Parents Missing practice for homework and tests

[SHELOVESGYM]

I don't want to get too off topic and enter into a debate about education in various countries, but the irony is that for me, the system in Australia and UK and I know it's this way in some other countries has always seemed like it would be more pressure on the kids. I am always so surprised to hear of little kids studying for and taking exams and the results being posted to everyone -that sort of thing. In the UK for example, I know it's not unusual to rank very young children in terms of their exam scores. To me this seems like so much more pressure than being graded on a combination of homework, class participation, class presentations, classwork that isn't exams and maybe the occasional more form exam or assessment but even in 4th grade my child has not yet had many of these. When she has had the occasional test it wasn't something that was emphasized too much and I didn't feel like it created any real pressure to do well b/c there are so many other things that they are assessed on. All this to say that its really just a very different way of doing things here versus there.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

In the UK for example, I know it's not unusual to rank very young children in terms of their exam scores.

Okay, in our system they are tested at year 2 (7) to give a baseline, then at year 6 (11). The results are not posted, they are sent to the parents, they schools results are posted though. ie 45% of children got higher than expected, 50 % expected, 5 % below expected.

The results of year 6 testing are used to place the child in secondary school, together with the teachers assessment. For example, my eldest bombed his year 6 tests, but was still placed in higher sets as his teacher assessment told a different story.

Bear in mind that school finishes here at 16, where they take their final exams. From 16-18 they do a further qualification that can be purely academic, exam based or more practical assignment based.

 

[mommyof1]

I don't want to get too off topic and enter into a debate about education in various countries, but the irony is that for me, the system in Australia and UK and I know it's this way in some other countries has always seemed like it would be more pressure on the kids. I am always so surprised to hear of little kids studying for and taking exams and the results being posted to everyone -that sort of thing.

I feel as if here in the States we have the worst of both worlds. There is excessive homework, including tons of busywork, AND there are high-stakes exams. My daughter had to achieve a certain score on a state exam in third grade in order to be eligible even to apply to a particular high school program five years later.

To make things worse, our school actually tells parents they are expected to review and correct all homework with the child and to teach research and writing skills at home. The school devotes all class time to getting all the kids up to a basic level of apparent proficiency so they can all pass the state tests. They don't care what the kids actually understand, just whether they can get the lowest passing score on the test, and anything that's not on the multiple-choice test is left to parents to teach at home. The kids are expected to turn in reports and essays without ever being taught the requisite skills in the classroom. This system might work for a child who spends very little time on extracurricular activities and has a SAHM with the time and educational background to tutor the child for a couple of hours every night, but for working parents and those who want to raise well-rounded kids it's a nightmare.

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

Here in our school board in Canada, homework does not count towards grades either. With dd's program she actually does get some assignments to complete online on her own time, but most of her homework is reviewing concepts taught that day in class.

 

[twinmomma]

The difference in the US is that the standardized "high stakes" exams have ZERO impact on a student's grade. Those exams are for the progress tracking of the school, and are just used as benchmarking for the kids but meaningless in the overall scheme until SAT/ACT in high school.

Having a child who routinely performs better when given time to do the work and struggles under exam conditions, the UK/Aussie model would be a disaster for her.

 

[mommyof1]

The difference in the US is that the standardized "high stakes" exams have ZERO impact on a student's grade. Those exams are for the progress tracking of the school, and are just used as benchmarking for the kids but meaningless in the overall scheme until SAT/ACT in high school.

Our state exams do not have direct bearing on the grade, but must be passed in order to receive course credit and are used for placement purposes.

 

[Texasmomof3]

Keep in mind, my US friends, that there are many great colleges and universities in the US that don't require applicants to have 4.0 GPAs, 95th plus percentile SAT/ACT scores, and proof of leadership in 45 extracurricular activities. If you are not in CA, MI, MA, or VA, you might consider looking first at your state's flagship state university. State universities often do not have the highly paid professional promotional people to trumpet their accomplishments and programs to the heavens, but they often have comparable accomplishments and programs, and most flagships have world class faculty who teach more undergraduate classes, particularly in the social sciences and the humanities, than faculty at private institutions. (The four states I mentioned do have flagships into which it's more difficult to secure admission.) Your child does not need to go to Harvard, Stanford, or the University of Chicago to get a fantastic undergraduate education that will open many doors for the future.

The Texas flagship only guarantees admission if you graduate in the top 7% of your high school class. It is a fantastic school (I have a child there right now, in fact), but you won't get in if you pick and choose which homework assignments you do. You won't have the grades.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

The Texas flagship only guarantees admission if you graduate in the top 7% of your high school class. It is a fantastic school (I have a child there right now, in fact), but you won't get in if you pick and choose which homework assignments you do. You won't have the grades.

I don't know the actual numbers as far as acceptance rate, but in North Carolina, UNC is very competitive to get into also.

We've been lucky so far with my dd and homework, but she is only in 3rd grade so she doesn't have a ton yet. I have 2 older boys, one in 7th and one in 9th grade so I am familiar with homework in later grades. But even between the 2 of them, it really comes down to personality. If I was just looking at my older one, I would have thought homework was out of control. He could and would spend hours a night on it starting from about 2nd grade on. And they weren't pleasant hours for him or me. Projects were torture. He is very distracted and slow, but also extremely detail oriented and precise. He's always done well at school, but it hasn't been easy for him. My middle son on the other hand never has homework, even though he has the exact same teachers/assignments/etc as his brother. He is very smart and things tend to come easy for him. So he just gets his homework done at school or in 10 minutes when he gets home and that's that. He is messy and doesn't care about details or neatness nearly as much as his brother.

Anyway, back to the OP, we haven't been in that situation but if I had to guess, I think dd's coaches would probably be unhappy about missing gymnastics for homework/tests. Heck, they get mad at dd because she is 10 minutes late to practice every day because they start practice 15 minutes after school gets out and it takes me that long to get there. Other parents apparently check their kids out of school early in order to make it, but that isn't an option at dd's school. It's been 2 1/2 years of this and some of their coaches still question her every time she is late. They do seem to have the opinion that gymnastics comes first period. I do not agree with them and I would keep dd from practice if she needed to for school, more so when she gets older and the homework/projects/tests are much more important. I personally feel that the coaches at dd's gym have this unrealistic opinion about gymnastics being more important than school because they are younger and don't have children themselves. They are good coaches but I feel they have a hard time thinking of these girls as students or as someone's child instead of as a gymnast. We've always stressed to our dd that we want her to do her best and have fun but that school comes first.

 

[profmom]

UT Austin has an acceptance rate of about 40%. Plenty of people who are not guaranteed admission through the 7% plan nonetheless get in. Their admission standards are higher than many but certainly not impossible to reach, and are attainable even by students who notch the occasional B. Googling around, I see that in 2015, UNC was around 28%, but keep in mind that even those numbers (and Berkeley's 17%) are not the 6-10% acceptance rates of the top private colleges. Based on trends in higher ed, I would also expect to see acceptance rates at many flagships rise over the next five years.

My point is that a lot of US folks get themselves really wound up about their children's chances for admission to a tiny handful of extremely selective schools rather than looking at all of the excellent options they have, some of which are right in their own backyards -- and therefore put too much pressure on their children to focus on GPAs, test scores, and building Potemkin resumes.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

it seems its a self-perpetuating vicious circle, the parents don't seem to want it, pretty sure the kids don't want it, even the educators here don't seem to want it, but because everyone else does it, it has to be done.

I can see why homeschooling, which is so rare here, is a popular option.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

UT Austin has an acceptance rate of about 40%. Plenty of people who are not guaranteed admission through the 7% plan nonetheless get in. Their admission standards are higher than many but certainly not impossible to reach, and are attainable even by students who notch the occasional B. Googling around, I see that in 2015, UNC was around 28%, but keep in mind that even those numbers (and Berkeley's 17%) are not the 6-10% acceptance rates of the top private colleges. Based on trends in higher ed, I would also expect to see acceptance rates at many flagships rise over the next five years.

My point is that a lot of US folks get themselves really wound up about their children's chances for admission to a tiny handful of extremely selective schools rather than looking at all of the excellent options they have, some of which are right in their own backyards -- and therefore put too much pressure on their children to focus on GPAs, test scores, and building Potemkin resumes.

Maybe it is a regional thing, because I don't really see many parents here stressing about getting into Ivy League schools. I know very few kids that are even applying for schools like Harvard or Stanford. But UNC and Duke really are quite difficult to get into here and you do need high GPA's, test scores, extras, etc. I agree with you about it all being too much pressure for a lot of kids though. And there definitely are some very good schools that aren't as difficult to get into. My oldest is in 9th grade and I already know that he doesn't have the drive to really excel at the level he would need to get into a top school. But I can't make him do more than he is capable of or willing to do. He is getting good grades and he has found one club he is interested in and that's about all I can ask for. He's never going to be the student body president, on the football team, leading the debate club, etc. I hope that he chooses to go to college and that he is accepted into a school that he wants to attend. Both my husband and I went to UNC, so I was hoping he would want to go there, but I am not one of those high pressure parents.

 

[skschlag]

UT Austin has an acceptance rate of about 40%. Plenty of people who are not guaranteed admission through the 7% plan nonetheless get in. Their admission standards are higher than many but certainly not impossible to reach, and are attainable even by students who notch the occasional B. Googling around, I see that in 2015, UNC was around 28%, but keep in mind that even those numbers (and Berkeley's 17%) are not the 6-10% acceptance rates of the top private colleges. Based on trends in higher ed, I would also expect to see acceptance rates at many flagships rise over the next five years.

My point is that a lot of US folks get themselves really wound up about their children's chances for admission to a tiny handful of extremely selective schools rather than looking at all of the excellent options they have, some of which are right in their own backyards -- and therefore put too much pressure on their children to focus on GPAs, test scores, and building Potemkin resumes.

I agree! At this point I am just hoping my oldest gets into community college Seems the best option for him!

 

[twinmomma]

I agree! At this point I am just hoping my oldest gets into community college Seems the best option for him!

In truth, it's the best option for MOST kids. Parents just don't like to hear that. Most kids have zero idea what they want to do, and going to a 4 year forces them to declare that and pigeon hole themselves. Two years later when they realize they changed their mind it's a HUGE ordeal for many to change majors. My personal opinion is all kids who don't want to be doctors should go to community college and spend some time trying new things before deciding what they want to do with the rest of their life. That cuts the cost of college considerably and also means that kids who go away to a four year in year 3 are more mature and less likely to lose focus partying, etc...

 

[SHELOVESGYM]

it seems its a self-perpetuating vicious circle, the parents don't seem to want it, pretty sure the kids don't want it, even the educators here don't seem to want it, but because everyone else does it, it has to be done.

I can see why homeschooling, which is so rare here, is a popular option.

I would not say that homeschooling is at all popular in the US. I don't know a single person who homeschools aside from on this board. In fact, where I live the general consensus is that it's a very very odd and unusual thing (and I'm not trying to pass judgement on homeschooling, but this is my observation of how it is perceived in the area that I live in). I think it's safe to say that a board for a sport as intense as gymnastics is a good place to find homeschoolers, but it is definitely not the norm in the US.

 

[SHELOVESGYM]

In truth, it's the best option for MOST kids. Parents just don't like to hear that. Most kids have zero idea what they want to do, and going to a 4 year forces them to declare that and pigeon hole themselves. Two years later when they realize they changed their mind it's a HUGE ordeal for many to change majors. My personal opinion is all kids who don't want to be doctors should go to community college and spend some time trying new things before deciding what they want to do with the rest of their life. That cuts the cost of college considerably and also means that kids who go away to a four year in year 3 are more mature and less likely to lose focus partying, etc...

I disagree that declaring a major "pigeon holes" the kids. With most majors offered in college kids can go on to most any career. I've even know English or History majors who have gone on to medical school -they just took a year or two of pre-med in their last year and maybe the following year to be ready. I could go on and on listing the majors and careers of people I know -in more cases than not there is no correlation.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I feel as if here in the States we have the worst of both worlds. There is excessive homework, including tons of busywork, AND there are high-stakes exams. My daughter had to achieve a certain score on a state exam in third grade in order to be eligible even to apply to a particular high school program five years later.

To make things worse, our school actually tells parents they are expected to review and correct all homework with the child and to teach research and writing skills at home. The school devotes all class time to getting all the kids up to a basic level of apparent proficiency so they can all pass the state tests. They don't care what the kids actually understand, just whether they can get the lowest passing score on the test, and anything that's not on the multiple-choice test is left to parents to teach at home. The kids are expected to turn in reports and essays without ever being taught the requisite skills in the classroom. This system might work for a child who spends very little time on extracurricular activities and has a SAHM with the time and educational background to tutor the child for a couple of hours every night, but for working parents and those who want to raise well-rounded kids it's a nightmare.

What is the busywork exactly? I have a little hard time understanding that word - maybe my language doesn't even have a translation for it

Another question - is it common that all the parents are so involved with their child's homework? Or is it just some of the most diligent parents who have time and energy for that? And are the parents involved all the way from the kindergarten to the graduation or just the early grades? I can't remember a single time that my parents would have checked my homework - it just wasn't expected. I didn't even let them know if I had homework or not and they never asked. I only showed my graded tests and report cards once a year and that was enough. We also had scheduled meetings twice a year that the child, the teacher and the parent attended together and that was the only way that my parents were involved.

Homework isn't graded here either but the teachers usually check it up at school to see how the child is doing. If there are multiple wrong answers and the teacher draws a conclusion that the child has not fully understood the subject he/she takes time with the child to re-learn the subject. I thought that this was the ultimate reasoning behind the homework?

I was a good student and I usually only completed the homework that I thought was useful for me (i.e math, physics and chemistry). In high school teachers don't check homework but the students correct their own answers, that usually happens at the beginning of the lesson. If you struggle with the homework or schoolwork or both you can just ask the teacher to stay with you after the school day and they can give you one-on-one time and find a way to make you understand better. We had some projects like essays in languages that needed to be returned to the teachers but we could write them whenever we wanted, at school or at home or both. Activity in class usually affects the grade but it can only push the grade up, not down (with the exception of PE, music, art class, handicrafts and domestic science that don't have tests).

 

[profmom]

Our schools (junior high and high school) encourage helicoptering around checking grades but no teachers expect parents to be helping with homework. We have never been much for checking grades but started last year. Our kids have asked us to stop, so the deal is we will talk about grades if they give us a reason to discuss them in their interim reports and term reports. For most classes, homework is collected and graded, but students can get help from teachers if they muck something up badly.

As for college majors -- if a student is in a liberal arts program (which includes sciences), yes, any major can lead to almost any career if the student is ready to backfill any needed basics that were missed along the way (i.e., the Philosophy major may need to take some bio prior to sitting for the MCAT). If a student has aspirations to enter graduate or professional school, the wisest path is to major in something that s/he loves, as the deep interest and engagement are more likely to produce the kind of successful undergraduate record that will earn approval from the graduate admissions committee. Pre-professional majors are significantly less flexible, and I encourage students to pick things like business/accounting/marketing up as minors if at all. A political science or sociology or history major will learn good writing, critical reading, and critical reasoning skills in most institutions. Pre-professional majors may downpedal these broad skills in favor of focusing on very specific task-oriented skills that are less translatable to other careers.

Studies have shown pretty consistently that if you want a student to enter college and graduate in four years, the best way to do that is to have the student enroll in a four-year program, live on campus, and connect immediately with living-learning communities, especially if the student is enrolled in a large institution.

Sorry for the hijack but this stuff is important.

 

[mommyof1]

What is the busywork exactly? I have a little hard time understanding that word - maybe my language doesn't even have a translation for it

"Busywork" is work designed to keep the kids busy without any clear instructional benefit. Example: Every week, my child has to hand-copy definitions of her spelling words into a notebook. It usually takes her close to an hour. Copying may help the kids remember the definitions, but there are other ways to study that may be more useful to a particular child, and the benefit of the assignment may not justify the amount of time it takes. In short, busywork is mindless drudgery that doesn't help the child learn and can lead to negative attitudes towards school.

Another question - is it common that all the parents are so involved with their child's homework? Or is it just some of the most diligent parents who have time and energy for that? And are the parents involved all the way from the kindergarten to the graduation or just the early grades? I can't remember a single time that my parents would have checked my homework - it just wasn't expected

When I was a kid, parents were not expected to check homework. This expectation may not be universal now, but it's made explicit in my daughter's school. The teachers don't want to spend time correcting the homework in class or explaining wrong answers to individual kids. They also may be assuming that the parents are helping the kids to give them an advantage, so the kids aren't going to be turning in any assignments with mistakes. I don't know how many parents actually check the homework, but all the parents I know well say they do.

My daughter is in the fifth grade, which is the final year of elementary school in our district. The kids are aged 9 - 11. I am hoping that the expectation of parental involvement diminishes as she gets older, but based on what I hear from other parents there is still a lot of involvement in middle school (grades 6 - 8). These kids have to learn to do their work independently at some point, or they will face serious problems when they get to college.

Homework isn't graded here either but the teachers usually check it up at school to see how the child is doing. If there are multiple wrong answers and the teacher draws a conclusion that the child has not fully understood the subject he/she takes time with the child to re-learn the subject. I thought that this was the ultimate reasoning behind the homework?

That's what I thought too, but our teachers either don't have that kind of time or don't want to take it.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I don't want to get too off topic and enter into a debate about education in various countries, but the irony is that for me, the system in Australia and UK and I know it's this way in some other countries has always seemed like it would be more pressure on the kids. I am always so surprised to hear of little kids studying for and taking exams and the results being posted to everyone -that sort of thing. In the UK for example, I know it's not unusual to rank very young children in terms of their exam scores. To me this seems like so much more pressure than being graded on a combination of homework, class participation, class presentations, classwork that isn't exams and maybe the occasional more form exam or assessment but even in 4th grade my child has not yet had many of these. When she has had the occasional test it wasn't something that was emphasized too much and I didn't feel like it created any real pressure to do well b/c there are so many other things that they are assessed on. All this to say that its really just a very different way of doing things here versus there.

I hear what you are saying, it does seem like there would be more pressure because all the emphasis is on assessment pieces. But there isn't because kids in the UK and Australia can't "fail" a grade like in the USA. Sure kids can get failing grades, but it doesn't mean they are held back. Our schools also recognise that Fai,I h grades don't nessesarily mean a lack of intelligence or understanding.

In the UK they believe in social promotion, kids are promoted to the next grade based on their age, they all move up at the end of the year and co tinge through school with their same age peers. Someone from the UK may want to jump in here and clarify, I have family over there and this is what I have been told.

In Australia we have a middle of the road system. Kids can repeat a grade but it is usually for the purposes of extra time for maturity rather than failing and parents, students and teachers make the desicion together. If a teacher wanted to hold a child back but the parent did not, the child would move up.

Engrave into further education after high school here is not impacted by what they do in the whole of their high school career. I can't imagine things a kid does in 9th grade affecting their college entrance. How does one expect that a child's achievements at 14 could really give any indication of where they are at by 18. In my area only what happens in 12th grade affects their university entry score. And even this is not as big of a deal, if kids don't get into university straight after school there are many other pathways to get there. Kids can take their time, and have a year or however long they want to attend university, lots of kids go out and do other things like travel or work and then head back to university as older adults with a clearer idea of the oath they want to take in life.

 

[Aussie_coach]

But I also believe that if you are asked to complete something by an authority figure, whether it's busy work or not, then you have an obligation to do it. I am asked to complete things by my boss that I deem not necessary or "busy work" but I do it. If I don't do it, I risk the chance of being fired. That's my whole beef with the not completing home thing. As an adult, you are going to be asked to do somethings that you don't want to do. But as a responsible adult, you do it. I can't imagine not teaching my child that.

And I can't imagine teaching my children that! Blind obedience to authority does not seem like a great life lesson.