Coaches Episode 3: I hate USAG boys compulsory vaults

[Geoffrey Taucer]

The USAG boys compulsory vaults are as follows:

Level 4: Straight jump from a springboard to a mat
Level 5: Front tuck from a springboard to a mat.
Level 6: Front handspring
Level 7: Yamashi ta (there isn't supposed to be a space there, but the swear filter on the forums doesn't like the correct spelling of Yama****a)

LEVEL 4: Straight jump
If you get a good run, a powerful hurdle, and a correctly positioned punch on the springboard, you leave the board with considerable rotation. In other words, a non-rotating skill such as a straight jump simply cannot be done with a proper vault entry.
The only way I am aware of to counter this rotation is to pull the chest back and push the hips forward (ie arch) while the feet are still in contact with the board, which is incorrect technique (and hurts my back to watch).

LEVEL 5: Front tuck
I understand where the idea of this vault came from. It can be done with correct board technique -- but it doesn't encourage correct technique. And it does nothing to teach the heel drive that is, in my opinion, one of the most crucial things for a gymnast to learn leading up to....

LEVEL 6: Front handspring.
No objections, though I do think it would be nice if they wouldn't deduct for lack of arm circle or for overrotation on the landing.

LEVEL 7: Yamashi ta
I really really hate this vault. This is probably my least favorite of the entire progression, and is a very large part of the reason why I generally have my boys skip level 7 and just go from 6 to 8.
A Yammy is indeed much more challenging than a front handspring -- however, the thing that makes it challenging is killing your rotation. The laws of conservation of angular momentum say that once your hands leave the table, there is no way to decrease your rotation (assuming you're already in a more-or-less straight body position); also, by piking (ie decreasing your rotational radius), you will increase the speed of your rotation. In other words, if you do anything like a correct handspring entry and try to do a yammy out of it, you land on your face.
The only way to kill this rotation is to do so before the hands leave the table, which is absolutely the last thing I want any of my boys to spend time learning.
The thing they need to learn in order to prepare for upper-level vaults is to generate as much rotation as possible. Why on earth would they want to spend a season learning not to rotate?

 

[BlairBob]

I would have preferred what was considered at the same time of the new routines of:

L4-front tuck
L5-front layout
L6-front handspring

And just like what FutureStars is using, front handspring to stand on a mat stack or portapit behind a table instead of the Yami.

In fact, I'd almost like to not see the front tuck but I would much prefer 3/4 front layout to back on a mat stack instead of the front tuck. Yes, they could still do it by leaning over the board but it would look horrible (like many of the L4 vaults).

However, with the straight jump it makes at least one event that they can get a decent score if they are very new to gym (less than 1 year). I could get them at least one 9.0 score in the prior quad though the rest of their scores might have been 7's or 8's.

I like to see my boys work a nice floaty 3/4 layout to back before I have them actually work front tucks or front layouts.

I actually like them to work flysprings before the front layout, but it hasn't been a very successful process yet with my boys of cucrent. Past boys and girls, yes.

I will agree with you on the L4 vault. With the boys who can run faster and hurdle on the boards more powerfully, it is quite a trick getting them to maintain a straight-hollow body. I think the committee's focus was to just have them focus on a nice, clean straight body for aesthetics purpose.

I'd like to compete FutureStars but my boys are just too old right now. I'd need them to get started training heavy at about the age of 5 or 6 instead of not joining team till 8 or 9.

 

[CoachTodd]

Level 4: Same as the girls
Level 5: Handspring flatback over the table onto a stack of mats
Level 6: Front handspring over the table
Level 7: Any front handspring type vault they want to do. i.e. 1/2 on, 1/2 on 1/2 off etc.

From what I've seen, the front tuck not only teaches incorrect vaulting technique, it teaches incorrect tumbling since they are judged on an arm circle.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'd like to compete FutureStars but my boys are just too old right now. I'd need them to get started training heavy at about the age of 5 or 6 instead of not joining team till 8 or 9.

My boys don't currently compete future stars, and I'm skeptical of the system in general, but I LOVE the future stars vaulting progressions. I love the vaults used, and I especially love the rule that there are no landing deductions for overrotation. I think that's an excellent rule to apply to any compulsory vault that lands on the feet.

EDIT: from the other thread:

Here is the progression I would use:

1) Straight jump from one or two steps and a hurdle (noncompetitive -- train it only as long as is necessary for the kid to learn how to hurdle to a springboard)
2) Handstand flatback on resi WITH THE BOARD CLOSE, THE HEAD WATCHING THE HANDS, AND THE BODY SLIGHTLY ARCHED. If this is to be done as a competitive vault, there should be no deduction for a tight arch with the head out; rather, there should be a deduction if the preflight is too long/slow.
3) Handstand flatback over table to mats stacked at least 8" higher than the table (the higher the mats are stacked the better)
4) Front handspring to feet (over the table)
5) Front handspring to feet over the table onto a mat stack; the eventual goal being to do this to feet on mats stacked at least to table height.

So far I haven't really seen a need to have my guys work front layouts off a springboard as a vault progression, but definitely think it would not be a bad drill to use.

 

[BlairBob]

I do have 2 5yo that if I can get them into the team workout, maybe I get them into the FutureStars program. If.

I loved the program but it's so damn hard to get enough boys and to get kids in year round versus doing other crap in the off-season (when they need to be training).

 

[coachinkal]

Our vault progressons for levels are:

Level 3 - Handstand flatback to 60 cm stackmats (plus front salto for badge
test).
Level 4 - Handstand flatback to 90 cm stackmats or 100cm table vault (SV10).
Level 5 - Handstand flatback table vault 105cm or handspring to land (SV10)
Level 6 - Handspring 110cm table or 1/4 to 1/4 110 (sv10)
Level 7 - twisting vault min 180 in 1st or 2nd phase 9.5. or twisting vault. min 360 for sv10.

These progressions do seem to lead one onto the other quite well.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Ungh, the more I think about the USAG level 7 Yami, the more I hate it. Here is the description given in the boys rules:

The correctly performed Yama****a vault begins very much like a Handspring vault. After the repulsion from the hands, the gymnast’s body should leave the vaulting table in straight position. There should then be a very quick transition of the body from straight to piked position. This pike should be primarily a hip pike, but flexion of the torso to tighten the pike is allowed. The pike should be a minimum of 90° but may be as tight as the gymnast’s flexibility will allow. The gymnast should only show the pike momentarily and should quickly return to the straight body position during the earliest possible moment of the post-flight in order to properly prepare for the landing. One of the most common mistakes in the performance of the Yama****a Vault is an early piking action. Any piking in the pre-flight is a technical error and will be deducted.

The vault they are looking for is not physically possible. Period. If the vault begins like a front handspring, remaining extended until after the block, and then the gymnast decreases his rotational radius by piking, he will land on his face. The only way to kill the rotation (which is exactly what is necessary for this vault) is to do so before the hands leave the table. Ergo, it is physically impossible to perform this vault correctly as the men's program describes it.

And even if it WAS physically possible, why on earth would I want to spend time teaching my kids to kill their rotation on vault? I want them to learn to generate as much rotation as possible if they're going to learn vaults with a salto in the postflight.

I really like most of the level 7 routines, but I would honestly prefer to have boys compete another year at 6 and then skip to 8 JUST to avoid having to teach them this vault.

 

[CoachTodd]

Ungh, the more I think about the USAG level 7 Yami, the more I hate it. Here is the description given in the boys rules:



The vault they are looking for is not physically possible. Period. If the vault begins like a front handspring, remaining extended until after the block, and then the gymnast decreases his rotational radius by piking, he will land on his face. The only way to kill the rotation (which is exactly what is necessary for this vault) is to do so before the hands leave the table. Ergo, it is physically impossible to perform this vault correctly as the men's program describes it.

And even if it WAS physically possible, why on earth would I want to spend time teaching my kids to kill their rotation on vault? I want them to learn to generate as much rotation as possible if they're going to learn vaults with a salto in the postflight.

I really like most of the level 7 routines, but I would honestly prefer to have boys compete another year at 6 and then skip to 8 JUST to avoid having to teach them this vault.

The only way I can see to do the vault as described in the book is to pike from the bottom half up as if you were trying to do a back pike while flipping forward. I think this is where the original vault came from. I have no idea why i would want anyone to do this unless the just rotate way too fast to land a vault. If the do this, I'll take the step deduction and start working the front/front.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Which "direction" they pike shouldn't make a difference. Once their hands leave the table, their angular momentum is constant until they land; the only thing that will effect the speed of their rotation is their radius. Piking, no matter how you do it, will decrease the radius, causing them to rotate faster.

 

[CoachTodd]

From watching some videos on the yammi, the pike seems to occur at the exact same time of the block. I'm sure our judges would say it's the wrong time and take off for piking too soon.

I think I'll have one of my high school gymnasts do 1 handspring and 1 yammi and see what the judges say.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

From watching some videos on the yammi, the pike seems to occur at the exact same time of the block. I'm sure our judges would say it's the wrong time and take off for piking too soon.

I think I'll have one of my high school gymnasts do 1 handspring and 1 yammi and see what the judges say.

And in this context it makes sense; starting the pike as you block (ie while the hands are still in contact with the table) could decrease your rotation and make this skill doable. If this were what they wanted, it would at least be physically possible. Though still idiotic.