goals. She's embraced that idea, focussing instead on implementing corrections her coach has given her in competition. I appreciate this excellent advice from forum members.

I'm stuck trying to reconcile something, though. In my reading here and elsewhere, I have seen the majority of the gymnastics community saying, "Trust your coach; they know what's best for their gymnast." If we're not focussing on scores and trusting a coach to teach skills that our kids are ready for, where does this idea of "scoring out of a level" come from?!? It seems to fly in the face if everything that people say. Help me understand.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

actually, real gymnastic coaches consider mobility of their athletes as it relates to their gymnastics development. NOT SCORES. real coaches move their kids up when they know they can handle the rigors and requirements of the next level. again, this has nothing to do with scores.

scoring out of a level is kind of a joke when 1 kid moves up with a 32 and the other with a 36. and the irony is that it is more likely than not that the 32 will then be outscoring the 36 at level 9. LOL.

 

[cbone]

Dunno, where does this come from? If a coach sets up a requirement to score out, can't they just remove the requirement if a child is ready? This is a coach driven requirement, right?

 

[maryRS]

I am pretty sure scoring out a level is USAG rule not coach driven. Granted, a gym can have their own criteria which of course would make it coach driven, but I think when most people talk about scoring out of a level, they are talking about scoring out for USAG purposes, in order to move on.

Gosh, I feel so smart today

Dunno, where does this come from? If a coach sets up a requirement to score out, can't they just remove the requirement if a child is ready? This is a coach driven requirement, right?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

that's right, MaryRS. USAG has minimum proficiency scores in order to move to the next level. but then some gyms add 2-6 points above that to move on. i've never seen the point in that. some of your worst compulsory gymnasts are now vying for a spot on the next Olymic team. LOL.

 

[justanothergymmom]

cbone, what level are you talking about "scoring out" of?

I don't think focusing on scores and scoring out of a level have anything to do with eachother...maybe I am misunderstanding the question...

 

[cbone]

I am pretty sure scoring out a level is USAG rule not coach driven. Granted, a gym can have their own criteria which of course would make it coach driven, but I think when most people talk about scoring out of a level, they are talking about scoring out for USAG purposes, in order to move on.

Gosh, I feel so smart today

Thanks! I guess I got off-track because I read another post, where a member said "our coach requires..." and then I made a bad assumption that coaches did this. I just found a great summary on the USAG website that details all of that and more; I wish I had found that months ago. The required scores seem low enough that the impact of regional judging tendencies would be minimal. In fact, the required scores seem low enough that a gymnast could meet the minimum score and be completely unprepared to move up due to lacking critical skills. I guess that's where coach judgment comes in.

 

[2gymmies]

At the compulsory levels the USAG required score is not high (lower than what is needed to qualify to state, in most cases), but it is a process that many go through - when the gymnast is truly ready to "skip" a level by scoring out, it is usually very easy with only minimal prep time. For example, my dd scored out of Level 6 to go onto 7 a couple years ago and they learned they were going to do their score out meet, put the routines together and competed within 12 or 13 days. She scored almost a 36 (with a fall on her squat on of all things). A 31 was all that was required. It depends so much on the gymnast and the training program. The coaches just know when a kid can make that leap.

 

[cbone]

cbone, what level are you talking about "scoring out" of?

I don't think focusing on scores and scoring out of a level have anything to do with eachother...maybe I am misunderstanding the question...

It's a basic question. I'm just educating myself on how the system works. My daughter is a Level 3 training Level 4, so it doesn't apply yet. I'm just new and learning.

 

[gymgal]

Honestly, I think gyms put the required scores in place to create a hard line so they don't have to deal with the parents. If a girl doesn't get a 36 got whatever the # is), she doesn't move up. They figure that if you're getting that score, you have mastered the skills in that level. But in my opinion, its not a good policy. There are too many "what ifs" - great on 3 events, horrible on one can still get you a 36; not a good compulsory gymnast but good potential for optionals; not a good competitor at meets but has the skills in the gym.

As dunno stated, decisions really need to be individually based.

 

[gymgal]

At the compulsory levels the USAG required score is not high (lower than what is needed to qualify to state, in most cases), but it is a process that many go through - when the gymnast is truly ready to "skip" a level by scoring out, it is usually very easy with only minimal prep time. For example, my dd scored out of Level 6 to go onto 7 a couple years ago and they learned they were going to do their score out meet, put the routines together and competed within 12 or 13 days. She scored almost a 36 (with a fall on her squat on of all things). A 31 was all that was required. It depends so much on the gymnast and the training program. The coaches just know when a kid can make that leap.

I got the impression the OP was talking about scores to move up to the next level and not repeat it the following year: ex. When a gym has a move up score of 36. But what you said about scoring (or testing) out of a level to skip competing that level for a whole season is true. Coaches generally know when a particular child can handle the skip.


Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

 

[GymBee97]

USAG has the "minimum score out" requirements. so if a coach wants someone to skip a level or whatever they have to meet that minimum requirement set by USAG to do that. the requirement I think is very low that just about any gymnast who has been competing and has qualified for sectionals and states should have no trouble scoring out.

Some gyms too have some standards that are their own requirements and from what I've seen it usually is something like if you made it to states and have the USAG score to move up. Even with that each kid is different and at the L4 - 6 may not get the scores but may still be a good gymnast and ready to move up. There are guidelines and rules even the coaches and gyms have to follow.

 

[wallinbl]

"scoring out of a level" is basically skipping a level by showing up at one meet and obtaining the USAG required mobility score. You can't go straight from L4 to L6 without a qualifying L5 score. Many gyms will just bring a judge into the gym for an in house mobility meet. Around here, that's common for scoring out of L6, because most gyms around here do L3-L4-L5-Prep Op-L7-etc, and don't actually compete L6.

 

[skschlag]

This kinda makes me like the boys' system even more. At first, I thought "move-ups" seemed random, but at least at our gym, they are based on whether the kiddo is ready or not. It is interesting to hear how the girls do it!

 

[lhmom]

That's been my understanding as well. If the coach is wanting a gymnast to move on up in levels, the gymnast has to make a minimum qualifying score for level 5 and above (and meet the age requirement for level 5 and up). That's how you can see 7 and 8 yr olds competing on the optional levels. DD's gym is preparing to score out level 6 for the girls who competed Prep-Op Platinum this past season as well as for 2 others who competed level 5 and are more than ready to move on to optionals (pick up skills very quickly).

 

[GymBee97]

This kinda makes me like the boys' system even more. At first, I thought "move-ups" seemed random, but at least at our gym, they are based on whether the kiddo is ready or not. It is interesting to hear how the girls do it!

Well the girls are the same they too are based on if the kids are ready or not but sometimes you have a gymnast that is ready to skip a level and move on so you "score out" of that level because you are ready for the next one. My son was a gymnast when he was young until he was a Jr in HS and I know there were scores they had to have to move to the next level - don't know it they were USAG or just gym imposed but I had the feeling it was a bit of both too. The mobility scores in general aren't that high so most kids who do a year at the compulsory levels usualy have the scores to move up but the gym may require some thing else.

 

[gymgal]

One more thought, cbone. When people say not to focus on scores, they are generally saying "don't oversee over them". And never compare one meet's scores to another. But looking at scores across an entire season can be helpful. Did they go up, down, stay the same? Change of only a few 10ths isn't telling much as it can be simple judging differences but a girl who goes from a 34 to a 36 during the season says a lot about improvement.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

 

[Granny Smith]

I just want to give a short story, now to me this is on topic so bare with me.

In regards to move up, scores are not everything - period! Just because you can do the skills and also you can get good, competitive scores does not mean you will or should move up! My dd is a prime example of that. There is more to the equation and that is where the coach's expertise comes into play. It's not always about the hard data that we parents can see and that is why parents never really understand the whole picture. This is also the part where the "blind faith" comes in with the coach.

My story speaks more to the optional level, but I guess it would can also pertain to the compulsory too. My dd competed level 8 a few years back, she had a decent season, won some events, hit well above the required score to move up. The coach told me that she was going to do 8 again. I was not happy, she had the skills to move to 9, she was basically at the same point that the girls who were going to do 1st yr 9 were at, why was she doing 8 again? What was worse was that I had other parents asking why was she doing 8 again - I had no idea. So when the season started, I watched my dd start to compete 8 again. Oh, let me also add that this 2nd season of 8 was right after the code change, so she actually had to take stuff out of her routines to mee the new "dinged down" 8 requirements... She was tearing up the place, she was winning with ease, even with falls.

The difference was what I saw... My child wasn't this "deer in headlights" kid at meets! Her nerves were more settled. She was the leader on the team, being the seasoned 8 and she was gaining something that can't be taught or bought - CONFIDENCE! If she fell, she brushed it off and learned that if you fall you aren't out of the game! This is way different than compulsories, you basically can't fall in compulsories and still come out on top - in optionals, you can! She was heading through this wonderful season and no doubt was going to make Regionals.... well, she learned something else this season - injury! She broke her foot and suffered a Jones fracture which is way different than a normal break, it took 16 weeks to heal! No States, No Regionals, no nothing! What she gained was inner strength and perservance, she came to the gym every single day. She worked on her own and watched her teammates prepare for States and Regionals and knew that this was her year and it was not going to happen!

Finally released in May and started back on the road to "real" training and getting ready for 9. Honestly, she was doing so well that you would of never knew she was out 4 months. Never suffered another problem with the foot and was doing things well beyond what she was doing by mid-summer and not looking back. 9 season rolled along. It had it's ups and downs, not consistent at all, but honestly who is their 1st yr of 9. She was definitely holding her own against her teammates, who many were repeating from the year before. She placed 5th at States, 2nd at Regionals and qualified to Easterns. It was a GREAT year! A kid with this resume would definitely move up to 10 next season, right?

NOPE! She is doing another year of 9.... Well, I didn't mention that she competed at Easterns with a bad elbow that required surgery and the surgery happened a month after Easterns. She really didn't get to train a 100% over the summer, but boy did she still want 10... and bad too! Again with the blind faith, HC said she would do 9! Now this was like the 2nd yr of 8 because she was physically ready to do 10, she was basically in the same place as the 1st yr 10s this yr, but her she was doing 9 again. At one point the HC and I talked and she told me what she would be willing to let my dd do skill-wise to make her a 10. Well, once she told me I looked at HC and said honestly that would make her a rockin' 9 and very competitive at Easterns (if my the grace of God she would be able to make it back.)

As a 2nd yr 9, my dd has won every single meet she has gone to, with the exception of 1 (it turned out to truly be a vacation for her, ha-ha) and that includes States. Even on her worst day, at the 1 meet she didn't win, she fell twice, got a 7 something on an event and still placed 4th AA - ya know, you can't win them all! My dd is still doing the same skills she would if she were a 10, but again she is gaining confidence and I still have blind faith in her coaches (I'm not saying it easy to do, it's hard for me, but I do pay them a lot and trust their expertise.)

Oh and now that my dd is actually one of the "older" girls in the gym. I can say now looking back that all the kiddos that skipped levels and got "ahead" of my dd back in the day are all now her teammates. They all end in the same spot. Now this part of the story in probably not on topic, but one thing you can never account for is injury and with gymnastics it's not if it will happen, it's when. All you can do is hope and pray that it doesn't end their season or even worse career. Dd's last injury happened at a great time. Could it have changed her results at Easterns last year if she was hurt, maybe, but she was still able to compete and she took care of it after the season was over.

I guess the moral of my story is: Scores really do mean nothing... They are just a small part of the equation. A really good coach will see the whole picture and sometimes the best thing for a child is to repeat a level. When a child is told to repeat a level the hardest part is for the parent and/or child to swallow their ego and have blind faith in their coach/coaches. There is a method to their madness... I've learend this from experience! Ok, I'm done my novel now...

 

[jsfofec]

At our gym they don't have anybody score out to move up. What they do is if they have their needed skills and are ready is skip level 4 and go straight to level 5.

They do believe in competing level 6 and that's because scoring is much different between 5 and 6, and they want the gymnasts to learn to handle the harsher scoring. Also they believe that it's very important to have meet experience, meaning learning how to deal with different start times, different judges scoring, long meets versus short meets, using different equipment, starting on different events...basically just learning how to compete.

The 6's who are ready to go 7, will do a double season. So they compete Level 6 September-November then go right to Level 7 in January.

 

[thefellowsmom]

Honestly, I think gyms put the required scores in place to create a hard line so they don't have to deal with the parents. If a girl doesn't get a 36 got whatever the # is), she doesn't move up. They figure that if you're getting that score, you have mastered the skills in that level. But in my opinion, its not a good policy. There are too many "what ifs" - great on 3 events, horrible on one can still get you a 36; not a good compulsory gymnast but good potential for optionals; not a good competitor at meets but has the skills in the gym.

As dunno stated, decisions really need to be individually based.

Our coach jokes that it would be so much easier on him if he could just set a score for move ups. That way all the parent's wouldn't always be frustrated with him and asking when their kid is going to move up. But, he also says that each girl is different and has different needs. Some will move quickly early on and more slowly later and some will move slowly early on and more quickly later.

He has also made it really clear that we are to no longer focus on levels at all. The girls are working the skills they are ready for and will compete where they think they can be successful and gain the experience that individual girl needs, whether it is pushing them forward or gaining confidence or whatever.

An example. We had a girl who did three years at level 4. While she had much higher skills and continued to work them, she was so nervous at competition that she just couldn't keep it together. Well, she finally has worked the nerves issues out, had a great season and now may even compete 7 next year.

It's been interesting to watch the changes in the gym. This is the third year our coach has been with us. Our gym used to be really low key, low hours, low expectations. Now we are heading toward being a large competitive program with the ability for girls to maximize their gymnastics potential. The changes have been incremental, every year becoming a little tougher and a little more structured, small changes. This year seems to be the jumping off point. The new way of things was made very clear.

It has been tough on a lot of the parents to adjust to these changes. They are used to having more flexibility and they want to know what is happening and they want to see their kids moving up. Parents crave predictability. I am glad they have started communicating more of the philosophy and that we are finally moving fully to the way he wants things to run long term. There will probably be kids that leave because they can't handle the evolution, but our gymnasts and our team will be stronger in the long run. I'm excited!