Women USAG TOPs 2000 note to gymnasts

[BachFlyer]

Kecks, I agree so much. a culture of encourged obedience is a huge part of the problem. It's not only in gymnastics, of course, but it's prevalent in our sport. It was a recipe for disaster for elite girls especially because the couldn't risk their goals just to have a voice. That upsets me to no end.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't think it should have been any male, no matter how upstanding he might have appeared. There should have been female chaperones as the front-line support for the girls in the hotel.

or female. even though the statistics available are much lower. we do have females on our banned list. it's quite the conundrum for all.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't think it should have been any male, no matter how upstanding he might have appeared. There should have been female chaperones as the front-line support for the girls in the hotel.

there was.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't care if he's the freakin' Pope, there shouldn't even have been an OPTION for the girls to call him or any other male directly, I hope you agree with this. It's not prudent no matter how upstanding the person seems, most (all?) other organizations working with kids understand this. Just because nothing happened (that we know of) doesn't make it right. Perhaps you know more of what happened behind the scenes that most of us don't know (as in "disregard what the letter says, here's who you should really contact"), but man that letter taken at face value is just bad optics.

FWIW, I also agree with asking the kids not to contact their coach. There should be a single point of contact (female) for each girl in case they need help, this is for clarity so the girls don't have to decide whom to call and for accountability. This person should then be responsible for coordinating further help if needed.

i do agree. and the coaches 'took care of' who they should call.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I didn't say that the potential plaintiffs would be from that time specifically, I meant that the memo is validation as every piece of information that comes out is validation for those that were abused, and perhaps reading this gives someone that extra push or awareness to say, "what happened to me was not right and I am not going to be silent about it." Why do you think the floodgates opened after the Indy report and since? Because there was a recognition for some at that point. There is power in knowing there were others. There is power in knowing that you're not crazy. Perhaps you know who exactly was on those trips and based on that you might be pretty sure nothing happened to them, so I will take that as fact, and say a hallelujah. But it doesn't mean that this couldn't be relevant to somone else deciding to come forward who hasn't already. Remember not all of his victims were elite gymnasts. I also didn't say that the kids weren't believe by USAG or anyone in particular; I was more referring to their experience of dealing with a lot of folks in and around the gym community who were dead set on defending him for a long time after the charges. There were and are a ton of hurtful comments out there that lean towards victim/parent blaming, all the armchair quarterbacks out there who think THEY wouldn't have let it happen to their child because they have all the answers in child safety are right up that alley.

It was a terrible idea to have him as a point of contact. We all can learn something specific from this particular piece of information.

And I won't agree that USAG has no culpability and knew nothing, and it's all on MSU. They could have alerted MSU in 2015 when they fired him, to start. USAG had (has?) an isolationist, imbalanced system in place that has created a situation where girls aren't empoweee to have voices and are agarics of coming forward. This is not the only case of sexual or other abuse in all of gymnastics ever and their handling of other allegations is part of the problem as I (and others) see it. The response to the public since Nassar has be less than swift and less than satisfactory in my opinion and the opinion of many. It's been a lot of defending and less acknowledging. I know some of that is due to pending litigation and only being able to say so much, I get that. But somehow this went on for years and years and years. There are contributing factors, and a culture and policy shift is in order, starting at the top and right on down to a good number of local clubs. I certainly hope that people at the top are "scratching their heads" really, really hard.

there are several things i would like to point out...but i can't. i'm telling you all...USA Gymnastics knew nothing until they learned it. alerting MSU would have been a waste...the FBI was contacted. that day. and nobody is scratching their heads...more like slamming our hands against our foreheads.
and you're right on the non response. they can't. the judge has ordered all to shut their mouth. plain and simple.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Kecks, I agree so much. a culture of encourged obedience is a huge part of the problem. It's not only in gymnastics, of course, but it's prevalent in our sport. It was a recipe for disaster for elite girls especially because the couldn't risk their goals just to have a voice. That upsets me to no end.

yes. this seems to have been a problem for some of the athletes.

 

[BachFlyer]

there are several things i would like to point out...but i can't. i'm telling you all...USA Gymnastics knew nothing until they learned it. alerting MSU would have been a waste....

Not to the girls whom were victimized after that date.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

no girls were victimized after the girls reported to Rhonda who reported to Steve who reported to the FBI. he was removed immediately pending an investigation. and there was already an investigation taking place when Steve contacted the FBI. and this investigation was not being conducted by USA Gymnastics. get it? i hope were saying the same thing.

 

[2Wally]

no girls were victimized after the girls reported to Rhonda who reported to Steve who reported to the FBI. he was removed immediately pending an investigation. and there was already an investigation taking place when Steve contacted the FBI. and this investigation was not being conducted by USA Gymnastics. get it? i hope were saying the same thing.

no girls were victimized after the girls reported to Rhonda who reported to Steve who reported to the FBI. he was removed immediately pending an investigation. and there was already an investigation taking place when Steve contacted the FBI. and this investigation was not being conducted by USA Gymnastics. get it? i hope were saying the same thing.

No - you are not saying the same thing! There were girls who were victims after July 2015 bc USAG didn't let MSU know the REAL reason why Larry Nassar was relieved of his duties from USAG! Maybe his dismissal kept any additional elite athletes from being sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar, but it didn't keep anyone else safe from this predator who walked through his office door.

 

[BachFlyer]

no girls were victimized after the girls reported to Rhonda who reported to Steve who reported to the FBI. he was removed immediately pending an investigation. and there was already an investigation taking place when Steve contacted the FBI. and this investigation was not being conducted by USA Gymnastics. get it? i hope were saying the same thing.

FALSE. I know this to be completely false. There most certainly was an issue after his firing from USAG and before the Indy Star reports that got him fired from MSU. USAG should have alerted MSU and those instances of abuse might not have happened. They KNEW full well he was treating kids at the clinic and he was a danger. There is an oversight and a lack of common sense there that can be denied to kingdom-come, but won't change this fact. This is proof for me that you do NOT have all of the inside information that you think you do.

i hope everyone understands that Nasser was a child pornographer first and foremost. he infiltrated our sport. everything else he did was to feed his sickness and then "buy, sell, or trade" what he had on the "dark net". he is being sentenced for child pornography. make sense?

First, the earliest allegations of sexual assault so far pre-date the earliest allegations of pornography, so your comment is off base. Second, there are reasons he was able to become ingrained as a trusted figure in the sport, and those root causes need to be substantially addressed...that is the whole point...why in all of your wisdom and proximity to the situation is this question not first and foremost to the discussion? How did he "infiltrate" so easily, so readily? Does USAG have, in your opinion, any ounce of responsibility? If not actually legally, than at least on their conscience?

Third, and most importantly nope, I don't get it and nope that makes no sense at all. Your statement is one of the worst deflections I've seen to date; especially considering that we at CB know you as someone close to USAG and therefore someone who should be listened to. He was both a child pornographer AND a child abuser - and to say that one is "first and foremost" is ignorant and offensive. Do you purport to be in Nassar's mind? Do you personally know for a FACT when he abused his first victim or when watched/record/shared his first video, and if the porn chicken came before the abuse egg? Does that really even matter? Both things happened. It would be astounding for you to be sure of this, especially since your comments are all about how USAG knew nothing, nothing, nothing at all. It is appalling that you would use your position of prominence in CB to conjecture about his motive as fact, and to claim you know everything, in order to sway opinions in favor of USAG. He is being sentenced for the porn now because of the timing in which that evidence came to light, and as I understand it a much less complicated case because it doesn't cross a bunch of jurisdictions, and it was pretty clear cut that the material was in his possession and also that he tried to destroy the evidence. Which is why he pled guilty to the charges. The other charges aren't going away. If anything, I suspect there will be more to go around.

 

[BachFlyer]

One last point: MSU bears a ton of responsibility, too. But just because they do, does not mean that USAG does not.

In the end, Nassar is at fault and you can't stop every abuser, that is a fact. But those in authority can choose to pay attention, to not ignore big red flags, use common sense and judgement, put the victims ahead of covering your own arse, goals and wallet, and use your position to make changes and help make things better in the future.

 

[raenndrops]

FALSE. I know this to be completely false. There most certainly was an issue after his firing from USAG and before the Indy Star reports that got him fired from MSU. USAG should have alerted MSU and those instances of abuse might not have happened. They KNEW full well he was treating kids at the clinic and he was a danger. There is an oversight and a lack of common sense there that can be denied to kingdom-come, but won't change this fact. This is proof for me that you do NOT have all of the inside information that you think you do.

But MSU had allegations that were "dismissed" or "disappeared" even before USAG knew anything (2000, 2002) … and USAG was not notified! MSU told him to stop a specific "treatment" and to have staff present. He didn't follow directions and STILL wasn't fired.
FBI was investigating BEFORE the USAG reported him (before USAG knew there was anything to report)… so SOMEBODY somewhere DID report him sooner. Maybe MSU?

 

[BachFlyer]

^^Yes that is true, which is why MSU is, and should be, facing a lawsuit as well. I'm addressing USAGs culpability just because of how this thread started. By no means do I think MSU didn't also drop the ball in a significant way. Both dropped the ball, both didn't err on the side of caution and on the side of the victims. But the FBI was not investigating prior to USAG turning him in, that is not true. Also, MSU putting stipulations in place didn't matter or have any effect because no one in his office was informed of the guidelines except Nassar and the man that wrote out the guidelines. It was not officially put in place and therefore was completely and totally ineffective. So yes, MSU is also responsible. But that does not absolve USAG.

I don't buy it (until it's proven, anyway) that USAG had no knowledge or at least any suspicions, anyway. That's not what some of the victims are alluding to, and based on the fact that they are being sued by several athletes. I guess we'll see as time goes on, but this idea that their hands are all squeaky clean doesn't add up when you look at the bigger picture.

 

[notthatmom]

^^Yes that is true, which is why MSU is, and should be, facing a lawsuit as well. I'm addressing USAGs culpability just because of how this thread started. By no means do I think MSU didn't also drop the ball in a significant way. Both dropped the ball, both didn't err on the side of caution and on the side of the victims. But the FBI was not investigating prior to USAG turning him in, that is not true. Also, MSU putting stipulations in place didn't matter or have any effect because no one in his office was informed of the guidelines except Nassar and the man that wrote out the guidelines. It was not officially put in place and therefore was completely and totally ineffective. So yes, MSU is also responsible. But that does not absolve USAG.

I don't buy it (until it's proven, anyway) that USAG had no knowledge or at least any suspicions, anyway. That's not what some of the victims are alluding to, and based on the fact that they are being sued by several athletes. I guess we'll see as time goes on, but this idea that their hands are all squeaky clean doesn't add up when you look at the bigger picture.

I'm 98% positive there are things they knew. But unfortunately what I think, or what I know doesn't really matter.
It's a big ****storm to clean up, but I hope they do it quick, and I hope they do it right.

I really just hope that out all of this mess, current and future gymnasts, as well as their parents can rest assured that going forward this sport truly is safe, that the athletes come first, that their safety is the MOST important thing and absolutely everything else comes second to that.

 

[z2akids]

By the late 90s (maybe earlier, but I wasn't involved earlier), the Boy Scouts had 2 deep leadership in place. Separate bathing facilities for male and female, no adult at all allowed in a bathroom meant for minors or in tents, etc. for minors unless they are related. Adults never alone with a child. Around that same time, the Catholic Church also made significant changes to policies that require open doors if a minor has to be alone with an adult, along with rules meant to minimize that potential. All adults working around minors have to have background checks, fingerprints and attend a seminar about abuse.

These changes and more with many other orgsnizations were in response to abuse in those organizations or others like them. Many organizations that work with children put similar rules into place in that same timeframe. It is terrible that children are abused in any place that should be safe. But, in the late 90s and very early 2000s, MANY groups were putting rules into place to improve child safety. The fact that the USAG failed to take these terrible tragedies in other groups into account to make changes is inexcusable. Pedophiles will always find ways to gain access to children. But, we as parents, and the people to whom we entrut our childreb should be doing everything possible to minimize that possibility.

Will a child ever again be abused by a minister, priest, Scout leader or teacher? Unfortunately yes. But, 20ish years of improved policies has decreased that possibility while USAG has contibued to fail to add protections to children.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Not to the girls whom were victimized after that date.

there were no USAG athletes victimized after Rhonda notified Steve notified the FBI.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

No - you are not saying the same thing! There were girls who were victims after July 2015 bc USAG didn't let MSU know the REAL reason why Larry Nassar was relieved of his duties from USAG! Maybe his dismissal kept any additional elite athletes from being sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar, but it didn't keep anyone else safe from this predator who walked through his office door.

it was done at his home. Steve was not allowed to open his mouth. Nasser knew...he only worked at home at that point. i regret i know what the facts are. he had already been suspended by MSU.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

FALSE. I know this to be completely false. There most certainly was an issue after his firing from USAG and before the Indy Star reports that got him fired from MSU. USAG should have alerted MSU and those instances of abuse might not have happened. They KNEW full well he was treating kids at the clinic and he was a danger. There is an oversight and a lack of common sense there that can be denied to kingdom-come, but won't change this fact. This is proof for me that you do NOT have all of the inside information that you think you do.



First, the earliest allegations of sexual assault so far pre-date the earliest allegations of pornography, so your comment is off base. Second, there are reasons he was able to become ingrained as a trusted figure in the sport, and those root causes need to be substantially addressed...that is the whole point...why in all of your wisdom and proximity to the situation is this question not first and foremost to the discussion? How did he "infiltrate" so easily, so readily? Does USAG have, in your opinion, any ounce of responsibility? If not actually legally, than at least on their conscience?

Third, and most importantly nope, I don't get it and nope that makes no sense at all. Your statement is one of the worst deflections I've seen to date; especially considering that we at CB know you as someone close to USAG and therefore someone who should be listened to. He was both a child pornographer AND a child abuser - and to say that one is "first and foremost" is ignorant and offensive. Do you purport to be in Nassar's mind? Do you personally know for a FACT when he abused his first victim or when watched/record/shared his first video, and if the porn chicken came before the abuse egg? Does that really even matter? Both things happened. It would be astounding for you to be sure of this, especially since your comments are all about how USAG knew nothing, nothing, nothing at all. It is appalling that you would use your position of prominence in CB to conjecture about his motive as fact, and to claim you know everything, in order to sway opinions in favor of USAG. He is being sentenced for the porn now because of the timing in which that evidence came to light, and as I understand it a much less complicated case because it doesn't cross a bunch of jurisdictions, and it was pretty clear cut that the material was in his possession and also that he tried to destroy the evidence. Which is why he pled guilty to the charges. The other charges aren't going away. If anything, I suspect there will be more to go around.

this is what the "5 weeks" is about. i do know the facts. his child pornography pre-dates all of this by many years. i am not favoring USAG. you're assuming that the material they found was current. it was not. wrong...he was under investigation well before this all broke loose. as i said, everything is not what it appears AND the papers aren't even close as to what took place. please don't shoot the messenger. this messenger is veiled and trying to open all of your eyes. this is not about a Doctor who sexually assaulted gymnasts.
this is about a Doctor who was a child pornographer who sexually assaulted females from different sports. softball to name one. he was an equal opportunity pornographer. there were athletes from other sports dating back many years. no one knew it... same as Sharp, Gustafson. Penev, etc; he was charged and plead to "selling, trading, purchasing". he had more than a GoPro. he was on the "dark net". how else would the Feds know he was involved with child porn. you think they found that out by simply asking him? do you all think that the FEDS actually needed what they found in his possession? what they did find completed the circle. when Steve notified the FEDS do you think HE told them that Nasser was a child pornographer? and do you think the FEDS were going to tell him what they already knew?? it did cross a bunch of jurisdictions. please research 'dark net' and 'pedogate'.

nobody knew about any of this...except Jarod from Subway, Gustafson, Adams, Sharp, and several others who i'm confident will be revealed in the months to come. one of the above is already dead. the other 3 in federal prison for child porn. may they rot there. i know what i'm talking about...please don't argue on this with conjecture, narrative or anything the papers have to say. have you all seen the photo taken of someone at Championships coming over the bar on a Tkatchev? the one the OC Register purchased from photopornographer Rodriguez? of the thousands of action shots taken by several photographers he and they chose that one? can you all figure out where that photo landed all photo shopped? do you all think that her parents, USAG, coaches and gymnasts alike are interested in seeing a photo like that? if not...then for who? do any of you have ANY idea how many of the SAME EXACT POSITION shots have been taken in the past 10 years? have NONE of you taken notice? do you see these facsimile photos printed in the USAG or IG magazines? NO! have none of you noted or wondered WHY that is?

please folks, this is all not what you think this is all about. they are your neighbors...from all professions. THEY have infiltrated all walks of our lives. including gymnasts and swimmers from all over the world. including sex trafficking. the FEDS swoop in after charges have come from State or Local law enforcement. FEDS trump everyone. what do you think they're doing with their 'specialist' task forces. please talk to anyone that you know in law enforcement. bylaw 9 is a lot of stuff. but NOT child porn. i am begging you all to OPEN your eyes.

what happened to all these athletes over 25 years is gut wrenching and depressing. i don't like discussing it...except to point out to all of you what i know is really going on. this does not mean i'm not sympathetic to ALL the victims. i am. i'm a father, a grandfather and an uncle. you all think it's just gymnasts. you have no idea. and these people are making money off of our industry with filth. pure and unadulterated FILTH. what exactly do you all think Nasser was 'selling, trading and purchasing on the 'dark net'? photos of nude popsicles?? and do you think that he was 'selling, trading and purchasing' on Bing? Google? or any of the common search engines available to every household? PLEASE EVERYONE. put on your critical thinking caps and speak with someone you know in law enforcement.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

One last point: MSU bears a ton of responsibility, too. But just because they do, does not mean that USAG does not.

In the end, Nassar is at fault and you can't stop every abuser, that is a fact. But those in authority can choose to pay attention, to not ignore big red flags, use common sense and judgement, put the victims ahead of covering your own arse, goals and wallet, and use your position to make changes and help make things better in the future.

MSU will be on the hook comparably at 90% for puni's. i can tell you that all the other defendants will not come up with the other 10%. it's not financially possible even if they were to pool their money. why do you think USAG is fighting so hard? because their guilty? they are not.

and in case no one has been paying attention...there has been NO smoking gun. it's been 27 months. i believe that there won't be any at all. except for an athlete that has alleged that she told Klages. the problem is, unless you all think that alumni don't speak with each other, there is no one that has confirmed much of what has been alleged. BUT, the procedure is on record at MSU. many, many times. as well as the complaints.

and if it's true that the FBI "knew" and true that they stated "you could be charged with obstructing or interfering with a Federal investigation" to anyone then you will have to wait. THIS might be why Steve didn't notify MSU or anyone else for that matter. when he learned he called and then removed Nasser as the Team Doctor. holding him responsible for learning about something that he could not confirm either way was a legit procedure is wrong. but he decided right then and there that nothing of the sort was going to continue on his watch....for USAG athletes. at that point he didn't care who the hell Nasser was and what how much he meant to ANYONE. he's a dad. and happened to be the ED of USAG.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and do any of you think that the FEDS who went to a Federal Prosecutor who went to a Federal Judge to secure a warrant had only investigated him for a couple weeks, months, etc; and didn't have the prima facie they needed to secure that warrant "suspicion of child pornography" in the first place?
or do you all think the FEDS began investigating him AFTER Steve notified them?
he had a business. he satisfied his own deviate sickness as well as millions of others. your chicken and the egg argument does matter in a small way. we don't have to agree as you said as it doesn't really matter. he's a sick POS.
and i DO care that he made money from this. i want to know how much for my own edification. he did this at the expense and well being of many innocent athletes. the Feds know but i don't know for sure if they can quantify that.