WAG Level 8 Vault Changes

[Jenny]

That video of sky gymnastics that is not level 3 she did a half on!

it is a tsuk prep

 

[raenndrops]

Yeah, I wish that when they changed the levels last, they had adopted an option (or requirement, if moving mats is too much of a pain) to do some sort of timer at L7.

I woulda been happy with RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off , RO, FF on – Repulsion ½ off , and RO, FF on – 1/1 twist off being available at L7 for a 10.0 SV.
I also think that the RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off at L8 should be worth more than 7.0 ... it is harder than a Handspring (9.0), so it should be worth at least a 9.1.
With the 1/2 off should be at least 9.2 at L8, and the 1/1 off should be at least 9.6.

 

[profmom]

I woulda been happy with RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off , RO, FF on – Repulsion ½ off , and RO, FF on – 1/1 twist off being available at L7 for a 10.0 SV.
I also think that the RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off at L8 should be worth more than 7.0 ... it is harder than a Handspring (9.0), so it should be worth at least a 9.1.
With the 1/2 off should be at least 9.2 at L8, and the 1/1 off should be at least 9.6.

Preach it, sister!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I woulda been happy with RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off , RO, FF on – Repulsion ½ off , and RO, FF on – 1/1 twist off being available at L7 for a 10.0 SV.
I also think that the RO, FF on – Repulsion (with flight to feet) off at L8 should be worth more than 7.0 ... it is harder than a Handspring (9.0), so it should be worth at least a 9.1.
With the 1/2 off should be at least 9.2 at L8, and the 1/1 off should be at least 9.6.

Here is the problem that I see.. Lets take a look at the handspring which is a handspring front timer, (yes you kids are all doing timers, unless they are twisting). They judge it a certain way and reward a certain technique, which absolutely does not correspond to a correct front handspring front timer!! Never has! So the handspring is being taught and judged to reward an incorrect timer.... Now do we want the same thing to happen with the chenko entry? or the Tsuk entry? What if (like the handspring) they decide they want a nice pretty fully extended high entry, and reward this entry? Next thing you will see is everyone doing incorrect entries to get scores.... This is happening already and has been going on for decades ...... The result will be the same, kids with high scoring front handspring never doing front handspring fronts because they can't. So while I would like to see a timer put into the code, I fear with almost certainty the judges would start rewarding what they perceive as the pretty vault instead of the effective vault.

 

[Jenny]

I would hope that the judging code would make it clear what to reward but yes I see your concern lol.

 

[Seeker]

Here is the problem that I see.. Lets take a look at the handspring which is a handspring front timer, (yes you kids are all doing timers, unless they are twisting). They judge it a certain way and reward a certain technique, which absolutely does not correspond to a correct front handspring front timer!! Never has! So the handspring is being taught and judged to reward an incorrect timer.... Now do we want the same thing to happen with the chenko entry? or the Tsuk entry? What if (like the handspring) they decide they want a nice pretty fully extended high entry, and reward this entry? Next thing you will see is everyone doing incorrect entries to get scores.... This is happening already and has been going on for decades ...... The result will be the same, kids with high scoring front handspring never doing front handspring fronts because they can't. So while I would like to see a timer put into the code, I fear with almost certainty the judges would start rewarding what they perceive as the pretty vault instead of the effective vault.

Thanks for that explanation...had never heard it that way before. It is very curious/interesting and now makes me wonder all kinds of "WHY's". Dd's HC told the optional girls about the new rule today. Not sure what the reaction was...

 

[wandrewsjr]

Here is the problem that I see.. Lets take a look at the handspring which is a handspring front timer, (yes you kids are all doing timers, unless they are twisting). They judge it a certain way and reward a certain technique, which absolutely does not correspond to a correct front handspring front timer!! Never has! So the handspring is being taught and judged to reward an incorrect timer.... Now do we want the same thing to happen with the chenko entry? or the Tsuk entry? What if (like the handspring) they decide they want a nice pretty fully extended high entry, and reward this entry? Next thing you will see is everyone doing incorrect entries to get scores.... This is happening already and has been going on for decades ...... The result will be the same, kids with high scoring front handspring never doing front handspring fronts because they can't. So while I would like to see a timer put into the code, I fear with almost certainty the judges would start rewarding what they perceive as the pretty vault instead of the effective vault.

Excellent explanation, coachp. Also a correctly done timer would land essentially on the back. So you would have vaults that land on the back on a mat stack competing against vaults landing on the feet, meaning those doing the timers would have no potential landing deductions while those doing handsprings would. (unless you made everyone compete a timer, which might work in an elite stream, but wouldn't be fair in our JO stream because some kids never get beyond, or have the desire to get beyond level 7/8 or ever move on to flipping vaults)

 

[flippin out]

Excellent explanation, coachp. Also a correctly done timer would land essentially on the back. So you would have vaults that land on the back on a mat stack competing against vaults landing on the feet, meaning those doing the timers would have no potential landing deductions while those doing handsprings would. (unless you made everyone compete a timer, which might work in an elite stream, but wouldn't be fair in our JO stream because some kids never get beyond, or have the desire to get beyond level 7/8 or ever move on to flipping vaults)

I love the training vault yo stack mats behind table. I had hoped that this would be instituted the last cycle.

wandrewsjr--i thought the point of every level is to master skills to be able to build on those skills for the next level. I'm sorry if a kid never intends to move beyond a level 7....the rules should not be catered to those who wish to stay stagnant or quit in a year. If they don't like level 7, they can compete in platinum xcel.

 

[Jenny]

Excellent explanation, coachp. Also a correctly done timer would land essentially on the back. So you would have vaults that land on the back on a mat stack competing against vaults landing on the feet, meaning those doing the timers would have no potential landing deductions while those doing handsprings would. (unless you made everyone compete a timer, which might work in an elite stream, but wouldn't be fair in our JO stream because some kids never get beyond, or have the desire to get beyond level 7/8 or ever move on to flipping vaults)

We have that happen at comps here it isn't a problem. Choice of vaults some with and some without landing penalties . They can include handspring to stand on mat stack fall forwards which isn't so hard.

 

[cbifoja]

Can someone give a source on the information that the coach/gymnast will not have access to the score before deciding on whether or not to take a second vault?

 

[munchkin3]

Those were great videos.....I'm so glad to see that our foreign coaches are doing all these timers.....they start the chenko timers at L3/4....(USA).
The Level 3 Great Britain looks exactly like the timer our level 8/9 are working.

I have never been able to comprehend how judging on vault is done.....seems like the most difficult apparatus to judge.

 

[raenndrops]

Here is theproblem that I see.. Lets take a look at the handspring which is a handspring front timer, (yes you kids are all doing timers, unless they are twisting). They judge it a certain way and reward a certain technique, which absolutely does not correspond to a correct front handspring front timer!! Never has! So the handspring is being taught and judged to reward an incorrect timer.... Now do we want the same thing to happen with the chenko entry? or the Tsuk entry? What if (like the handspring) they decide they want a nice pretty fully extended high entry, and reward this entry? Next thing you will see is everyone doing incorrect entries to get scores.... This is happening already and has been going on for decades ...... The result will be the same, kids with high scoring front handspring never doing front handspring fronts because they can't. So while I would like to see a timer put into the code, I fear with almost certainty the judges would start rewarding what they perceive as the pretty vault instead of the effective vault.

I understand what you are saying, but all of the vaults I listed are already possibilities at level 8 ... the start values are just too low when compared to the handspring. I think these specific ones should be available at level 7.

 

[flippin out]

I would like to see the training vault to stacked mats at L7. That way they are not going from a front handspring at L7 for a 10.0 SV, to a Flipped Pike (yurchenko or tsuk) for a 10.0. It's just to big of a jump. I don't want a timer to feet (as stated earlier, that just promotes incorrect form). But the timer to flat on mats sounds like a great option.

 

[Aero]

@coachp | I both agree and disagree at the same time. My qualm is that despite certain kids learning perfect front handspring vaults for compulsories, many of them still go on to compete great front handspring fronts on vault years later. Also, a good coach will teach the athlete how to differentiate between vaulting techniques. Using the great example you gave, a "technically perfect" front handspring vault can prove to be an inefficient method of progressing to front handspring fronts, so why not teach them the correct technique for both, as well as teaching the kids why they are different, as well as how to differentiate between the two techniques? It's the same as teaching kids the two round-off techniques for saltos and handsprings; it's essential that kids know the difference between round-offs for height, and round-offs for distance. In fact, their are a massive amount of skills in gymnastics that require slight variations in technique compared to the base form of the skill.

I also feel that worrying about the idea that timer vaults can teach bad habits is making a big deal out of something that's really not. Something to realize is that almost every drill a coach decides to use for teaching any skill, no matter how effective it may be, usually has a disadvantage or two. For instance, a lot of standing back tuck drills have the athlete doing them with slight backward travel, like off a panel mat or into a pit, but the ideal model of that skill requires it to be done perfectly in place, with no travel in any direction other than upwards. Some would argue that this teaches a bad habit to the athlete, but the benefits they gain from the drills, especially confidence, far outweigh the disadvantages. Plus, a lot of these small mistakes can be cleaned up later, or cross trained at the same time with other drills that focus on correct form for that specific part of the skill. I look at the vault timer idea in the same way. I honestly think it's really not a bad start to learning those skills, we coaches just have to teach our girls the differences!

As for me proposing a possible idea/solution, perhaps we should make a rule that has gymnasts compete a timer (one from a list of different timers for other possible future vaults), but judge everything up to the landing. This would insure that gymnasts are still going full power and doing the vault timer as it should be done for the actual future skill, rather than making sure they land perfect (which means they'd have to hold back a bit and perform slightly incorrect technique) just to get a good score.

I like this discussion.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

How many levels are kids competing handsprings? Basically up to level 7. Then in 8, they have to flip a vault from a different family or twist the handspring (which isn't exactly the future of vault). The high scoring handsprings are absolutely the wrong technique to develop the handspring front. If done correctly leading up to a handspring front, the girl would be over rotating.
I believe level 7 should have no landing deductions and should be done to stacked mats. Give bonuses for yurchenko or Tsuk timers that snap to their backs without pikeing. There are so many creative options that need to be implemented. Level 8 vault is terrifying.

 

[wallinbl]

Having been at two gyms with very different approaches to teaching flipping vaults, I'd guess that most of the scary stuff comes from gyms that wait to long to start teaching the flipping vaults. Old gym wouldn't even start it until after level 7 season ended. Their gymnasts spend level 8 scaring everyone. New gym is teaching half ons in level 4, and various timers and flips into pits throughout 5 & 7. When level 8 starts, they're all flipping them just fine. There are no FHS vaults for them at level 8.

 

[profmom]

I don't think we can blame this all on the girls' doing FHS for too long. The boys have a progressive system (and yes, I know some of you coaches don't like the progressions!) changing every year, leading from flatback vaults to Yamash!tas and only incorporating FHS for Level 6. And guess what -- a lot of them STILL do scary flipping vaults at L8 and up. I think too many programs simply wait too long to start working on them, using their vault rotations to perfect compulsory vaults instead of just getting them good enough and then doing progressions.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

I completely agree that coaches are waiting too long to start progressions for more advanced vaults. I just feel that level 7 front handsprings aren't doing anything to further prepare them for more advanced vaulting. The coaches that are successfully teaching good vaults for level 8 are not focusing on that handspring... Those coaches' kids are not the ones that you have to worry about. There are a lot of scary vaults that are from lack of preparation. I believe that preparation would be started sooner and be more extensive with that level 7 season being utilized as time to develop proper level 8 vaults.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

@coachp | I both agree and disagree at the same time. My qualm is that despite certain kids learning perfect front handspring vaults for compulsories, many of them still go on to compete great front handspring fronts on vault years later. Also, a good coach will teach the athlete how to differentiate between vaulting techniques. Using the great example you gave, a "technically perfect" front handspring vault can prove to be an inefficient method of progressing to front handspring fronts, so why not teach them the correct technique for both, as well as teaching the kids why they are different, as well as how to differentiate between the two techniques? It's the same as teaching kids the two round-off techniques for saltos and handsprings; it's essential that kids know the difference between round-offs for height, and round-offs for distance. In fact, their are a massive amount of skills in gymnastics that require slight variations in technique compared to the base form of the skill.

I also feel that worrying about the idea that timer vaults can teach bad habits is making a big deal out of something that's really not. Something to realize is that almost every drill a coach decides to use for teaching any skill, no matter how effective it may be, usually has a disadvantage or two. For instance, a lot of standing back tuck drills have the athlete doing them with slight backward travel, like off a panel mat or into a pit, but the ideal model of that skill requires it to be done perfectly in place, with no travel in any direction other than upwards. Some would argue that this teaches a bad habit to the athlete, but the benefits they gain from the drills, especially confidence, far outweigh the disadvantages. Plus, a lot of these small mistakes can be cleaned up later, or cross trained at the same time with other drills that focus on correct form for that specific part of the skill. I look at the vault timer idea in the same way. I honestly think it's really not a bad start to learning those skills, we coaches just have to teach our girls the differences!

As for me proposing a possible idea/solution, perhaps we should make a rule that has gymnasts compete a timer (one from a list of different timers for other possible future vaults), but judge everything up to the landing. This would insure that gymnasts are still going full power and doing the vault timer as it should be done for the actual future skill, rather than making sure they land perfect (which means they'd have to hold back a bit and perform slightly incorrect technique) just to get a good score.

I like this discussion.

The kids that I suspect will Handspring front, execute the handspring with the correct technique for years (and get a deduction for it in the lower levels). I have seen a lot of horrible handspring fronts out there, resulting in major injuries. The Handspring front only appears safe, it's is actually very dangerous. I hand pick a select few kids to do it, currently I have a two generation gap in my program because none of the kids fit my criteria. As far as the round off, entry, imagine if the judges decide they want a straight body entry, no arching , no piking, just like the handspring entry, (which is wrong). Fixing an entry is pretty time consuming and sometimes impossible. So as long as they don't judge the shape coming into the vault or board, (which they will) we will be fine. But the bottom line is there are various shape differences and board positions that work for different girls with the Chenko, and once we start judging it, that could go away and be limited to just one. The Chenko entry snaps from a arch to straight to create power, The front handspring front also also gets rotation form shape change, yet it is judged for years to eliminate any shape change. It's why you don't see FHSF very much in my opinion.

 

[gymdog]

It's why you don't see FHSF very much in my opinion.

I don't know, personally I think it has a lot to do with danger and because you can't do it in level 8, so essentially the most competitive optionals already have another flipping vault developed. By the time they get to that level where you can do it, I'm pretty sure some kids could make the change to a more powerful entry but choose not to because of fear, the stress of the forward landing, and the fact that they already have a vault. I'm not sure USAG really wants to go out of their way to encourage this vault family for a couple of the reasons above. I'm not really sure what the answer is.